grillco wrote:

mreinman wrote:http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/bondy-jackson-anthony-melo-article-1.1720052

Bondy has a different take. I think I may have to agree with him.

I didn't jibe with Bondy's perspective. I have issues with the concept of whether any player makes his teammates better. It's a nice notion, but Jordan's teammates weren't "better" until they got better players. Pippen, Grant, and the like were great players and they and the coaches took advantage of the opposition's focus on trying to contain MJ. Similar with the Lakers, Shaq couldn't do it himself and arguably never made anyone better directly, but the emergence of Kobe as a bonafide player. Like the Bulls, they had or acquired the perfect complimentary players. These teams were also pretty consistent as far as line ups went and had gelled...that hasn't happened in NY for over a decade.

Neither Denver nor the Knicks have done this for Melo. He's been playing with the aged and injured most of his career. Nene was pretty much his best and most consistent teammate. As it has been with his career to date, he's still getting his shots even when well covered and his teammates and coaches are highly inconsistent in their ability take advantage of doubles or pick up any slack when he's having a bad night.

This is not being blinded by any perceived love for Melo, it's just an objective observation. Now if you bring a second fiddle and that solid mix of cagey vets and enthusiastic youth and they can all maintain their health while keeping Melo the primary offensive focus and they still can't do significantly better than they have during his tenure...well, then there'd be a valid argument about how he is as a teammate.

This is similar to what happened with Ewing in NY. They took too long to put a killer team around him. By the time they did the Bulls had fully formed into their monstrous selves...then there was the playoff fight with the Heat in what looked like their year, Ewing's wrist explodes, Spree comes to town and lights a fire, but disrupts things a ton and they've been mired in mediocrity ever since.

I don't care who the "star" is. This is team sport and no one guy makes it happen. LeBron couldn't do it in Cleveland and we all agree that he's better than Melo. We might even agree that his team in Cleveland was better than the Knicks since before Melo came to NY...hell, we'd have to since they went to the finals! So if Melo goes, as long as they replace him and build a great around whoever that player may be, I'll be happy if they find a way to win and be really competitive.

camby, kenyon, iverson, billups, were not aged and injured.. one was DPOY, the other two guards are HOF guards.. Iverson was still in his prime years when he played with carmelo.. In NY carmelo had JR a 6th man of the year and DPOY on the same team.. lets stop acting like he had no one to play with.. take a look at carmelo's playoff numbers.. the 41% shooting, the lack of assists and defense.. and you will see he is as big a culprit to his lack of success as anyone else...

As far as Ewing goes.. Please, Ewing was a Beast.. and the knicks tried to put teams around Ewing, but in the end, Ewing had teams like the pacers, detroit, miami as well as the bulls... the east was stacked with good teams, teams that were equally as good as the knicks, and throw in teams like the cavs and charlotte and you had a tough road.. ewing was in two finals, one in which he was hurt(spurs) He had chances, his best chance vs the rockets, but he went up against Hakeem.. sometimes great players fall short, or lose to other great players.... but the key is, Ewing played very well, just got beat...

What's obviously really meaningful to some in here: 29-win seasons, cap space playing with yourself and drafting the Fred Weis' of the world.

As long as none of it includes that dog-killing Melo.

Unreal.

BUT I did NOT know we were going to get Phil Jackson. What I think Phil can do is he'll be able to see our deficiencies and inconsistencies at PG. I think last night you can see value in Cole Aldrich that almost no none has seen this year--namely Mike Woodson. You start adding guys like Chandler Amare what Aldrich can do add in more defensive + rebounding depth where Amare can play 20 minutes and stay healthy--where we have rim protectors all game long--add in a much better PG spot and quality depth al around- a JR Smith who is healthy and in good shape with melo and THJ--add in a quality two new PG's and we can get back to where we were and maybe better from last year. Can we use our ending contracts to bring in guys like Jeff Green maybe a JJ Hickson or Faried use the MLE on a DJ Augustine or Patty Mills draft a quality young PG and maybe pick up another young C from the draft that can learn and play a little.--I think their are avenues that are faster WITH Melo now than without.

jrodmc wrote:Yes, Melo the unidimensional player who
lead the team in rebounding for most of the season
leads the team in steals.
Averages 4-5 assists per game from the 4 spot.
Holds meaningless franchise moments like:
> Leading scorer (except for some people, the game is still about buckets)
> Making the playoffs every year since being here, despite playing with mostly hobbled dregs and one blown up starphuch. Oh yes, that's his fault that he's not instead playing with hobbled Gallo and Moz and the Mayor instead. With a combination of great draft picks pulled out of the great Knicks management azz draft history that we read about ad nauseum in here.
> getting out of the first round for the first time in 15 years.
> Division champs
> 50 wins

What's obviously really meaningful to some in here: 29-win seasons, cap space playing with yourself and drafting the Fred Weis' of the world.

