Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:What do we get for keeping him? A .450 team with $30 mil less in cap space?

no you get the team you had 2 years ago, for starters

Only if you go out and grab 5 or 6 great role players, but we're in a much better situation if we do that regardless of what happens with Melo.

Who were our five/six "great" role players that year?

JR I guess and Kidd for part of the season. Who else?

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:What do we get for keeping him? A .450 team with $30 mil less in cap space?

no you get the team you had 2 years ago, for starters

Only if you go out and grab 5 or 6 great role players, but we're in a much better situation if we do that regardless of what happens with Melo.

Who were our five/six "great" role players that year?

JR I guess and Kidd for part of the season. Who else?

Get ready for the great explanation of how we would have 2 or 3 chips by now (or at least be sitting on great cap space and yoots and draft picks) had we only stayed with Gallo, Wilson, Moz and AR. That's four! And the invisible great players we would have made with our tremendous draft expertise! There's 5 and 6!

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

jrodmc wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:What do we get for keeping him? A .450 team with $30 mil less in cap space?

no you get the team you had 2 years ago, for starters

Only if you go out and grab 5 or 6 great role players, but we're in a much better situation if we do that regardless of what happens with Melo.

Who were our five/six "great" role players that year?

JR I guess and Kidd for part of the season. Who else?

Get ready for the great explanation of how we would have 2 or 3 chips by now (or at least be sitting on great cap space and yoots and draft picks) had we only stayed with Gallo, Wilson, Moz and AR. That's four! And the invisible great players we would have made with our tremendous draft expertise! There's 5 and 6!

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:What do we get for keeping him? A .450 team with $30 mil less in cap space?

no you get the team you had 2 years ago, for starters

Only if you go out and grab 5 or 6 great role players, but we're in a much better situation if we do that regardless of what happens with Melo.

Who were our five/six "great" role players that year?

JR I guess and Kidd for part of the season. Who else?

Novak, Tyson, a younger Pablo, Copeland.
They were all at least good if not great role players. Tyson was an all-star (with a great WS) and the other guys all played far better than what their salaries were.

Tyson was not a "role" player.

Novak was Not good that year.

Copeland barely played for us and barely played anywhere else. Not that good.

Pablo? Great role player? C'mon man

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:What do we get for keeping him? A .450 team with $30 mil less in cap space?

no you get the team you had 2 years ago, for starters

Only if you go out and grab 5 or 6 great role players, but we're in a much better situation if we do that regardless of what happens with Melo.

Who were our five/six "great" role players that year?

JR I guess and Kidd for part of the season. Who else?

Novak, Tyson, a younger Pablo, Copeland.
They were all at least good if not great role players. Tyson was an all-star (with a great WS) and the other guys all played far better than what their salaries were.

Tyson was not a "role" player.

Novak was Not good that year.

Copeland barely played for us and barely played anywhere else. Not that good.

Pablo? Great role player? C'mon man

WaltLongmire wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:What do we get for keeping him? A .450 team with $30 mil less in cap space?

no you get the team you had 2 years ago, for starters

Only if you go out and grab 5 or 6 great role players, but we're in a much better situation if we do that regardless of what happens with Melo.

Who were our five/six "great" role players that year?

JR I guess and Kidd for part of the season. Who else?

Get ready for the great explanation of how we would have 2 or 3 chips by now (or at least be sitting on great cap space and yoots and draft picks) had we only stayed with Gallo, Wilson, Moz and AR. That's four! And the invisible great players we would have made with our tremendous draft expertise! There's 5 and 6!

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

The real issue is that we could have gotten him as a FA, used the players we traded for him in other ways, if we chose to, and have the picks we gave up to draft or trade.

Anthony squeezed us to make a trade and seriously reduced our ability to surround him with the best possible complimentary players back then, and by opting out, he is again squeezing the team and potentially threatening our ability to surround him with the best possible complimentary players.

Gallinari would have been a decent compliment to Anthony, and nobody can say if he would have been injured had he remained here. Mosgov would be an excellent backup center and spot starter if he had remained here, and who knows if Felton would have ballooned up and shown such a steep decline. I'm not a Felton fan, but he was having a career season when we traded him, and liked it here.

But none of this played out because we had to make the trade for Anthony and not compete for him as a FA.

If he returns it should be on terms that also help the team, not just him.

And you could guarantee that Melo doesn't end up in Brooklyn?
And Stat would not have ever gotten hurt and Shump would have injury free seasons and we draft incredibly well and Dolan sells the team, and Wilson Chandler would be on his fourth All-Star team and Lin would have been discovered earlier and...

Gallo was hurt when he was here. Moz has spent most of his time as a third string 5 until very recently and Felton came back here in better shape with a chip on his shoulder and was ranked last in the league as a PG. All that was going to magically disappear because Melo didn't come as a FA?

Please, how long does this go on?

And clicking the ad banners.

jrodmc wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:What do we get for keeping him? A .450 team with $30 mil less in cap space?

no you get the team you had 2 years ago, for starters

Only if you go out and grab 5 or 6 great role players, but we're in a much better situation if we do that regardless of what happens with Melo.

Who were our five/six "great" role players that year?

