Nalod wrote:Isiah put the franchise in Marbury's hands and that by itself doomed it no matter how much talent you put around him.

Talent was never the issue, it was the empowered narcissist of Marbles that was toxic.

Reezy was talented but still very raw with clashed with Larry's "be professional" mantra. Larry wanted saavy players and Reezy was not there yet. Wrong coach for that team. Larry did bring out the best in Crawford and Eddy.

ZBo had the talent but was a bone head.

Marbury has his share of the blame and a lot of it goes to him as the franchise player. But even if you say Isiah gave Marbury the keys, he never built a team around him that complimented him all he did was add talent.

Marbury was a penetrating PG yet all Isiah did was add guys who clogged the paint. When Marbury had Mutombo, *KT, *KVH, *Doleac as his front court he was balling. The pick and pops and space to penetrate made the game easier for him.

A couple of tweeks to upgrade talent and get younger as the years go on but maintain spacing, balance etc would have changed the outlook drastically. Sure they may have still done some stupid off the court crap but they would have won a lot more games.

H1AND1 wrote:Of course he says this now because he wants to re-write history to change he perception that his tenure was an utter failure (which it was). Saying "hey look at all these great players I acquired/if only I'd had the chance to develop the core as I had envisioned" yadda yadda yadda makes it seem like outside forces were more at fault for his failure.

The reality is, Isiah's tenure was an unmitigated disaster and hindsight is most assuredly 20/20.

DrAlphaeus wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:Hmm:

Zeke gets here Dec. 2003. Ariza picked up in 2004 draft. Jamal gets here in a trade from Chicago in Aug. 2004 for Mutumbo et al. Frye, Lee & Nate picked up in 2005 draft. Good start.

Eddy Curry and his heart defect gets here Oct. 2005 using picks that became Joakim Noah and LaMarcus Aldridge.

Anucha Browne Sanders is fired in January 2006.

Ariza was traded with Penny for Stevie Franchise in Feb. 2006.

Knicks finished 2005-06 second to last in the league with the league's highest payroll.

But then Stevie & Frye was traded for Zach in June 2007.

Isiah & MSG are found liable for sexual harassment in Oct. 2007.

Donnie Walsh is brought in April 2008 and Isiah looms in the shadows until… who knows when exactly.

Postscript: Zach and Jamal both traded Nov. 2008, with that date still a UK forum record.

So what I think is Isiah wants to be remembered as a savvy scout of talent, but wants us to forget about his massive failure Eddy Curry and his otherwise reprehensible behavior.

Isiah may be a douche but that has nothing to do with the topic of conversation I.e. his basketball operations resume. Yes, he had the Eddy Curry debacle but outside of that, what move could you really consider a failure from a talent/value perspective?

I'll always say he was a good draft scout. But he shouldn't have done more than that.

But if you believe that the prez of ops is in charge of the culture, it seems his mismanagement on other levels had a direct impact on basketball.

I forgot to add he was there when they brought on Marbury Jan. '04. I thought good things were coming back then as well. Knicks make playoffs, but after slow start Wilkens resigns next season. Old fashioned coach loses the ears of the young guys. Sounds familiar. Herb, Larry, Allan Houston's contract… not saying he had it easy. But Steve Francis? Jerome James? Vin Baker? Trading Crazy Eyes for Ray-J's brother-in-law for a million more a year? (That may just be nostalgia talking but something to be said about crafty vets in the mix, and his other centers were busts). Coddling/enabling Marbury? Maybe the core got good simply because they were depended on so much and got so many minutes in losing efforts, it was some sort of crucible. I dunno. But the 06-07 & 07-08 teams he coached he got 33 & 23 wins, respectively. So he can say "I wish" all he wants but I wish he wasn't a failure as a manager.

I didn't say the guy was perfect. Even the best of GM's trade for Richard Jefferson (Spurs) or draft Michael Beasley. Isiah had his bumps along the way but were any of them insurmountable or fatal?

