mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:......and woodson was the coach.

This speaks to the roster construction more than anything.

We also had the oldest roster in history. After 18-6 and 54 game season woodson had two years left on his deal and Kidd underminding him for the job is not cool. Kidd sold himself to Billy King and did a great job!

Kudo's to him. Sheed stuck around and was a nice force with the team.

Kidd signed a 3 year deal and we just don't know if he not gotten the Net gig would he have returned?

Bottom line is Nets took a big risk with Kidd. When do the knicks do such a thing? They pay top dollar for the starphuck big name that comes with big cred. Knicks don't have a history under dolan of being "visionairies" do we?

Im not defending woodson, but he is not turrible! Remember we fired the GM before the season started and installed a numbers guy as the Gm

Btw, since we fired the GM at the beginning of the season and installed a "numbers" guy, guess what, we have not made any stupid trades, given up any stupid draft picks, starphucked, coachphucked ...

Isn't that interesting? We get rid of a HORRIBLE GM and replace him with a guy who looks at numbers and whaddya know, we are sort of tanking the season without any desperation moves and now have Phil in place to rebuild it.

If anybody can't see that Grunwald out and Steve Mills is a very good thing, then they are really not seeing the big picture and looking at things via Old-School-Glasses.

Mills is a smart dude from princeton who I think that people are underestimating. He is going to do lots of leg work and research/analysis for phil.

I disagree about Grunwald. I thought he was pretty savy and did as much as he could with little wiggle room in regards to cap and assets. I also think he was very resourceful in finding guys all over the world that would play for nothing but be in the rotation. I thought his use of Jorts, Jordan, Gadz and Jeffries deals was smart. He drafted Hardaway. He built last years team. I lean more towards Larry Brown's take on Mills. Also, not sure what he was thinking playing Shump in that game when he had a trade in place

Tyson Chandler/CB, Bargs, Camby, Felton, Prigs (resign), JR/Chris, Metta, Lin, Kidd (thought he gifted the knicks the last 2 year

Name me JUST ONE great move that he made to cover up the stink?

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:......and woodson was the coach.

This speaks to the roster construction more than anything.

We also had the oldest roster in history. After 18-6 and 54 game season woodson had two years left on his deal and Kidd underminding him for the job is not cool. Kidd sold himself to Billy King and did a great job!

Kudo's to him. Sheed stuck around and was a nice force with the team.

Kidd signed a 3 year deal and we just don't know if he not gotten the Net gig would he have returned?

Bottom line is Nets took a big risk with Kidd. When do the knicks do such a thing? They pay top dollar for the starphuck big name that comes with big cred. Knicks don't have a history under dolan of being "visionairies" do we?

Im not defending woodson, but he is not turrible! Remember we fired the GM before the season started and installed a numbers guy as the Gm

Btw, since we fired the GM at the beginning of the season and installed a "numbers" guy, guess what, we have not made any stupid trades, given up any stupid draft picks, starphucked, coachphucked ...

Isn't that interesting? We get rid of a HORRIBLE GM and replace him with a guy who looks at numbers and whaddya know, we are sort of tanking the season without any desperation moves and now have Phil in place to rebuild it.

If anybody can't see that Grunwald out and Steve Mills is a very good thing, then they are really not seeing the big picture and looking at things via Old-School-Glasses.

Mills is a smart dude from princeton who I think that people are underestimating. He is going to do lots of leg work and research/analysis for phil.

I disagree about Grunwald. I thought he was pretty savy and did as much as he could with little wiggle room in regards to cap and assets. I also think he was very resourceful in finding guys all over the world that would play for nothing but be in the rotation. I thought his use of Jorts, Jordan, Gadz and Jeffries deals was smart. He drafted Hardaway. He built last years team. I lean more towards Larry Brown's take on Mills. Also, not sure what he was thinking playing Shump in that game when he had a trade in place

Tyson Chandler/CB, Bargs, Camby, Felton, Prigs (resign), JR/Chris, Metta, Lin, Kidd (thought he gifted the knicks the last 2 year

Name me JUST ONE great move that he made to cover up the stink?

He had a 54 win season..No one wants Lin's contract, certainly not Houston..

So what. That makes those moves good? Circular logic again. 54 wins in one season make a GM good? It makes a coach good? It makes any player on the team good? Does it make us good fans? One season with many variables proves or disproves nothing unless you really would like it to.

We NEEDED Lin and his contract. It would not have affected 2015 cap space, any fan that claims to care just cares about Dolan and his money. However, lets not turn this into a regurgitated Lin argument there is nothing new here.

