Bonn1997 wrote:When every back-court member is this bad, how can you criticize the coaches rotations?

The Knicks are still talented enough to be further up the standings and he hasn't helped matters:

-He never sorted out and stuck to a rotation and is still "trying to figure it out"
-Only just started putting Shump on opposing PGs in, I believe, the last month or so
-Waited almost half a season to go to the 2 PG sets that were a strong point last season
-continues to allow this team to switch non-f'ing-stop
-Shorter rotations, forced by injury, have yielded stronger play (not even talking about the recent weak 4 game winning streak)yet he continues to toss guy's in for inconsistent min and the overall team play decreases as a result

I'm beginning to think his preference for vets is due to his lack of ability to adapt in games.

Knixkik wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:Felton has the worst court vision of any starting pg

He's also a poor shooter, which is bad when it comes to playing next to Melo. He has a ton of poor shooting games, and rarely gets hot to offset it. We need a shooter who can make the defense pay for doubling Melo and not turn the ball over. Prigioni fits that role as a backup PG, just can't play starter's minutes. We are really limited as a team until we find a reasonable upgrade though.

We had shooters around Melo last year....and won 54 games.

nyk4ever wrote:this is why i dont understand why woodson doesn't give murry more of a chance? felton's defense on knight at the end of the game was atrocious last night, he backed off him and let him shoot ball! murry might make a mistake here and there but the kid gives effort and quite frankly has played well when given the opportunity.

Murry does nothing that's killer. Not defense, not ball handling, not offense. He is taller, but he should be substituted in for longer periods of time. For defensive purposes, he should be in at the end of the game.

SupremeCommander wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Exactly. If you are going to resign Melo for $30mik you need to rely on young guys with upside like Murray but the Knicks rather rely on older vet minimum seasoned and NBDL talent. Woodson's offense sucks. He wants to rely on veterans. Problem is you need smart wavy veterans like Kidd. Problem is you can't rely on those guys for 82 games. Something's got to change or we are going to suck or be mediocre for another decade plus. We need a Thibs type who will get the most out of all 15 roster spots. I can only imagine what guys like Thibs & Vogel would do with guys like Murray, Tyler and Shump. They would make sure those guys are ready to step in and contribute and not keep using injuries as an excuse. The more players Woodson has at his disposal the more clueless he looks. They are not practicing the right way. His plans change on a game to game basis. It is really path if to watch. But funny at the same time

agree with the bold. The key to last year's magic was Kidd had the resume to demand that everyone make the extra pass. This team doesn't do that any more and a lot of that is on Woodson. I'd also like to blame the front office. I was pleased with Melo and JR's production - wtf?!?!?! at the same time?!?!?! - but the overall roster is awful

Not only did Kidd have the resume to demand the extra pass, he lived it by making that pass himself. When the Knicks are spread across the key, and snap the pass around, someone gets an open look. This of course stops any penetration and limits the fouls that we get, but it is some kind of movement. We sorely need a PG with some size and finesse. A mid range game wouldn't hurt either.

Vmart wrote:I don't think Dolan wants change. This new salary structure has him ****ting bricks. He doesn't want to spend money anymore. Hell they wanted Bynum and they backed off for $1 million. The Knicks never use to back off, Dolan has become more and more fiscally responsible. I don't know if that is good or bad because he had the open wallet it didn't work. Now that Dolan has basically close the wallet it seems like they are not trying to win. He backed out of the Lowery trade also.

I do agree that our two best guards are Beno and Murry. I'm not a big fan of Prigioni and I can't stand Felton. Prigioni if he were younger he would probably be killing it though.

Would adding $1mil cost like 3 because of taxes?

If you bring him in, don't we play him ahead of Tyler?

Then, do other posters whine that we are not playing the yoot?

Murry: So basically most feel that our coaches don't see what fans see? Murry is the better choice?

1. Knicks asked Priggs back and with that a promise of minutes.
2. Felton is a better player than Murry now. THat might change, but this is now.
3. Is lowrey this good in a non-contract year? When do we stop trading our picks?

gunsnewing wrote:Exactly. If you are going to resign Melo for $30mil you need to rely on young guys with upside like Murray but the Knicks rather rely on older vet minimum seasoned and NBDL talent. Woodson's offense sucks. He wants to rely on veterans. Problem is you need smart wavy veterans like Kidd. Problem is you can't rely on those guys for 82 games. Something's got to change or we are going to suck or be mediocre for another decade plus. We need a Thibs type who will get the most out of all 15 roster spots. I can only imagine what guys like Thibs & Vogel would do with guys like Murray, Tyler and Shump. They would make sure those guys are ready to step in and contribute and not keep using injuries as an excuse. The more players Woodson has at his disposal the more clueless he looks. They are not practicing the right way. His plans change on a game to game basis. It is really pathetic to watch. But funny at the same time

