KNICKSdom wrote:Did the Pacers become the #1 seed without Hibbert? Hibbert is an efficient and effective down low center. Rare, they don't grow on trees. I think pacers signing Bynum was toxic to Hibbert in practices. Just saying.

Hibbert is neither efficient nor effective. People get pissy over Melo's play, despite his career TS% and eFG% being 54.7% and 48.3% respectively. Mind you, Melo is a perimeter player and of average NBA height. Meanwhile Hibbert's career TS% and eFG% are 51.3% and 46.8% as the tallest player in the NBA. And as far as his effectiveness goes, the guy averages just 11.6ppg and 7.2rpg, albeit as a good defender (under certain conditions). The dude has always been grossly overrated and is a prime candidate of a player that gets hyped because he is on a winning team. Then again, Tyson Chandler is no different than Roy Hibbert in that regard.

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

KNICKSdom wrote:Did the Pacers become the #1 seed without Hibbert? Hibbert is an efficient and effective down low center. Rare, they don't grow on trees. I think pacers signing Bynum was toxic to Hibbert in practices. Just saying.

Hibbert is neither efficient nor effective. People get pissy over Melo's play, despite his career TS% and eFG% being 54.7% and 48.3% respectively. Mind you, Melo is a perimeter player and of average NBA height. Meanwhile Hibbert's career TS% and eFG% are 51.3% and 46.8% as the tallest player in the NBA. And as far as his effectiveness goes, the guy averages just 11.6ppg and 7.2rpg, albeit as a good defender (under certain conditions). The dude has always been grossly overrated and is a prime candidate of a player that gets hyped because he is on a winning team.

nice

Stop adopting people in your league of saber-metrics.

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

KNICKSdom wrote:Did the Pacers become the #1 seed without Hibbert? Hibbert is an efficient and effective down low center. Rare, they don't grow on trees. I think pacers signing Bynum was toxic to Hibbert in practices. Just saying.

Hibbert is neither efficient nor effective. People get pissy over Melo's play, despite his career TS% and eFG% being 54.7% and 48.3% respectively. Mind you, Melo is a perimeter player and of average NBA height. Meanwhile Hibbert's career TS% and eFG% are 51.3% and 46.8% as the tallest player in the NBA. And as far as his effectiveness goes, the guy averages just 11.6ppg and 7.2rpg, albeit as a good defender (under certain conditions). The dude has always been grossly overrated and is a prime candidate of a player that gets hyped because he is on a winning team.

nice

Stop adopting people in your league of saber-metrics.

it is my calling to empower people to overcome their addictive minds

All hail saber-metrics!

Nalod wrote:
"HIllBert"

Would I take them? Do they fit the system? Skill set, contract and buy in are the three criterias you look at.

Do they fit the culture either by their IQ? On court Skills? Contract specifications? Willing to fit in?

There are guys vying for a new contract and if the system doe snot suite thier skill set the stats by which is often a strong negotiation tool is either inflated or deflated. LIkewise a guy with his last great contract and wants to win might be a more suitable fit. Its a businsess.

Buying low is a nice thing but it has to fit.

The culture determines who we want.

To clarify, as much as I don't care for Hibbert and think that he is overrated, I still believe that he'd be a better fit than Tyson in the triangle WITH Melo. For all his flaws, Hibbert is recognized as being an excellent passer for a big man, which the triangle utilizes a great deal in pinch post and high post action. The ability of Hibbert to consistently take and make jumpers from these positions would help to enhance the effect and also create driving lines for Melo and a future sidekick; lanes that don't currently exist because Chandler is useless offensively.

Defensively, Hibbert also is pretty good if you're playing against a conventional team so there is not much lost in this regard (although MIA might be a concern). Because of those 3 things, I think we might be able to overlook his inefficient shooting, his inconsistent play, his gross contract, etc. Patrick Ewing ain't walking through those doors and so we'll have to accept imperfection from any prospective center that is/will be available (save for Marc Gasol).