Vin Baker was a former, and recent all-star when we signed him to a minimum deal. Was that going to destroy the franchise? Did that set us back a number of years?

We gave up no assets to get Jerome James, who was one of only a handful of centers that averaged a double-double in the playoffs. Did that handicap a team that was well over the cap already, for the next several years?

Kurt Thomas was 33 years old when we traded him for a 24 year old Quentin Richardson, who was regarded as one of the best up-and-coming guards in the league, and a draft pick used to select Nate Robinson. Was Isiah suppose to know that his back was going to start acting up and impede his ability to perform the way he did just one season earlier with the Suns and two seasons earlier with the Clippers?

Sometimes **** happens and moves don't work out but that does not mean they should not have been made. The reality is that every NBA transaction involves risk, no matter how astute the reasoning is involved in making them.

I also don't buy the "culture" argument, against Isiah. JFK was ordering interns to blow his aides in the swimming pool of the White House and he is still widely credited (rightfully so) for bringing out the best of the nation, being a champion of FDR's policies/program and having one of the more effective administration's in our nation's history. MLK was also a renowned man-whore, while married WITH kids (as well as a probable homophobe) and was the driving force in introducing legislation that gave the overwhelming majority of Americans (white people too) a shot at living the American Dream. The point is that I don't think a leader's missteps or misgivings necessarily impact his effectiveness in a given capacity or impacts the performance/spirit of his subordinates.

JFK bought the nation together, MLK did great things, Isiah sucked.

Wins and loses.......

Nalod wrote:Ok, if the knicks did not epically suck, we could overlook the misteps.

JFK bought the nation together, MLK did great things, Isiah sucked.

Wins and loses.......

Rome wasn't build in a day. Apparently, neither are the Knicks. Seven years and three Presidents removed and we are still in the same ****ty predicament that we were in when Isiah was fired.

NardDogNation wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:Hmm:

Zeke gets here Dec. 2003. Ariza picked up in 2004 draft. Jamal gets here in a trade from Chicago in Aug. 2004 for Mutumbo et al. Frye, Lee & Nate picked up in 2005 draft. Good start.

Eddy Curry and his heart defect gets here Oct. 2005 using picks that became Joakim Noah and LaMarcus Aldridge.

Anucha Browne Sanders is fired in January 2006.

Ariza was traded with Penny for Stevie Franchise in Feb. 2006.

Knicks finished 2005-06 second to last in the league with the league's highest payroll.

But then Stevie & Frye was traded for Zach in June 2007.

Isiah & MSG are found liable for sexual harassment in Oct. 2007.

Donnie Walsh is brought in April 2008 and Isiah looms in the shadows until… who knows when exactly.

Postscript: Zach and Jamal both traded Nov. 2008, with that date still a UK forum record.

So what I think is Isiah wants to be remembered as a savvy scout of talent, but wants us to forget about his massive failure Eddy Curry and his otherwise reprehensible behavior.

Isiah may be a douche but that has nothing to do with the topic of conversation I.e. his basketball operations resume. Yes, he had the Eddy Curry debacle but outside of that, what move could you really consider a failure from a talent/value perspective?

I'll always say he was a good draft scout. But he shouldn't have done more than that.

But if you believe that the prez of ops is in charge of the culture, it seems his mismanagement on other levels had a direct impact on basketball.

I forgot to add he was there when they brought on Marbury Jan. '04. I thought good things were coming back then as well. Knicks make playoffs, but after slow start Wilkens resigns next season. Old fashioned coach loses the ears of the young guys. Sounds familiar. Herb, Larry, Allan Houston's contract… not saying he had it easy. But Steve Francis? Jerome James? Vin Baker? Trading Crazy Eyes for Ray-J's brother-in-law for a million more a year? (That may just be nostalgia talking but something to be said about crafty vets in the mix, and his other centers were busts). Coddling/enabling Marbury? Maybe the core got good simply because they were depended on so much and got so many minutes in losing efforts, it was some sort of crucible. I dunno. But the 06-07 & 07-08 teams he coached he got 33 & 23 wins, respectively. So he can say "I wish" all he wants but I wish he wasn't a failure as a manager.

