F500ONE wrote:The point being made////the Triangle renders Tyson useless although Tyson won a chip in a non Triangle system?

* The Triangle utilizes Kwame Brown more effectively than Tyson

* The Triangle utilizes Mbenga more effectively than Tyson

* The Triangle utilizes Chris Mihm more effectively than Tyson

* The Triangle utilizes Medvenko more effectively than Tyson

I thought the whole purpose of having the Triangle system here it changes peoples lives, except Tyson and Ray that is

exactly!! that is my point... I would love to see how the magic dust of the triangle is going to help calderon defend these quick guards in the east...

EnySpree wrote:

Dagger wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Why are people so down on dalembert? Compared to Tyson, dalemberts stats are arguably better over their careers.

Because he's pretty old now and has played for a lot of bad teams. I agree that he used to be a valuable player and hope he still has some gas in the tank.

well Sam is only 1 year older than Tyson so that argument is no good....

I just think it has to do with reputation....Sam had a bad rep in Philly for being stupid and lazy, yet he still put up solid numbers.

Tyson has the rep of being a champion and a leader, yet he spent a few years with us and that totally is a lie. Even the USA team thought so by benching him and he was their only true center.

I think Sam is better than Tyson...if he can survive the summer I think Sam will prove it here in NY

tkf wrote:

F500ONE wrote:The point being made////the Triangle renders Tyson useless although Tyson won a chip in a non Triangle system?

* The Triangle utilizes Kwame Brown more effectively than Tyson

* The Triangle utilizes Mbenga more effectively than Tyson

* The Triangle utilizes Chris Mihm more effectively than Tyson

* The Triangle utilizes Medvenko more effectively than Tyson

I thought the whole purpose of having the Triangle system here it changes peoples lives, except Tyson and Ray that is

exactly!! that is my point... I would love to see how the magic dust of the triangle is going to help calderon defend these quick guards in the east...

Ts that compared to the slow guards in the west? A west that ususually play at a faster pace. He will probably perform terribly like always but I don't understand the statement.

Dalembert is on the decline and if it was up to me i'd play him like that. Cole on the other hand looked really good in the Triangle this summer. He didn't look like a fish out of water. He looked comfortable and strong. Even our other bigs have more of a chance to succeed in the Triangle than Tyson. Smith, STAT and Bargs are all capable of posting, catching, turning and making a jumper or move to the basket without hesitation. Tyson is just a bad match for this system. As for defense, this team isn't really built to be a strong defensive team. We can expect that there will be some problems in that area, but if the offense is more efficient that can help to overcome a bit of a decrease in defensive strength. IMO Felton made his defense even worse with his awful offense. When Felton jacked bad shots it would lead to easy points for the other team. He can't keep up with faster PG's and he really has no court vision either.

That said the biggest problem this team had was Woodson not recognizing what his best lineups and worse lineups were!!! I was screaming this all last year and really until you look at his lineups it's not always so clear what worked and what didn't.

1	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | J. Smith | A. Stoudemire	  286:41    +0.6
2	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | T. Hardaway | J. Smith	  195:17    -0.4
3	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | R. Felton | K. Martin | I. Shumpert	  145:51    +7.0
4	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | I. Shumpert | J. Smith	  141:24    +13.9
5	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | P. Prigioni | I. Shumpert  133:53    +14.6
6	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | R. Felton | I. Shumpert | J. Smith	  126:11    +10.8
7	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | T. Chandler | R. Felton | I. Shumpert   90:52    -23.7
8	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | P. Prigioni | J. Smith	   73:20    +13.2
9	C. Anthony | R. Felton | I. Shumpert | J. Smith | A. Stoudemire	   71:55    -0.3
10	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | K. Martin | I. Shumpert | B. Udrih	   66:33    -2.5
11	C. Anthony | R. Felton | T. Hardaway | J. Smith | A. Stoudemire	   60:43    -20.9
12	C. Anthony | T. Hardaway | P. Prigioni | J. Smith | A. Stoudemire  57:11    -16.0
13	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | T. Hardaway | P. Prigioni | J. Smith	   50:13    +12.1
14	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | T. Hardaway | P. Prigioni | I. Shumpert 48:39    +7.5
15	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | T. Hardaway | I. Shumpert   44:02    -6.7
16	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | P. Prigioni | J. Smith | A. Stoudemire  42:54    -45.8
17	T. Hardaway | K. Martin | T. Murry | J. Smith | A. Stoudemire	   42:43    -27.7
18	C. Aldrich | S. Brown | T. Hardaway | T. Murry | J. Tyler	   40:01    -30.5
19	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | P. Prigioni | I. Shumpert | J. Smith	   38:41    -4.5
20	A. Bargnani | T. Chandler | T. Hardaway | J. Smith | B. Udrih	   37:27    -33.3

So many of his lineups were simply putrid. Guys were slumping like Felton, JR and Shump in particular, which made his job harder. The key this year is to have more consistency and not jumping from lineup to lineup. Stick with what works best and determine that early.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Dagger wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Anyone wonder why Cuban wanted Tyson more than Calderon and Dalembert? These guys combined had on/off +/- of almost -10 last year. They both have much bigger flaws than Tyson does. It's quite rare that Cuban gets fleeced in trades.