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:......and woodson was the coach.

This speaks to the roster construction more than anything.

We also had the oldest roster in history. After 18-6 and 54 game season woodson had two years left on his deal and Kidd underminding him for the job is not cool. Kidd sold himself to Billy King and did a great job!

Kudo's to him. Sheed stuck around and was a nice force with the team.

Kidd signed a 3 year deal and we just don't know if he not gotten the Net gig would he have returned?

Bottom line is Nets took a big risk with Kidd. When do the knicks do such a thing? They pay top dollar for the starphuck big name that comes with big cred. Knicks don't have a history under dolan of being "visionairies" do we?

Im not defending woodson, but he is not turrible! Remember we fired the GM before the season started and installed a numbers guy as the Gm

Btw, since we fired the GM at the beginning of the season and installed a "numbers" guy, guess what, we have not made any stupid trades, given up any stupid draft picks, starphucked, coachphucked ...

Isn't that interesting? We get rid of a HORRIBLE GM and replace him with a guy who looks at numbers and whaddya know, we are sort of tanking the season without any desperation moves and now have Phil in place to rebuild it.

If anybody can't see that Grunwald out and Steve Mills is a very good thing, then they are really not seeing the big picture and looking at things via Old-School-Glasses.

Mills is a smart dude from princeton who I think that people are underestimating. He is going to do lots of leg work and research/analysis for phil.

I disagree about Grunwald. I thought he was pretty savy and did as much as he could with little wiggle room in regards to cap and assets. I also think he was very resourceful in finding guys all over the world that would play for nothing but be in the rotation. I thought his use of Jorts, Jordan, Gadz and Jeffries deals was smart. He drafted Hardaway. He built last years team. I lean more towards Larry Brown's take on Mills. Also, not sure what he was thinking playing Shump in that game when he had a trade in place

Tyson Chandler/CB, Bargs, Camby, Felton, Prigs (resign), JR/Chris, Metta, Lin, Kidd (thought he gifted the knicks the last 2 year

Name me JUST ONE great move that he made to cover up the stink?

He had a 54 win season..No one wants Lin's contract, certainly not Houston..

So what. That makes those moves good? Circular logic again. 54 wins in one season make a GM good? It makes a coach good? It makes any player on the team good? Does it make us good fans? One season with many variables proves or disproves nothing unless you really would like it to.

We NEEDED Lin and his contract. It would not have affected 2015 cap space, any fan that claims to care just cares about Dolan and his money. However, lets not turn this into a regurgitated Lin argument there is nothing new here.

What do u mean so what??..His hands were tied contract wise...He put together a team with what's available that won 54 games...That's called a good job...They length of the deals sucked because these players were old and a short term stop gap until contracts roll off..making lemonade out if lemons..

So you sign geriatrics to long term deals, Kidd kills it for you and almost dies doing it, you win a lot of (regular season) games, your geriatrics are too old to hold up and help you in the postseason, and now, you are stuck with geezers for the dead years of a contract, and you are just tickled pink because of the worthless 54?

Don't know why you hang your hat on that like a trophy - you are suffering from battered fan syndrome.

I do not want to over blame woodson because blame should be spread all around and he did a good job last season (when Kidd was healthy), but he does not get a pass this season because of last season. That's preposterous.

But it does not really matter anymore because Walsh is gone, Grunwald is gone, Woody is gone, and many of the rest of this sorry squad.

It does not make or break anyone, its just one year. To actually judge someone you need to look at their career resume.

The same goes on the flip side - you can't say woody is a HORRIBLE coach because he did a bad job this year. Again, its only one year and there are other contributing variables.

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:Hotfresh, give credit for the good year. Thats it.

It does not make or break anyone, its just one year. To actually judge someone you need to look at their career resume.

The same goes on the flip side - you can't say woody is a HORRIBLE coach because he did a bad job this year. Again, its only one year and there are other contributing variables.

Woodson had a good career..

.460 regular season
.391 playoff record

Thats not a "good" career.

Now you can rationalize but that does not really hold up well since everyone is judge on this scale. bad luck, good luck, no luck ... thats life.

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:......and woodson was the coach.

This speaks to the roster construction more than anything.

We also had the oldest roster in history. After 18-6 and 54 game season woodson had two years left on his deal and Kidd underminding him for the job is not cool. Kidd sold himself to Billy King and did a great job!

Kudo's to him. Sheed stuck around and was a nice force with the team.