JR I guess and Kidd for part of the season. Who else?

Get ready for the great explanation of how we would have 2 or 3 chips by now (or at least be sitting on great cap space and yoots and draft picks) had we only stayed with Gallo, Wilson, Moz and AR. That's four! And the invisible great players we would have made with our tremendous draft expertise! There's 5 and 6!

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

The real issue is that we could have gotten him as a FA, used the players we traded for him in other ways, if we chose to, and have the picks we gave up to draft or trade.

Anthony squeezed us to make a trade and seriously reduced our ability to surround him with the best possible complimentary players back then, and by opting out, he is again squeezing the team and potentially threatening our ability to surround him with the best possible complimentary players.

Gallinari would have been a decent compliment to Anthony, and nobody can say if he would have been injured had he remained here. Mosgov would be an excellent backup center and spot starter if he had remained here, and who knows if Felton would have ballooned up and shown such a steep decline. I'm not a Felton fan, but he was having a career season when we traded him, and liked it here.

But none of this played out because we had to make the trade for Anthony and not compete for him as a FA.

If he returns it should be on terms that also help the team, not just him.

And you could guarantee that Melo doesn't end up in Brooklyn?
And Stat would not have ever gotten hurt and Shump would have injury free seasons and we draft incredibly well and Dolan sells the team, and Wilson Chandler would be on his fourth All-Star team and Lin would have been discovered earlier and...

Gallo was hurt when he was here. Moz has spent most of his time as a third string 5 until very recently and Felton came back here in better shape with a chip on his shoulder and was ranked last in the league as a PG. All that was going to magically disappear because Melo didn't come as a FA?

Please, how long does this go on?

Nothing is guaranteed. You don't, for the most part, make decisions based on injury potential, or expect injuries to happen. You want flexibility and the ability to take advantage of, but also create, opportunities. You want your team to control, to some degree, its destiny.

Anthony, to some degree, put shackles on the team because of the trade. We picked up some vets and got surprise performances from some players when we reached Rnd 2, but that roster was clearly not a "team on the rise" roster built on younger veterans with some youth we expected to progress.

With Anthony now playing the field (and having declared his intention to do so last year, or all things), I should be the one saying "how long does this go on?"

Jackson did a great job in the Dallas trade, getting rid of Felton and Chandler (who Dallas clearly values more than I do), picking up a serviceable PG, another young PG who might surprise people, and some picks we used to draft a couple of guys who just might make a difference in the future. He clearly took advantage of a situation with certain assets we possessed.

Giving Anthony a max contract sets the franchise back a step or to IMHO, and negates some of the momentum that was started after our recent trade.

WaltLongmire wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:What do we get for keeping him? A .450 team with $30 mil less in cap space?

no you get the team you had 2 years ago, for starters

Only if you go out and grab 5 or 6 great role players, but we're in a much better situation if we do that regardless of what happens with Melo.

Who were our five/six "great" role players that year?

JR I guess and Kidd for part of the season. Who else?

Get ready for the great explanation of how we would have 2 or 3 chips by now (or at least be sitting on great cap space and yoots and draft picks) had we only stayed with Gallo, Wilson, Moz and AR. That's four! And the invisible great players we would have made with our tremendous draft expertise! There's 5 and 6!

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

The real issue is that we could have gotten him as a FA, used the players we traded for him in other ways, if we chose to, and have the picks we gave up to draft or trade.

Anthony squeezed us to make a trade and seriously reduced our ability to surround him with the best possible complimentary players back then, and by opting out, he is again squeezing the team and potentially threatening our ability to surround him with the best possible complimentary players.

Gallinari would have been a decent compliment to Anthony, and nobody can say if he would have been injured had he remained here. Mosgov would be an excellent backup center and spot starter if he had remained here, and who knows if Felton would have ballooned up and shown such a steep decline. I'm not a Felton fan, but he was having a career season when we traded him, and liked it here.

But none of this played out because we had to make the trade for Anthony and not compete for him as a FA.

If he returns it should be on terms that also help the team, not just him.

And you could guarantee that Melo doesn't end up in Brooklyn?
And Stat would not have ever gotten hurt and Shump would have injury free seasons and we draft incredibly well and Dolan sells the team, and Wilson Chandler would be on his fourth All-Star team and Lin would have been discovered earlier and...

Gallo was hurt when he was here. Moz has spent most of his time as a third string 5 until very recently and Felton came back here in better shape with a chip on his shoulder and was ranked last in the league as a PG. All that was going to magically disappear because Melo didn't come as a FA?

Please, how long does this go on?

Nothing is guaranteed. You don't, for the most part, make decisions based on injury potential, or expect injuries to happen. You want flexibility and the ability to take advantage of, but also create, opportunities. You want your team to control, to some degree, its destiny.

Anthony, to some degree, put shackles on the team because of the trade. We picked up some vets and got surprise performances from some players when we reached Rnd 2, but that roster was clearly not a "team on the rise" roster built on younger veterans with some youth we expected to progress.

With Anthony now playing the field (and having declared his intention to do so last year, or all things), I should be the one saying "how long does this go on?"

