babyKnicks wrote:If we had cap space then we would not have grabbed Calderon. But the key is WE DID NOT HAVE CAP SPACE which limits what we can do.

Finding great signings to teams that had cap space and comparing them to us having to make salaries match to dump Felton and chandler is just fool's gold.

Calderone is an upgrade over Felton. Chandler is gone.

Win win.

The Kings are actually $3 million over the cap, so I'm pretty sure they used their full midlevel exception to get Collision. There would be no guarantee that Collision would've wanted to come to New York but I'd much prefer we have him than Calderon, considering the money that Calderon is due. I understood the need to move Chandler and Felton but at what cost? Is it really that unfathomable to think that we could've dumped both, free of charge, on another team with cap space? I'm sure you'd argue we got assets for that same package, so why would that be so unreasonable?

Yes, Calderon is an upgrade over Felton...and so would any other PG in the entire league. So Calderon himself, is nothing to take solace in, IMO. After all, we could've pursued Darren for $6 million less.

yellowboy90 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Darren Collision reportedly has agreed to terms with the Sacramento Kings for $16 million over 3 years. At 26 years old, and as a starter, he averaged 14.8ppg, 2.3rpg, 5.3apg and 1.5spg in 33.8mpg. For the efficient crowd, he also shot 48.1% from the field and 41.7% from 3.

In contrast, Jose Calderon at 33 years old is owed $22 million over those same 3 years. His stat line as a starter? 11.4ppg, 2.4rpg, 4.7apg and 0.9spg in 30.5mpg. His shooting? 45.6 FG% and 44.9 3FG%.

Those numbers are not enough to establish anything concrete, so take them with a grain of salt. But I think it's hard to pretend that Calderon's play is great bang for our buck.

Did you just use Collinson's numbers in 35 games versus someone who played 82 games? Why not use the season as a whole or more seasons to get a better grasp of their numbers. No need to go Cherry picking

Because Collision was a backup to Paul for most of the season. Would be pretty unfair to compare a starter to a bench player, right? I suppose the 36 minute per averages might've been more appropriate but when you look at what Collision has done throughout his career as a starter, the numbers have been fairly consistent with what we saw from him as a starter for the 2013-2014 season.

As for their 36 minute per averages...

Collision: 15.8ppg, 3.3rpg, 5.2apg, 1.6spg
Calderon: 13.5ppg,2.8rpg, 5.5apg, 1.0spg

...so were my assertions really THAT far off base?

foosballnick wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Darren Collision reportedly has agreed to terms with the Sacramento Kings for $16 million over 3 years. At 26 years old, and as a starter, he averaged 14.8ppg, 2.3rpg, 5.3apg and 1.5spg in 33.8mpg. For the efficient crowd, he also shot 48.1% from the field and 41.7% from 3.

In contrast, Jose Calderon at 33 years old is owed $22 million over those same 3 years. His stat line as a starter? 11.4ppg, 2.4rpg, 4.7apg and 0.9spg in 30.5mpg. His shooting? 45.6 FG% and 44.9 3FG%.

Those numbers are not enough to establish anything concrete, so take them with a grain of salt. But I think it's hard to pretend that Calderon's play is great bang for our buck.

Knicks did not have cap space to sign anyone higher than the MLE so it is folly to pull an isolated signing and form a comparison. The only way Collison could have come to the Knicks is via a sign and trade with the Clips. Further, any trade package the Knicks made had to bring back equal salary. You seem to be on a mission to discredit the trade. Yes Calderon's contract is less than ideal, but you have to consider the entire trade package.

Calderon
Larkin
Ellington
Dalambert
Early
Thanasis Ante.
3.6 Million Trade Exception towards the Cap

...Collision signed for the MLE reportedly....

And to be perfectly honest, none of the assets we acquired justify Calderon's contract to me. With the phletora of teams with cap space this offseason, is it really that unfathomable to think that one would've taken both Chandler and Felton in a salary dump? Hell, Dallas might've done that once they figured out how ridiculous it was to expect LeBron or Melo to go there.

NardDogNation wrote:

VDesai wrote:Calderon has about 4.1/1 career assist to turnover ratio- one of the best in NBA history. And he hits a high percentage of 3's. He's a really efficient player, especially for a triangle offense system.

...now look at Collision's numbers and tell me whether the modest advantage Calderon has on him in this respect, is worth $6 million MORE.

Is it really relevant? We don't have the full MLE available, only the smaller MLE that starts at 3.3mm. We couldn't get Collison. We got Calderon back while getting a couple young assets dumping Chandler. Calderon is a very good point guard and was attainable...Collison might be a shade below and cheaper, but we had no way of getting him so why fret?

VDesai wrote:BTW if you are unaware of the rule, you don't get the 5mm MLE if you pay the luxury tax the year before. You only get the 3mm MLE and can only offer 3 yrs instead of 4.

I don't think that is the case. The exceptions are determined by the payroll for the upcoming season, not the previous one. It seems that Ian Begley, a sports writer that exclusively covers the Knicks on ESPN, is of the same opinion:

"The Knicks currently have the taxpayer’s mini mid-level (starting at $3.3 million). If Anthony signs with another team, they are likely to have the full midlevel exception (starting at $5 million)."