I didn't say the guy was perfect. Even the best of GM's trade for Richard Jefferson (Spurs) or draft Michael Beasley. Isiah had his bumps along the way but were any of them insurmountable or fatal?

Vin Baker was a former, and recent all-star when we signed him to a minimum deal. Was that going to destroy the franchise? Did that set us back a number of years?

We gave up no assets to get Jerome James, who was one of only a handful of centers that averaged a double-double in the playoffs. Did that handicap a team that was well over the cap already, for the next several years?

Kurt Thomas was 33 years old when we traded him for a 24 year old Quentin Richardson, who was regarded as one of the best up-and-coming guards in the league, and a draft pick used to select Nate Robinson. Was Isiah suppose to know that his back was going to start acting up and impede his ability to perform the way he did just one season earlier with the Suns and two seasons earlier with the Clippers?

Sometimes **** happens and moves don't work out but that does not mean they should not have been made. The reality is that every NBA transaction involves risk, no matter how astute the reasoning is involved in making them.

I also don't buy the "culture" argument, against Isiah. JFK was ordering interns to blow his aides in the swimming pool of the White House and he is still widely credited (rightfully so) for bringing out the best of the nation, being a champion of FDR's policies/program and having one of the more effective administration's in our nation's history. MLK was also a renowned man-whore, while married WITH kids (as well as a probable homophobe) and was the driving force in introducing legislation that gave the overwhelming majority of Americans (white people too) a shot at living the American Dream. The point is that I don't think a leader's missteps or misgivings necessarily impact his effectiveness in a given capacity or impacts the performance/spirit of his subordinates.

All fair points Nard, but I just remember the Knicks back then having a bunch of 7 footers who were crap, and a glut at the guard position. Maybe he was a good judge of guard talent but lousy at big men save for D-Lee. And the record speaks for itself, but like said upthread, maybe it was just an average Dolan-enabled administration.

As for the culture thing: I'll half-agree with you. I was thinking about retorting with the Spurs being a "class organization" like you always hear, but then thought: aren't they all banging each others wives over there and Pop is kind of a dick? Ha… But that sexual harassment case was a massive distraction to the organization, it has to be accountable for a couple of those loses I'd think.

DrAlphaeus wrote:Hmm:

Zeke gets here Dec. 2003. Ariza picked up in 2004 draft. Jamal gets here in a trade from Chicago in Aug. 2004 for Mutumbo et al. Frye, Lee & Nate picked up in 2005 draft. Good start.

Eddy Curry and his heart defect gets here Oct. 2005 using picks that became Joakim Noah and LaMarcus Aldridge.

Anucha Browne Sanders is fired in January 2006.

Ariza was traded with Penny for Stevie Franchise in Feb. 2006.

Knicks finished 2005-06 second to last in the league with the league's highest payroll.

But then Stevie & Frye was traded for Zach in June 2007.

Isiah & MSG are found liable for sexual harassment in Oct. 2007.

Donnie Walsh is brought in April 2008 and Isiah looms in the shadows until… who knows when exactly.

Postscript: Zach and Jamal both traded Nov. 2008, with that date still a UK forum record.

So what I think is Isiah wants to be remembered as a savvy scout of talent, but wants us to forget about his massive failure Eddy Curry and his otherwise reprehensible behavior.

The Curry trade is what killed the team. If we never got Curry, this team would have been so much better. Noah, Aldridge, Lee, Frye, Crawford, and Nate would have been a solid team and we would have had our draft picks to continue adding talent. This is why it is time to take our time and build a team right.

Regarding Zeke, it was time for him to go, but I thought he did a slight above-average job of identifying talent. If we had left the team alone when we had Randolph and Crawford instead of chasing after LeBron, we would be in the playoffs right now. In fact, I think our team would be the second best team in the East right behind Miami. This is why the team needs to really take its time and build the team right and then have patience.

And Lee will never see another all star game.

No thanks.