As long as none of it includes that dog-killing Melo.

Unreal.

it's funny you and others say he has garbage to play with in NY and then use stats of him leading the team to support your argument of how good he is.. lol.. trash leading trash isn't much to celebrate....

how about these stats:

41% career playoff shooter..
worst playoff record among active players
The dregs you mention? he is actually one of them come playoff time
getting out of the first round for the first time in 15 years? rofl.. so is that a product of carmelo being great or the knicks just being bad the past years? haha

now why not mention how many wins we have this year? how many games under .500 we have been?

i will wait.......

BRIGGS wrote:I was in the club of trade Melo at the deadline and I was also in the club if we lose melo--were fcked and we must rebuild and can rebuild.

BUT I did NOT know we were going to get Phil Jackson. What I think Phil can do is he'll be able to see our deficiencies and inconsistencies at PG. I think last night you can see value in Cole Aldrich that almost no none has seen this year--namely Mike Woodson. You start adding guys like Chandler Amare what Aldrich can do add in more defensive + rebounding depth where Amare can play 20 minutes and stay healthy--where we have rim protectors all game long--add in a much better PG spot and quality depth al around- a JR Smith who is healthy and in good shape with melo and THJ--add in a quality two new PG's and we can get back to where we were and maybe better from last year. Can we use our ending contracts to bring in guys like Jeff Green maybe a JJ Hickson or Faried use the MLE on a DJ Augustine or Patty Mills draft a quality young PG and maybe pick up another young C from the draft that can learn and play a little.--I think their are avenues that are faster WITH Melo now than without.

lots of verbiage but at the end of the day melo is far from a complete player and how can you possibly expect a title with him in a primary role? you just can't. you're avenues are dead ends.

BRIGGS wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Yes, Melo the unidimensional player who
lead the team in rebounding for most of the season
leads the team in steals.
Averages 4-5 assists per game from the 4 spot.
Holds meaningless franchise moments like:
> Leading scorer (except for some people, the game is still about buckets)
> Making the playoffs every year since being here, despite playing with mostly hobbled dregs and one blown up starphuch. Oh yes, that's his fault that he's not instead playing with hobbled Gallo and Moz and the Mayor instead. With a combination of great draft picks pulled out of the great Knicks management azz draft history that we read about ad nauseum in here.
> getting out of the first round for the first time in 15 years.
> Division champs
> 50 wins

What's obviously really meaningful to some in here: 29-win seasons, cap space playing with yourself and drafting the Fred Weis' of the world.

As long as none of it includes that dog-killing Melo.

Unreal.

it's funny you and others say he has garbage to play with in NY and then use stats of him leading the team to support your argument of how good he is.. lol.. trash leading trash isn't much to celebrate....

how about these stats:

41% career playoff shooter..
worst playoff record among active players
The dregs you mention? he is actually one of them come playoff time
getting out of the first round for the first time in 15 years? rofl.. so is that a product of carmelo being great or the knicks just being bad the past years? haha

now why not mention how many wins we have this year? how many games under .500 we have been?

i will wait.......

tfk--melo is a top 10 NBA player--not easy to replace and can score 30 every night with an efg over 50%. Both Melo and Dolan were stupid getting him here--if both waited 3 months--our position wouldve been 10 times better. But you look at the position we are in now--were better with melo than without him. Im scared he would walk still scared but with Phil I feel we have a much better chance of doing things the right way. But a key to the strategy is keeping melo.

Im swinging back toward keeping melo but with Phil, as mentioned we have more leverage. If Melo takes a discount and there is a path that lands additional talent then its important we keep him.

Melo can also be traded if it does not work.

TK, Melo can carry a franshise for a few weeks but not a season. We have seen this. Really in this age just Durant and Lebrone can carry a team night after night. Thats it. Kobe is shot, Nash is cooked, Dwight does not have the tools, Harden is high volume, CP3 is not there, Blake is a cornerstone but not in the same league as others...........