It's very obvious why Dallas wanted Tyson and it has little to with his performance last season. Calderon plays only one half of the game and Tyson only plays one half. Except he couldn't be counted on to even do that, last year he was a 15 million deadweight malcontent loser. Dalembert could be the biggest scrub in the world but as long as he wants to be here (instead of dogging it and throwing teammates under the bus) he's a better fit than Flu Fugazi Never Made A Lay-up In My Life Tysoft Chandler

The team was much better on offense when Tyson was on the court last year though. His offensive rebounds and efficiency had a clear, statistically measurable positive impact on the team's offense. Tyson actually helps his team on the half of the court you're not giving him credit for. Calderon kills his own team on the half you're correctly identifying as a problem for him.

Just asking but where would he get those points when he is not playing in a heavy High pnr offense?

BigDaddyG wrote:

nixluva wrote:The question was is Sam/Cole better or equal to Tyson. For this team in this system I think they are. You don't really get to the answer simply by lookin at numbers. Numbers can lie to you depending on the system. Anybody ever see how PG numbers change in MDA's system? It really does matter who you play for. For this team now we're going to be playing in a system where the big man touches the ball a lot and has to make decisions and passes on a regular basis. From my recollection Tyson is not that kind of player. He's not good with the ball. Not good passing. Not good catching the bounce pass. Not good at holding his post position. His legs are like twigs.

Both Sam and Cole have proven more turnover prone than Tyson. I know Cole had a good summer league game, but it was still just a summer league game. Honestly, I'm not even sure Cole will be our second string center. I see us going small quite a bit with STAT or Bargs at the 5.

tkf wrote:

F500ONE wrote:The point being made////the Triangle renders Tyson useless although Tyson won a chip in a non Triangle system?

* The Triangle utilizes Kwame Brown more effectively than Tyson

* The Triangle utilizes Mbenga more effectively than Tyson

* The Triangle utilizes Chris Mihm more effectively than Tyson

* The Triangle utilizes Medvenko more effectively than Tyson

I thought the whole purpose of having the Triangle system here it changes peoples lives, except Tyson and Ray that is

exactly!! that is my point... I would love to see how the magic dust of the triangle is going to help calderon defend these quick guards in the east...

So predictable... Phil Jackson signs Melo so the system that won 11 titles is reduced to "magic dust."

You should put that in your "keys to the game" monologues.

Back to topic... the answer is YES, Cole + Sam are at least = or > to Tyson. 3 straight years Tyson's FG%, PPG and games played have gone south. He missed about 30 games along with declining production.

Funny how you guys say the whole league got better and put on your negative spin.

If the Knicks traded two picks, a good PG prospect, their starting center and starting PG for two guys from a 37 win team comming off career lows compounded by things like gun charges and missing tons of games you would be destroying Phil daily. But in the land of Knick-hate we have magic dust and Melo farts.

F500ONE wrote:There's no Knick hate.

Maybe certain players aren't a fancy but no hate besides what you're fabricating

I think the whole league got better personally.

It's going to be tough for every team to win, I see more parity

Some fans didn't want Felton as a replacement for Lin.

They wanted different, if/////via trade was an option

Were they wrong?

Were they Knick hating, or did they not like Felton before, during, and after being a Knick

Keep it basketball, not personal.

Maybe we can go places, learn about not only our team but the league and it's evolution

smackeddog wrote:Not a fan of Dalambert. I remember Sixers fans used to HATE him- and that was when he was at his peak! Also he got suspended/ benched a couple of times last season, I think for sleeping in/being late. However lets be honest, Tyson last year became useless- a chemistry killer, he quit on the coach, didn't follow our schemes and blamed everyone else but himself, and stopped even trying on defense. I know Woody was awful, but Tyson played an important role in that disaster of a season.

your right about the Sam and Philly, but they expected him to be the next Ratliff/Mutumbo and he just isnt that caliber of player. He was a late first rounder I believe who turned into a hell of a shot blocker. Good rebounded, but dope on offense and not the most warm and fuzzy chap.