Kidd signed a 3 year deal and we just don't know if he not gotten the Net gig would he have returned?

Bottom line is Nets took a big risk with Kidd. When do the knicks do such a thing? They pay top dollar for the starphuck big name that comes with big cred. Knicks don't have a history under dolan of being "visionairies" do we?

Im not defending woodson, but he is not turrible! Remember we fired the GM before the season started and installed a numbers guy as the Gm

Btw, since we fired the GM at the beginning of the season and installed a "numbers" guy, guess what, we have not made any stupid trades, given up any stupid draft picks, starphucked, coachphucked ...

Isn't that interesting? We get rid of a HORRIBLE GM and replace him with a guy who looks at numbers and whaddya know, we are sort of tanking the season without any desperation moves and now have Phil in place to rebuild it.

If anybody can't see that Grunwald out and Steve Mills is a very good thing, then they are really not seeing the big picture and looking at things via Old-School-Glasses.

Mills is a smart dude from princeton who I think that people are underestimating. He is going to do lots of leg work and research/analysis for phil.

I disagree about Grunwald. I thought he was pretty savy and did as much as he could with little wiggle room in regards to cap and assets. I also think he was very resourceful in finding guys all over the world that would play for nothing but be in the rotation. I thought his use of Jorts, Jordan, Gadz and Jeffries deals was smart. He drafted Hardaway. He built last years team. I lean more towards Larry Brown's take on Mills. Also, not sure what he was thinking playing Shump in that game when he had a trade in place

Tyson Chandler/CB, Bargs, Camby, Felton, Prigs (resign), JR/Chris, Metta, Lin, Kidd (thought he gifted the knicks the last 2 year

Name me JUST ONE great move that he made to cover up the stink?

The mistake with Billups was made when Walsh picked up his option. Getting Chandler as a gm was a coup at the time. Amnestying Billups was forced by Walsh picking up Billup's option. I thought bringing in Prigs and Cope were great moves. I also thought bringing in Lin was a great move. Not matching the poison pill deal is nothing I would kill Grunwald for. Getting Camby didn't work out but it seemed like a good move at the time. Chandler seems to be only able to play 60 games a year. I also don't think Felton was a bad signing. His contract is very reasonable and probably on par for his talent level. He just shouldn't be your second best player in the eastern conference semi finals. I also liked the Kidd signing. He played way too many minutes but his play and leadership have definitely been missed and you are right about the Knicks being off the hook for his deal. Chris Smith wasn't a Grunwald signing. That is Mill's signature move up until he signed Shannon Brown. I also liked the KMart signing. Again, Grunwald had league mini deals to work with and not much more.

Picking up the CB option may have been a bad move but amnestying him was even worse and handcuffed us until 2015. That was HORRIBLE. And starting the season with TD as our #1? [shudder]

This is not between grunwald and walsh because they were both awful.

4x4 million per is not on par with the worst PG in the league. Did he see how he played on Portland?

Kidd was an awful move. He got let off the hook but that does not make the move nOT bad and desperate.

Camby may have "seemed" like a good move, so did the Bargs move.

When your signature moves are prigs and cope and the rest were dreadful, that is a bit embarrassing.

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:Hotfresh, give credit for the good year. Thats it.

It does not make or break anyone, its just one year. To actually judge someone you need to look at their career resume.

The same goes on the flip side - you can't say woody is a HORRIBLE coach because he did a bad job this year. Again, its only one year and there are other contributing variables.

Woodson had a good career..

.460 regular season
.391 playoff record

Thats not a "good" career.

Now you can rationalize but that does not really hold up well since everyone is judge on this scale. bad luck, good luck, no luck ... thats life.

Stop it,...Woodson improved a bad Atlanta team every year...They played a highly seeded Chicago team tough in the playoffs one year ...Best Knick coach in over a decade ...18-6, 54 win season..Check the results..

You aren't going deep into the playoffs without Superstars..That's life but u can blame him...

I don't blame him but at the same time you can't use semantics to say that he has had a good career.

personally, my main problems with him is the switching defense and how awful they are at PnR, the ISO offense and end of quarters/half play calling. I am sure you have many reasons why its not his fault but he is accountable just like he gets credit for wins.

Happy he is a gonner.

CrushAlot wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:Hotfresh, give credit for the good year. Thats it.

It does not make or break anyone, its just one year. To actually judge someone you need to look at their career resume.

The same goes on the flip side - you can't say woody is a HORRIBLE coach because he did a bad job this year. Again, its only one year and there are other contributing variables.