Jackson did a great job in the Dallas trade, getting rid of Felton and Chandler (who Dallas clearly values more than I do), picking up a serviceable PG, another young PG who might surprise people, and some picks we used to draft a couple of guys who just might make a difference in the future. He clearly took advantage of a situation with certain assets we possessed.

Giving Anthony a max contract sets the franchise back a step or to IMHO, and negates some of the momentum that was started after our recent trade.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:What do we get for keeping him? A .450 team with $30 mil less in cap space?

no you get the team you had 2 years ago, for starters

Only if you go out and grab 5 or 6 great role players, but we're in a much better situation if we do that regardless of what happens with Melo.

Who were our five/six "great" role players that year?

JR I guess and Kidd for part of the season. Who else?

Novak, Tyson, a younger Pablo, Copeland.
They were all at least good if not great role players. Tyson was an all-star (with a great WS) and the other guys all played far better than what their salaries were.

Tyson was not a "role" player.

Novak was Not good that year.

Copeland barely played for us and barely played anywhere else. Not that good.

Pablo? Great role player? C'mon man

Tyson: OK fine. I should have said 4 to 5 role players and 1 all-star. That only adds to my point about how much more we'd have to add just to get back to that level, though.
You seem to be selectively using and ignoring WS. If an average player makes $6 mil a season and has a win share of .100, if you can get a guy significantly above that (.110 to .130 range) for a third the price, isn't that outstanding? They're basically guys producing at what you'd expect to buy for around $8 or 9 mil a year.

My point is/was really that the knick team that year was a pretty bad team. How they won 54 games is beyond me. And you said that they had 4-5 "great" role players which I believe is far from the truth.

As far as WS, where have I used it selectively?

Pretty much in your description of everyone in this discussion. Do you think Novak, Copeland, and Pablo were pretty good and Tyson was an all-star that year or are you ignoring the WS?
I took the average of the predictions of all the advanced stats models before the season started and it was 50 wins for the Knicks that year. So they achieved what they should have.
Put it this way, to get back to that level by next year, we're going to have to find ways to get guys who should be making around $7 or 8 mil to come here for $1 to 3 mil.

If a guy has an ok WS48 (Novak .116 - 20 mpg) does that make him a "great" role player?

Obviously WS is not every thing but I used it as my alarm to take a deeper look. Often I don't see why the WS is low especially with guards.

Tyson always had a great WS but I could never stand him or his game. I am sure that bias plays into it as well.

We will def need production from cheap players to be successful though I don't even care about this year. I want a full rebuild.

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:What do we get for keeping him? A .450 team with $30 mil less in cap space?

no you get the team you had 2 years ago, for starters

Only if you go out and grab 5 or 6 great role players, but we're in a much better situation if we do that regardless of what happens with Melo.

Who were our five/six "great" role players that year?

JR I guess and Kidd for part of the season. Who else?

Novak, Tyson, a younger Pablo, Copeland.
They were all at least good if not great role players. Tyson was an all-star (with a great WS) and the other guys all played far better than what their salaries were.

Tyson was not a "role" player.

Novak was Not good that year.

Copeland barely played for us and barely played anywhere else. Not that good.

Pablo? Great role player? C'mon man

Tyson: OK fine. I should have said 4 to 5 role players and 1 all-star. That only adds to my point about how much more we'd have to add just to get back to that level, though.
You seem to be selectively using and ignoring WS. If an average player makes $6 mil a season and has a win share of .100, if you can get a guy significantly above that (.110 to .130 range) for a third the price, isn't that outstanding? They're basically guys producing at what you'd expect to buy for around $8 or 9 mil a year.

My point is/was really that the knick team that year was a pretty bad team. How they won 54 games is beyond me. And you said that they had 4-5 "great" role players which I believe is far from the truth.

As far as WS, where have I used it selectively?

Pretty much in your description of everyone in this discussion. Do you think Novak, Copeland, and Pablo were pretty good and Tyson was an all-star that year or are you ignoring the WS?
I took the average of the predictions of all the advanced stats models before the season started and it was 50 wins for the Knicks that year. So they achieved what they should have.
Put it this way, to get back to that level by next year, we're going to have to find ways to get guys who should be making around $7 or 8 mil to come here for $1 to 3 mil.

If a guy has an ok WS48 (Novak .116 - 20 mpg) does that make him a "great" role player?

Obviously WS is not every thing but I used it as my alarm to take a deeper look. Often I don't see why the WS is low especially with guards.

Tyson always had a great WS but I could never stand him or his game. I am sure that bias plays into it as well.

We will def need production from cheap players to be successful though I don't even care about this year. I want a full rebuild.

I agree with part of Bonn's point. Im not sure the role players *were* better, but they sure as hell PLAYED better. Copeland and Novak have done nothing since leaving the guy (who doesnt make anyone better). But what Bonn is right about is nobody has stepped up. Thats what the Dallas trade was about. Calderon can set the ton Kidd set. Larkin will be a nice P&R PG off the bench. Early should give you quality minutes off the bench. Phil added some shooters and a floor general. Is he done? I suspect he's not...

I agree that nobody stepped up last season and I think a lot of that is on the coach too.