He's a stop guy for us and will be challenged by Cole and Smith for minutes. Let the best big get the minutes.

fishmike wrote:

F500ONE wrote:There's no Knick hate.

Maybe certain players aren't a fancy but no hate besides what you're fabricating

I think the whole league got better personally.

It's going to be tough for every team to win, I see more parity

Some fans didn't want Felton as a replacement for Lin.

They wanted different, if/////via trade was an option

Were they wrong?

Were they Knick hating, or did they not like Felton before, during, and after being a Knick

Keep it basketball, not personal.

Maybe we can go places, learn about not only our team but the league and it's evolution

its not personal at all... You said Knicks would win what? 32-34 games? So after what happened last year how do you have them losing more games than they lost last year? When you say the whole league got better.... do you mean every team but the Knicks? Your posting alot.. just trying to get your meaning.

If it's not personal///why the lumping of posters to another?

I get generalizing opinion of stance to a group but when you single out, you're welcoming posted paybacks

Yes the whole league got better but we didn't get better enough to move from our 37win total.

The bottom half is where the main problem lies with competition

Philly is not going to lose 63gms

Bucks are not going to lose 67gms

Cleveland is not going to lose 49gms

Orlando is not going to lose 59gms

Boston is not going to lose 57gms

Detroit is not going to lose 53gms

Utah is not going to lose 57gms

Lakers are not going to lose 55gms

Pelicans are not going to lose 48gms

Denver is not going to lose 46gms

I see at least 6-12gm win increases with these teams. 1-2 would increase their margin by more than 12

2 teams who more than likely have no major movement compared to last season are Wolves[unless they make a trade] and Knicks.

Both could be 2-3gms better at best, more than likely worse

Primarily because of mediocre results.

It's really difficult to show major progress from mediocre when we didn't do enough to change in the off season

CrushAlot wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

fishmike wrote:

F500ONE wrote:There's no Knick hate.

Maybe certain players aren't a fancy but no hate besides what you're fabricating

I think the whole league got better personally.

It's going to be tough for every team to win, I see more parity

Some fans didn't want Felton as a replacement for Lin.

They wanted different, if/////via trade was an option

Were they wrong?

Were they Knick hating, or did they not like Felton before, during, and after being a Knick

Keep it basketball, not personal.

Maybe we can go places, learn about not only our team but the league and it's evolution

its not personal at all... You said Knicks would win what? 32-34 games? So after what happened last year how do you have them losing more games than they lost last year? When you say the whole league got better.... do you mean every team but the Knicks? Your posting alot.. just trying to get your meaning.

If it's not personal///why the lumping of posters to another?

I get generalizing opinion of stance to a group but when you single out, you're welcoming posted paybacks

Yes the whole league got better but we didn't get better enough to move from our 37win total.

The bottom half is where the main problem lies with competition

Philly is not going to lose 63gms

Bucks are not going to lose 67gms

Cleveland is not going to lose 49gms

Orlando is not going to lose 59gms

Boston is not going to lose 57gms

Detroit is not going to lose 53gms

Utah is not going to lose 57gms

Lakers are not going to lose 55gms

Pelicans are not going to lose 48gms

Denver is not going to lose 46gms

I see at least 6-12gm win increases with these teams. 1-2 would increase their margin by more than 12

2 teams who more than likely have no major movement compared to last season are Wolves[unless they make a trade] and Knicks.

Both could be 2-3gms better at best, more than likely worse

Primarily because of mediocre results.

It's really difficult to show major progress from mediocre when we didn't do enough to change in the off season

I disagree. Could more have gone wrong last year. Stability and a front office and coach on the same page gets three more wins minimally. Health, roster changes/upgrades and a lack of dysfunction and a trading of the saboteur should push the Knicks to at least 45 wins. I think they get at least 48 wins next year.

All of what you said applies to many of these teams above. I'm assuming all things being equal no tragedies or drama

Boston missed Rondo, Sullinger, Bradley for huge chunks of the season

Lakers no Kobe, Hill, Swaggy P, Nash, lame duck coach

Denver whole team nearly was injured

Pelicans Davis, Anderson, Jrue, Gordon injured

Bucks Mayo, Illyasova, Sanders injured, hired Kidd

Philly Noel injured, started tanking early//// dumped Turner and Hawes for decent scraps, lost like 20-30ms in a row this will not happen again

Cleveland has Lebron plus help

The left overs did much of the same//// including Detroit who got their front office in order and added talent.

There's nothing as of now suggesting we're smack dab better