Woodson had a good career..

.460 regular season
.391 playoff record

Thats not a "good" career.

Now you can rationalize but that does not really hold up well since everyone is judge on this scale. bad luck, good luck, no luck ... thats life.

Stop it,...Woodson improved a bad Atlanta team every year...They played a highly seeded Chicago team tough in the playoffs one year ...Best Knick coach in over a decade ...18-6, 54 win season..Check the results..

You aren't going deep into the playoffs without Superstars..That's life but u can blame him...

Lets be real. For the first five games in the Pacers series Felton was the #2 scorer and he wasn't scoring a lot. What does any coach do with that roster?

Idk, try some of your subs? Can't get worse than Felton right?

You can create ball movement with bad players but without ball movement, bad players look really exposed.

It also did not help him that Melo was forcing so many awful shots - THERE IS NEVER AN EXCUSE FOR THAT, I DON'T CARE IF HE WAS PLAYING WITH WNBA PLAYERS.

Woodson is not a HOF coach, but I don't think he kept this roster down.

While every year and ever roster has its own personality, we have had a stream of HOF coach's in and out over the years and unless the roster is proper it won't matter.

Guys like Vogel and JVG step up when they understand what they got and work a system to the strength of it. When you bring in an outside "System" guy you are usually are hiring a guy that you want to build around his schematic. If not, your wasting your money. MDA and nellie are two of our examples. Larry Brown was intoxicated with a big contract and I suspect Isiah might have been on his way out or Dolan forced Larry upon Isiah. Either way it was "clumsy"!

Woodson was a compromise type hire who saw what the team needed and was given the gig to not bring in a system, but work with what was there. He did a good job. Not a great job, but a good job. This year bought challanges upon the roster that might have just been uncoachable when you have a back court such as ours, injuries mounted. Bargnani was a disaster but our .500 record without him might be more due to Stat returning to some extent, Metta and Beno exiled, and more important Tyson having a very good second half!

When your sub .500 the coaching mistakes will be magnified. When you follow one team as many of us do we tend to magnify EVERYTHING and assume other coaches don't make boo boo's! They do.

Woodson in his each of his two training camps had distinctly different rosters. 54 win he had some nice veteran presence and this year when JR and Melo were asked to step up and fill that void they did not measure up. Melo might be a supreme talent but leadership character might not be a major quality.

Lots of blame to go around. Thinking a new coach with this roster would have been magical might be naive. If we bring in a new coach, Im sure we'll have a bit of roster changes and even role players can change the complexity of a team (Novak, cope, Kidd, etc) from one year to another.

Woodson has a good track record of improving a team in his career. He is not HOF material, but not a bad coach.

Nalod wrote:
Blaming Woodson for the majority of knicks bad season demonstrates a lack of perspective on the big picture that is the knick organization.

Woodson is not a HOF coach, but I don't think he kept this roster down.

While every year and ever roster has its own personality, we have had a stream of HOF coach's in and out over the years and unless the roster is proper it won't matter.

Guys like Vogel and JVG step up when they understand what they got and work a system to the strength of it. When you bring in an outside "System" guy you are usually are hiring a guy that you want to build around his schematic. If not, your wasting your money. MDA and nellie are two of our examples. Larry Brown was intoxicated with a big contract and I suspect Isiah might have been on his way out or Dolan forced Larry upon Isiah. Either way it was "clumsy"!

Woodson was a compromise type hire who saw what the team needed and was given the gig to not bring in a system, but work with what was there. He did a good job. Not a great job, but a good job. This year bought challanges upon the roster that might have just been uncoachable when you have a back court such as ours, injuries mounted. Bargnani was a disaster but our .500 record without him might be more due to Stat returning to some extent, Metta and Beno exiled, and more important Tyson having a very good second half!

When your sub .500 the coaching mistakes will be magnified. When you follow one team as many of us do we tend to magnify EVERYTHING and assume other coaches don't make boo boo's! They do.

Woodson in his each of his two training camps had distinctly different rosters. 54 win he had some nice veteran presence and this year when JR and Melo were asked to step up and fill that void they did not measure up. Melo might be a supreme talent but leadership character might not be a major quality.

Lots of blame to go around. Thinking a new coach with this roster would have been magical might be naive. If we bring in a new coach, Im sure we'll have a bit of roster changes and even role players can change the complexity of a team (Novak, cope, Kidd, etc) from one year to another.

Woodson has a good track record of improving a team in his career. He is not HOF material, but not a bad coach.