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NardDogNation
Posts: 27405
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 5/7/2013
Member: #5555
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Finestrg wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Finestrg wrote:As far as using our MLE goes, these are the two FA PGs I'm most interested in. True they're 2nd tier PGs (probably the two best 2nd tier points out there though imo) but that bodes well as far as we go -- we just don't have the money to spend on any of the upper tier talent that may be out there in free agency. IMHO, Kyle Lowry's also a 2nd tier guy only this guy's rated higher than Collison & Mills. Thing is, I don't believe there's really much of a difference in these 3 guys at all. Talent-wise, I don't see any big separation between Kyle Lowry and Collison/Mills. Ability-wise, size, speed, age, etc., it's about a wash -- they're all in the same ballpark...Only main difference are the roles each of these guys play for there respective teams. Lowry started, played inflated starter mins (over 36 mins per this season), took almost 14 shots a game and his stats soared as a result, esp. PPG and assists. These other guys couldn't compete -- it wasn't a level playing field. Their roles are completely different -- they didn't play as much and didn't have the same amount of freedom:Lowry: 36.2 mins, 13.7 shots per, 6.3 3-pt shots/game, 4.9 FT attempts per, 7.4 apg, 17.9 ppg Collison: 25.9 mins, 8.7 shots per, 2.4 3-pt shots/game, 2.8 FT attempts per, 3.7 apg, 11.4 ppg Mills: 18.9 mins, 8.2 shots per, 3.9 3-pt shots/game, 1 FT attempt per, 1.8 apg, 10.2 ppg ------------------------- Point here is that Lowry's in a much better individual situation (one that benefits him greatly as far as his next contract goes) than either of these guys: he's been on a bad team playing extended mins where he's expected to score the ball, be 'the man' and assume most of the responsibility. These other guys play more of a supporting role for their teams, much better teams than the Toronto Raptors btw with much better players. You put Collison or Mills on that Toronto club and give them the same amount of mins and freedom, they'd duplicate Lowry's numbers pretty easily. Again, this bodes well for us -- the price will be too high for Lowry; meanwhile we real might be able to get one of the other two. i think we have a legit shot. I can't see the Clippers nor the Spurs offering these guys that much more of an expanded role over what they currently have, definitely not a starting gig, not while Paul and Parker are still around... Between Collison and Mills I might rank Collison a tad higher -- a little better defender, on par with Lowry. Then again, Mills might very well be the best offensive player of the three and if you really watch him, he's not a terrible defender and a pretty good ball-mover. Both guys had very efficient seasons statistically this year. The most we can offer either player is the full limited tax-paying MLE. Lowry won't accept that, not off his stat-inflated year; but either of these guys very well might. Esp. if we offered up a Kyle Lowry-type assurance of a starting role and starter mins (this last caveat might be key in trying to lure either guy---I bet either guy would love an expanded role and the responsibility of finally running their own club -- Collison did for a little bit in the past, filling in for Paul in N.O., then in Indy for a stretch and excelled both times. Mills has never really had that opportunity, though I think he could handle it). I think we have a legit shot to sign either guy and that's all we can ask for, given our cap situation. We'll have to see what opportunities present themselves (can't rule out upgrading the PG spot via either the trade or draft fronts as well) but this is where I'd start looking for my PG upgrade -- free agency with either Collison or Mills. I think either guy would be a steal for our limited MLE -- PGs as good as Kyle Lowry for a fraction of the cost, not to mention a sizeable upgrade over what we currently have in place with Felton and Prigioni. None of the guys you mentioned are fits in the triangle. Our new PG would have to be more like an SG; someone that is an excellent perimeter shooter, excellent defender and, most importantly, someone that can move without the ball. Candidates for that would include guys like Chauncey Billups of yesteryear, Brandon Knight, OJ Mayo, Jrue Holiday, Jimmer Fredette, Jarrett Jack, CJ MacCullom, George Hill, Rodney Stuckey, etc. If we are going to keep Melo, I've come around to the idea of adding Tyreke Evans in spite of him being grossly overpaid and overrated. The only way I'd do it is if they offer me Eric Gordon AND Jrue Holiday. I'd also bring in Josh