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/57653/5-things-to-know-about-knicks-free-agency

...so I think a lot of this depends on whether Melo signs with us or not but if we simply dumped Chandler and Felton on the Mavs, we would've had the full MLE even if we kept Melo. Like I said before, I'd prefer this alternative to what actually happened.

NardDogNation wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Darren Collision reportedly has agreed to terms with the Sacramento Kings for $16 million over 3 years. At 26 years old, and as a starter, he averaged 14.8ppg, 2.3rpg, 5.3apg and 1.5spg in 33.8mpg. For the efficient crowd, he also shot 48.1% from the field and 41.7% from 3.

In contrast, Jose Calderon at 33 years old is owed $22 million over those same 3 years. His stat line as a starter? 11.4ppg, 2.4rpg, 4.7apg and 0.9spg in 30.5mpg. His shooting? 45.6 FG% and 44.9 3FG%.

Those numbers are not enough to establish anything concrete, so take them with a grain of salt. But I think it's hard to pretend that Calderon's play is great bang for our buck.

Knicks did not have cap space to sign anyone higher than the MLE so it is folly to pull an isolated signing and form a comparison. The only way Collison could have come to the Knicks is via a sign and trade with the Clips. Further, any trade package the Knicks made had to bring back equal salary. You seem to be on a mission to discredit the trade. Yes Calderon's contract is less than ideal, but you have to consider the entire trade package.

Calderon
Larkin
Ellington
Dalambert
Early
Thanasis Ante.
3.6 Million Trade Exception towards the Cap

...Collision signed for the MLE reportedly....

And to be perfectly honest, none of the assets we acquired justify Calderon's contract to me. With the phletora of teams with cap space this offseason, is it really that unfathomable to think that one would've taken both Chandler and Felton in a salary dump? Hell, Dallas might've done that once they figured out how ridiculous it was to expect LeBron or Melo to go there.

All I csn say is luckily for us, Phil is our GM and not u

Thank you for your lack of insight.

And thank you for your total lack of knowledge

BigRedDog wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Darren Collision reportedly has agreed to terms with the Sacramento Kings for $16 million over 3 years. At 26 years old, and as a starter, he averaged 14.8ppg, 2.3rpg, 5.3apg and 1.5spg in 33.8mpg. For the efficient crowd, he also shot 48.1% from the field and 41.7% from 3.

In contrast, Jose Calderon at 33 years old is owed $22 million over those same 3 years. His stat line as a starter? 11.4ppg, 2.4rpg, 4.7apg and 0.9spg in 30.5mpg. His shooting? 45.6 FG% and 44.9 3FG%.

Those numbers are not enough to establish anything concrete, so take them with a grain of salt. But I think it's hard to pretend that Calderon's play is great bang for our buck.

Knicks did not have cap space to sign anyone higher than the MLE so it is folly to pull an isolated signing and form a comparison. The only way Collison could have come to the Knicks is via a sign and trade with the Clips. Further, any trade package the Knicks made had to bring back equal salary. You seem to be on a mission to discredit the trade. Yes Calderon's contract is less than ideal, but you have to consider the entire trade package.

Calderon
Larkin
Ellington
Dalambert
Early
Thanasis Ante.
3.6 Million Trade Exception towards the Cap

...Collision signed for the MLE reportedly....

And to be perfectly honest, none of the assets we acquired justify Calderon's contract to me. With the phletora of teams with cap space this offseason, is it really that unfathomable to think that one would've taken both Chandler and Felton in a salary dump? Hell, Dallas might've done that once they figured out how ridiculous it was to expect LeBron or Melo to go there.

All I csn say is luckily for us, Phil is our GM and not u

Thank you for your lack of insight.

And thank you for your total lack of knowledge

That would still be a net gain for you, lol.

NardDogNation wrote:

VDesai wrote:BTW the only way to get Collison at the 5mm dollar level right now would've been to renounce Carmelo Anthony's rights and thus give up any opportunity of getting any compensation back in a sign and trade. So you'd have Darren Collison locked up for 5 yrs, no Carmelo, no draft picks. Just doesn't make any sense.

The Calderon move was likely the best move given the resources this team had. The only other option was trying to sign a lower level PG with the 3.3mm Mini-MLE, which we're trying to use to somehow lure Pau Gasol.

...OR, we could've dumped Chandler and Felton on a team with cap space which would've given us the flexibility to pursue Collision AND keep Melo. You don't think that would've been a better option?

I don't think that this scenario had any realistic probability attached to it.

nixluva wrote:In what strange world would we find a team with cap space that would just take Felton and Tyson??? When will some of us realize this deal was about the best end result we could hope for under the circumstances? Phil has to make deals that remove underperforming or poor fits for this team while getting assets and he did that. It ended with us getting picks and useful players that better fit what we're doing.

The same strange world where Lou Williams and Bebe Noguiera were acquired by the Raptors in an $8 million salary dump; Al Jefferson was acquired by the Jazz in 2010 for a $12 million salary dump; Michael Beasley in 2010 for a $6 million salary dump; Tyson Chandler in 2010 for a $11 million salary dump and Kirk Hinrich to the Wizards for a $9 million salary dump. Stay tuned for the same exact thing happening this offseason, as it happens every offseason where teams have a bunch of money to spend and only a handful of stars to chase.