As for George Hill, he suffers from Roy Hibbert-itis of the guard variety but is also a serviceable player. Four things that make a "PG" an ideal fit in the triangle are: (1) being a good 3 point shooter, (2) being a good defender, (3) being a ball mover as opposed to an orchestrator and (4) being able to move without the ball. George Hill does all 4 of those things particularly well. We would effectively be paying $22 million per year for 3 years to two role players but then again, I see 2015 as being a tremendous let down and think that we will not be able to meaningfully use our cap space.

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

KNICKSdom wrote:Did the Pacers become the #1 seed without Hibbert? Hibbert is an efficient and effective down low center. Rare, they don't grow on trees. I think pacers signing Bynum was toxic to Hibbert in practices. Just saying.

Hibbert is neither efficient nor effective. People get pissy over Melo's play, despite his career TS% and eFG% being 54.7% and 48.3% respectively. Mind you, Melo is a perimeter player and of average NBA height. Meanwhile Hibbert's career TS% and eFG% are 51.3% and 46.8% as the tallest player in the NBA. And as far as his effectiveness goes, the guy averages just 11.6ppg and 7.2rpg, albeit as a good defender (under certain conditions). The dude has always been grossly overrated and is a prime candidate of a player that gets hyped because he is on a winning team.

nice

Stop adopting people in your league of saber-metrics.

it is my calling to empower people to overcome their addictive minds

All hail saber-metrics!

Now, do you still want Tyreke Evans, Josh Smooth and BJennings?

You need to flush those thoughts out of your system

LOL. To be fair, I never wanted Brandon Jennings and I'd ONLY take Tyreke Evans if it came in a package deal that rid us of Amar'e/Bargnani AND brought back both Jrue Holiday and Eric Gordon (overpaid but still good and effective).

I still would take Josh Smith before because I think he could be reached. His only issue is his shot selection and not necessarily his offense (after all, the guy was a league leader in his efficiency in the painted area the previous season). If we fix that through some Zen magic, he'd be an all-star candidate.

Josh Smith is a super talented bone head. If Phil wants to zenify him anew, I am all for it.

Huge HELL NO on eric gordon. And don't want Holiday either.

Lowry, Dragic, Collison, Teague

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

KNICKSdom wrote:Did the Pacers become the #1 seed without Hibbert? Hibbert is an efficient and effective down low center. Rare, they don't grow on trees. I think pacers signing Bynum was toxic to Hibbert in practices. Just saying.

Hibbert is neither efficient nor effective. People get pissy over Melo's play, despite his career TS% and eFG% being 54.7% and 48.3% respectively. Mind you, Melo is a perimeter player and of average NBA height. Meanwhile Hibbert's career TS% and eFG% are 51.3% and 46.8% as the tallest player in the NBA. And as far as his effectiveness goes, the guy averages just 11.6ppg and 7.2rpg, albeit as a good defender (under certain conditions). The dude has always been grossly overrated and is a prime candidate of a player that gets hyped because he is on a winning team.

nice

Stop adopting people in your league of saber-metrics.

it is my calling to empower people to overcome their addictive minds

All hail saber-metrics!

Now, do you still want Tyreke Evans, Josh Smooth and BJennings?

You need to flush those thoughts out of your system

LOL. To be fair, I never wanted Brandon Jennings and I'd ONLY take Tyreke Evans if it came in a package deal that rid us of Amar'e/Bargnani AND brought back both Jrue Holiday and Eric Gordon (overpaid but still good and effective).

I still would take Josh Smith before because I think he could be reached. His only issue is his shot selection and not necessarily his offense (after all, the guy was a league leader in his efficiency in the painted area the previous season). If we fix that through some Zen magic, he'd be an all-star candidate.

Josh Smith is a super talented bone head. If Phil wants to zenify him anew, I am all for it.

Huge HELL NO on eric gordon. And don't want Holiday either.