Smith and Greg Monroe in a combo deal. That team would have excellent passers, great defensive play and some ability to stretch the floor-- all that you need to effectively run the triangle. Everyone's gonna have a different opinion on how to fix the situation -- I respect yours but don't agree. You're all over the map with your PG recommendations. You're recommending either guys that are over the hill, aren't natural PGs, are fixtures on their current teams, are too good (we're not getting Jrue Holiday--Evans will be the one for sale on that team if anything) or not good enough (Jimmer's no PG -- I understand he can shoot and he's a pretty good ball mover but he's not the PG upgrade I'm looking. Plus, he's not the defender you're talking about either. I'd argue Seth Curry's just as good a player; very similar, better for our needs possibly, a little younger/cheaper with maybe more upside as a PG). Brandon Knight's an intriguing name but he kinda falls into the Kyle Lowry category for me -- a guy who put up real gaudy numbers on a bad team. One major difference -- Lowry's a FA that's on the verge of cashing in; Knight's still salary controlled by Milwaukee over the next couple of seasons which makes him infinitely more attractive than Lowry--the Bucks are going to want to keep this kid around and continuing developing him. Right now he's an 18 ppg/5 asst PG that only costs $3.75mm next year with a QO of just over $5mm the following year. That's a tremendous asset to have under control for the time being, a bargain like that). I'm talking about getting a deal -- guys that will soon be on the market that may fit our price range. I mentioned a couple of guys that, in my humble opinion, are in the same category ability-wise as the Kyle Lowrys, the Brandon Knights etc., but haven't put up inflated numbers thus far and therefore won't cost nearly as much money. Analyzing/considering who's out there in FA and who we might be able to lure with our limited tax-paying MLE -- that's my criteria for this thread. In those terms specifically, Darren Collison and Patty Mills are at the top of a very short list. I understand neither of these guys are 6'3" PGs like Knight but what's the real difference between 6'0" and 6'3" anyway for a point? What's the undeniable advantage here? To me, height-wise, you only start talking major advantage when you get to the jumbo-sized PGs -- the Magic Johnsons, the Michael-Carter Williamses, the Tyreke Evanses, etc...Otherwise, give me guys that are efficient and can perform at a high level (Collison & Mills fit the bill here); guys that project out to put up even better numbers if given more PT/more responsibility (I'm talking about turning over the starting PG spot to either guy while hopefully maintaining top efficiency. I'd forecast there's a pretty good chance of that happening with either guy). I don't care if they're only 6' tall. I wouldn't even have a problem with a guy like Pierre Jackson who's only 5'10". I mean Chris Paul's only 6 feet tall. How's he? Onto Tyreke Evans -- I like him. Like the fact that he's still young, he's plus-sized (if you look at him as a PG -- I look at him more as a combo), he's talented and also like that he very well could be made available in a deal. I like the fact that he could be a big-time reclamation project--a guy that could easily get back to the production we saw early on in Sacramento if he's put in the right situation and utilized properly -- if he is, his $10mm/year price tag would then be looked at as a steal. I disagree that we could get Evans, Holiday AND Eric Gordon in one package though. Not happening. Come on Nard -- for what? Tyson Chandler? Gimme the proposal... That's too premium a package to assume. Evans could be available though -- that's a distinct possibility. He played better down the stretch of the season but as a whole, he had a down year. NO was looking to move him at the deadline -- that may still be the case. I'd start with Chandler and would be willing to go as high as Chandler/THJ/future 2nd round pick if I could get other promising secondary pieces back in the deal: Luke Babbitt, Alexis Ajinca, Jeff Withey, the rights the Pierre Jackson, their 2nd round pick at 40, etc.). I think some of these ancillary pieces are more in line with what we could expect to get back with Evans -- to take on Evans' salary, I'd require getting back a few of these sweeteners in fact (some of these guys like Luke Babbitt could be real good players for us if developed properly)....but to think we could get Evans/Holiday AND Gordon back in the same deal is wishful thinking. I wouldn't even want that back. Too much salary coming back, too much of a cap burden and it wouldn't put us anywhere near championship caliber. Same with bringing in Josh Smith & Greg Monroe. Nice enough players but together way too expensive (and you would want Stuckey too, right?) for what would only amount to 2nd tier talent. Smith/Monroe/Stuckey even with Melo won't be enough for a title. I don't even see how that group even gels together. That would feel like an Isiah Thomas put-together team...IMO, the plan should be to either bring back Melo OR SIGN AND TRADE him off to another team -- right now it looks like Chicago could be a destination. We need to expand the market for him to drive up the bidding. I've said that since day one...Are the Lakers and Rockets players in this? If so, great. Work the opportunities to the fullest...If not, work to get them imvolved here. If Melo really wants to leave AND get paid top dollar, he and the Knicks need to work together to get something done that works for both sides (the Knicks sign him to his max and then flip him to whatever team offers the best package in return. That's gotta be the guideline -- everybody could win in that situation). This guy can't be allowed to leave for nothing. If that occurs - EPIC FAIL...Otherwise, work toward resigning him. Tell him it's obviously gonna be a transition year somewhat and that we can only do so much this year before we step into major cap space the following summer. That's not to say we can't be competitive next year -- with the right amount of low-cost tinkering, we absolutely could! If we could get back in the playoffs and come up with a few talented/low-salary components to transition forward with AND THEN clear out enough cap room to bring in a MAJOR piece or 2 the following year -- we could be right back on top of the Atlantic division, talking championships again. In the meantime, with or w/o Melo, fortify the roster with some promising young talent, however we can acquire it -- if that means looking at DL-level talent because that's all we can afford right now, only look at bringing in a Patty Mills or a Darren Collison in FA for the low MLE, maybe re-signing Cole Aldrich, maybe buying a 2nd round pick, so be it. What else can we realistically expect this summer? If they can do more (some kind of semi-blockbuster with New Orleans for Evans for example), fabulous. If they get back the proper amount of secondary talent in the process, I'll support that move....If not, so be it. It's a process.. If Melo can't swallow being patient, there's the door buddy. We'll do it without you -- break it all down and execute a proper rebuild.. I didn't mean any offense. I respect your insights but disagree with you on this particular subject. And it isn't because I don't like Collision or Mills. The fact is that I like them a lot but they are more prototypical PG's than they are triangle PG's. With prototypical PG's their is a much greater emphasis on being able to be a primary ball handler and orchestrate for others as students of the Jason Kidd, Magic Johnson, John Stockton school of PGs. In the triangle, the system itself is the shot creator, which de-emphasizes these skills and places far greater influence on player and ball movement. That's why combo guards (many of whom could not pass the ball into the ocean) are more successful in this system e.g. Derek Fisher, Ron Harper, Brian Shaw, etc. The guys I listed in my previous post are ALL combo guards of this ilk, who could excel in this system, without consideration for their availability, talent level, etc. As for an Evans-Gordon-Holiday trade, it may not make us a contender but neither would getting Evans alone. At least if we get Gordon and Holiday in the deal, we'd have a complete and capable backcourt that would compliment Melo well. If we sent Amare's expirer, Tim Hardaway Jr and a PG from a 3rd team (e.g. Brandon Jennings and Rodney Stuckey), I think we'd have a deal. Gordon and Evans represent two of the worst contracts in the league, so its the least NO could do to compensate us for taking them. After all, Evans was so bad that the Kings were not even interested in re-signing him and Gordon has been on the trade block ever since he received his extension. With Holiday's health in question, I wouldn't be surprised if he finds himself on the trade block either. I also realize that Monroe and Josh Smith would cost a lot but what contender doesn't spend big money? There is a toll that any aspiring team has to pay. At least with those two, we'd have an exceptionally talented front court that would be adept at spacing the floor, defending, rebounding and passing/moving the ball. There is a premium on those skills in the triangle, so if we were to combine those guys with Holiday-Gordon-Evans, we'd have a pretty good team if healthy. Being healthy would be a BIG "if" though but if there were no risk involved, we would not be able to acquire those guys. |