Melo as a piece.

Melo is not in denver anymore, nor is he 25. We not talking Iverson, Kenyan, Nene, Birdman, Billups or others. THat was then.
Players can adapt. Players can evolve. Melo can pass, but nobody is making him. Melo is the draw, he is the face and fans want to see him put up 39 a game. Its why many buy tickets. Now he wants to "win". Well is he true to his conviction that this is his "New" priority and would take less in a contract to make it work? We don't know.

Melo can rebound, melo can pass, but he is paid to score. IN my opinion Melo is not paid to win games. Thats wrong.

Lets hope Phil makes it right. I'd rather have Lebron feeding Melo than Melo feeding JR.

gunsnewing wrote:It just goes to show Michael Woodson had no idea what to do with this roster from day one in training camp

Woodson has no leverage, had a clumsy roster and an enabled star who holds the franshise by the short hairs. He had an out of shape JR, Chris, Bargs forced upon him, his GM was shyt canned and his point is a gun toteing lady slut who cheats on his wife.

Who foretold this? Sir charles!!!!!

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:You do realize that Camby and Kenyon were often injured

kenyon moreso than camby, marcus played 29,29,72,66,56,70,79 from 2002-2006, he was relatively healthy bro.. sorry, and he had guys like iverson and billups on that team.. carmelo had a team that suffered no more injuries than most other guys have to deal with in the NBA.. another excuse for this dude... lets address the things that we know he can help... .like his play.. why so poor in the playoffs?

Iverson? How many tools did Iverson bring to the table, Mr. I talk Basketball With No Hidden Agenda Only?

Billups on his way to the HOF?

What the fuhuck are you talking about?

Iverson was a better player than carmelo.. end of story.. he is a hall of famer for sure..

Billups is a champion a finals MVP and in most cases a fringe hall of fame player.. thats debatable and if it is, then it just supports the argument that carmelo had guys to play with... the fact is that he is a playoff bust, his 41% shooting, lack of assist and no defense stops himself from winning..

Iverson? 21.8 shots a game with a TS of .518.

Efficient?

Bad attitude, lazy on defense (aside from his dumb gambles on steals which Clyde said really hurt his play), the ultimate chucker ...

This is the guy you bring up as your argument?

+1
Wait until he tells you how JKidd led us to the playoffs last year.

BRIGGS wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Yes, Melo the unidimensional player who
lead the team in rebounding for most of the season
leads the team in steals.
Averages 4-5 assists per game from the 4 spot.
Holds meaningless franchise moments like:
> Leading scorer (except for some people, the game is still about buckets)
> Making the playoffs every year since being here, despite playing with mostly hobbled dregs and one blown up starphuch. Oh yes, that's his fault that he's not instead playing with hobbled Gallo and Moz and the Mayor instead. With a combination of great draft picks pulled out of the great Knicks management azz draft history that we read about ad nauseum in here.
> getting out of the first round for the first time in 15 years.
> Division champs
> 50 wins

What's obviously really meaningful to some in here: 29-win seasons, cap space playing with yourself and drafting the Fred Weis' of the world.

As long as none of it includes that dog-killing Melo.

Unreal.

it's funny you and others say he has garbage to play with in NY and then use stats of him leading the team to support your argument of how good he is.. lol.. trash leading trash isn't much to celebrate....

how about these stats:

41% career playoff shooter..
worst playoff record among active players
The dregs you mention? he is actually one of them come playoff time
getting out of the first round for the first time in 15 years? rofl.. so is that a product of carmelo being great or the knicks just being bad the past years? haha

now why not mention how many wins we have this year? how many games under .500 we have been?

i will wait.......

tfk--melo is a top 10 NBA player--not easy to replace and can score 30 every night with an efg over 50%. Both Melo and Dolan were stupid getting him here--if both waited 3 months--our position wouldve been 10 times better. But you look at the position we are in now--were better with melo than without him. Im scared he would walk still scared but with Phil I feel we have a much better chance of doing things the right way. But a key to the strategy is keeping melo.

is the goal to win a championship or just be happy we make it to the final four? because that is the cieling for a team with melo as a second option or a first option.

your scenario is like expecting to win it all with mark aguirre.