Lowry, Dragic, Collison, Teague

Oh, I never denied that Smith is a "bone-head". At the same time, most champions/contenders have had that kind of mercurial player on it (Lakers with Bynum, Odom and Artest; Boston with Rondo; Miami with Chalmers and now Beasley; Indiana with Stephenson; Chicago with Rodman;etc.). Two of the teams I mentioned were headed by Phil and they had several players that fit the description. It's why I think he and his underlings could successfully get through to Smith. If they do, it'd be a huge coup for us because the guy is very talented and could be had for cheap.

Why don't you like Gordon? He is uberly efficient, a very good defender, an excellent shooter/penetrator and plays within the team concept. Yeah, he's injured a lot and grossly overpaid but beggars can't be choosers and he wouldn't be available if that wasn't the case. We desperately need talent and he provides it in spades. I detest Tyreke Evans' game but if it meant getting Gordon and Jrue Holiday, who might be the best PG candidate in the triangle, I'd do it.

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

KNICKSdom wrote:Did the Pacers become the #1 seed without Hibbert? Hibbert is an efficient and effective down low center. Rare, they don't grow on trees. I think pacers signing Bynum was toxic to Hibbert in practices. Just saying.

Hibbert is neither efficient nor effective. People get pissy over Melo's play, despite his career TS% and eFG% being 54.7% and 48.3% respectively. Mind you, Melo is a perimeter player and of average NBA height. Meanwhile Hibbert's career TS% and eFG% are 51.3% and 46.8% as the tallest player in the NBA. And as far as his effectiveness goes, the guy averages just 11.6ppg and 7.2rpg, albeit as a good defender (under certain conditions). The dude has always been grossly overrated and is a prime candidate of a player that gets hyped because he is on a winning team.

nice

Stop adopting people in your league of saber-metrics.

it is my calling to empower people to overcome their addictive minds

All hail saber-metrics!

Now, do you still want Tyreke Evans, Josh Smooth and BJennings?

You need to flush those thoughts out of your system

LOL. To be fair, I never wanted Brandon Jennings and I'd ONLY take Tyreke Evans if it came in a package deal that rid us of Amar'e/Bargnani AND brought back both Jrue Holiday and Eric Gordon (overpaid but still good and effective).

I still would take Josh Smith before because I think he could be reached. His only issue is his shot selection and not necessarily his offense (after all, the guy was a league leader in his efficiency in the painted area the previous season). If we fix that through some Zen magic, he'd be an all-star candidate.

Josh Smith is a super talented bone head. If Phil wants to zenify him anew, I am all for it.

Huge HELL NO on eric gordon. And don't want Holiday either.

Lowry, Dragic, Collison, Teague

Oh, I never denied that Smith is a "bone-head". At the same time, most champions/contenders have had that kind of mercurial player on it (Lakers with Bynum, Odom and Artest; Boston with Rondo; Miami with Chalmers and now Beasley; Indiana with Stephenson; Chicago with Rodman;etc.). Two of the teams I mentioned were headed by Phil and they had several players that fit the description. It's why I think he and his underlings could successfully get through to Smith. If they do, it'd be a huge coup for us because the guy is very talented and could be had for cheap.

Why don't you like Gordon? He is uberly efficient, a very good defender, an excellent shooter/penetrator and plays within the team concept. Yeah, he's injured a lot and grossly overpaid but beggars can't be choosers and he wouldn't be available if that wasn't the case. We desperately need talent and he provides it in spades. I detest Tyreke Evans' game but if it meant getting Gordon and Jrue Holiday, who might be the best PG candidate in the triangle, I'd do it.

I can deal with efficient bone heads (rodman, stephenson, Odom (la version), champion years rondo) but not inefficient bone heads.

Gordon does not do enough and is way too streaky. For what he offers he is one of the worst salbatrosses.

Holiday is not an efficient shooter but does not make up for it with enough "other" contributions. Also getting paid way too much money.