GUNS, woodson has made a lot of mistakes, and he is not the greatest coach,. but thibs, phil jackson, and vogel would have murry, and tyler where they belong.. on the bench.. or in the NBDL... woodson plays the vets almost to a fault, but truth be told, guys like murry and tyler have played and they are just not that good.... if anything beno should be playing more...

you are right, something has to give and if you think guys like murry and tyler should be playing then that is fine, but at that point we should be dumping vets, and looking to rebuild not to figure out the melo factor with tyler, or the melo factor with murry... we should be looking to see if those guys have any real value... Do you honestly want murry as your starting PG next year, along with tyler in the frontcourt? really? regardless of who is on the team guns...

tkf wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Exactly. If you are going to resign Melo for $30mil you need to rely on young guys with upside like Murray but the Knicks rather rely on older vet minimum seasoned and NBDL talent. Woodson's offense sucks. He wants to rely on veterans. Problem is you need smart wavy veterans like Kidd. Problem is you can't rely on those guys for 82 games. Something's got to change or we are going to suck or be mediocre for another decade plus. We need a Thibs type who will get the most out of all 15 roster spots. I can only imagine what guys like Thibs & Vogel would do with guys like Murray, Tyler and Shump. They would make sure those guys are ready to step in and contribute and not keep using injuries as an excuse. The more players Woodson has at his disposal the more clueless he looks. They are not practicing the right way. His plans change on a game to game basis. It is really pathetic to watch. But funny at the same time

GUNS, woodson has made a lot of mistakes, and he is not the greatest coach,. but thibs, phil jackson, and vogel would have murry, and tyler where they belong.. on the bench.. or in the NBDL... woodson plays the vets almost to a fault, but truth be told, guys like murry and tyler have played and they are just not that good.... if anything beno should be playing more...

you are right, something has to give and if you think guys like murry and tyler should be playing then that is fine, but at that point we should be dumping vets, and looking to rebuild not to figure out the melo factor with tyler, or the melo factor with murry... we should be looking to see if those guys have any real value... Do you honestly want murry as your starting PG next year, along with tyler in the frontcourt? really? regardless of who is on the team guns...

I see these guys as nice players to fill out the rotation with if they continue to improve. We need to develop guys like this if we are going to resign Melo and look to add other high salary guys. But i agree they aren't the answer to start on a Melo-led team. We need some more established guys in the lineup and guys like this can develop as decent role players.

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Exactly. If you are going to resign Melo for $30mil you need to rely on young guys with upside like Murray but the Knicks rather rely on older vet minimum seasoned and NBDL talent. Woodson's offense sucks. He wants to rely on veterans. Problem is you need smart wavy veterans like Kidd. Problem is you can't rely on those guys for 82 games. Something's got to change or we are going to suck or be mediocre for another decade plus. We need a Thibs type who will get the most out of all 15 roster spots. I can only imagine what guys like Thibs & Vogel would do with guys like Murray, Tyler and Shump. They would make sure those guys are ready to step in and contribute and not keep using injuries as an excuse. The more players Woodson has at his disposal the more clueless he looks. They are not practicing the right way. His plans change on a game to game basis. It is really pathetic to watch. But funny at the same time

GUNS, woodson has made a lot of mistakes, and he is not the greatest coach,. but thibs, phil jackson, and vogel would have murry, and tyler where they belong.. on the bench.. or in the NBDL... woodson plays the vets almost to a fault, but truth be told, guys like murry and tyler have played and they are just not that good.... if anything beno should be playing more...

you are right, something has to give and if you think guys like murry and tyler should be playing then that is fine, but at that point we should be dumping vets, and looking to rebuild not to figure out the melo factor with tyler, or the melo factor with murry... we should be looking to see if those guys have any real value... Do you honestly want murry as your starting PG next year, along with tyler in the frontcourt? really? regardless of who is on the team guns...

I see these guys as nice players to fill out the rotation with if they continue to improve. We need to develop guys like this if we are going to resign Melo and look to add other high salary guys. But i agree they aren't the answer to start on a Melo-led team. We need some more established guys in the lineup and guys like this can develop as decent role players.

YEA, I just don't think the notion that what we have now is a formula to build with going forward while dumping 30 mil in carmelos lap is accurate..

we are not sitting on an evan turner or a trey burke... I have seen enough of murry and tyler to say, those guys play doesn't scream " I should be playing more minutes" on a team trying to win now.....

And this build around carmelo with youth isn't going to work either.. especially since most feel you need solid vets like kidd on the team.. those guys need to be the majority on the team.. now not at the age of 38-40, but younger vets, who have a voice... carmelo will soon be on the other side of 30.. you either build to win now.. which we have tried and failed.. or you blow this up and start playing the young guys.. guys like murry and tyler, but not to see if they can "run"(lol) with melo.. but to see if these guys actually have Value.....