NOH has really struck out with the players that they brought in.

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

KNICKSdom wrote:Did the Pacers become the #1 seed without Hibbert? Hibbert is an efficient and effective down low center. Rare, they don't grow on trees. I think pacers signing Bynum was toxic to Hibbert in practices. Just saying.

Hibbert is neither efficient nor effective. People get pissy over Melo's play, despite his career TS% and eFG% being 54.7% and 48.3% respectively. Mind you, Melo is a perimeter player and of average NBA height. Meanwhile Hibbert's career TS% and eFG% are 51.3% and 46.8% as the tallest player in the NBA. And as far as his effectiveness goes, the guy averages just 11.6ppg and 7.2rpg, albeit as a good defender (under certain conditions). The dude has always been grossly overrated and is a prime candidate of a player that gets hyped because he is on a winning team.

nice

Stop adopting people in your league of saber-metrics.

it is my calling to empower people to overcome their addictive minds

All hail saber-metrics!

Now, do you still want Tyreke Evans, Josh Smooth and BJennings?

You need to flush those thoughts out of your system

LOL. To be fair, I never wanted Brandon Jennings and I'd ONLY take Tyreke Evans if it came in a package deal that rid us of Amar'e/Bargnani AND brought back both Jrue Holiday and Eric Gordon (overpaid but still good and effective).

I still would take Josh Smith before because I think he could be reached. His only issue is his shot selection and not necessarily his offense (after all, the guy was a league leader in his efficiency in the painted area the previous season). If we fix that through some Zen magic, he'd be an all-star candidate.

Josh Smith is a super talented bone head. If Phil wants to zenify him anew, I am all for it.

Huge HELL NO on eric gordon. And don't want Holiday either.

Lowry, Dragic, Collison, Teague

Oh, I never denied that Smith is a "bone-head". At the same time, most champions/contenders have had that kind of mercurial player on it (Lakers with Bynum, Odom and Artest; Boston with Rondo; Miami with Chalmers and now Beasley; Indiana with Stephenson; Chicago with Rodman;etc.). Two of the teams I mentioned were headed by Phil and they had several players that fit the description. It's why I think he and his underlings could successfully get through to Smith. If they do, it'd be a huge coup for us because the guy is very talented and could be had for cheap.

Why don't you like Gordon? He is uberly efficient, a very good defender, an excellent shooter/penetrator and plays within the team concept. Yeah, he's injured a lot and grossly overpaid but beggars can't be choosers and he wouldn't be available if that wasn't the case. We desperately need talent and he provides it in spades. I detest Tyreke Evans' game but if it meant getting Gordon and Jrue Holiday, who might be the best PG candidate in the triangle, I'd do it.

I can deal with efficient bone heads (rodman, stephenson, Odom (la version), champion years rondo) but not inefficient bone heads.

Gordon does not do enough and is way too streaky. For what he offers he is one of the worst salbatrosses.

Holiday is not an efficient shooter but does not make up for it with enough "other" contributions. Also getting paid way too much money.

NOH has really struck out with the players that they brought in.

Yes, but you would never have put up with Odom if you were LA's gm because he was inefficient before he got there. Sometimes you have to take risk if players fit a role and you know they give you other things. Like I can take a little inefficiency if you can shoot the three, play D, and pass. Holiday needs to take two less shots and get to the line more. Easier said than done but without that he easily fills the role of Derek Fisher who is a similar type player minus the passing. Holiday contract though is way to high though. If he was at 5-6M then I think you could take the risk. If a starter is in the 3-7M range they can always be moved to the bench(if willing).

Not every player has to be efficient. Values of guys like Battier, Horry and Bowen don't show up in the stat sheets as efficient yet they are very valuable. Stats are flawed in many ways and is continuously getting better. The eye test is still important mixed in with knowledge of data. 82games's 5 man rotations are also pretty insightful.

I personally am not a D Fisher fan.