Silverfuel wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Setting history straight was let some know tha Ewing was not as pure as he might have been remembered. I love the guy and his warrior approach was admired by me. I thought he gave everything he had on the court.

That is his legend, but like most athletes they are egocentric business people too and ewing at age 33 was on the decline.

No doubt we should have held on to Riley. I prefer he would have stuck. But you can't transpose his miami success and say difinitively it would have translated. Maybe we win 4 titles with him? Maybe none.

But, we know EWing at age 33 was going for a new and HUGE contract and Don Nelson was ahead of his time. He wanted Ewing gone. Look how it all unfolded, Three years later we go to the finals with a team that was running (without Ewing) and that was despite JVG who was not that kind of coach. I loved JVG and thought he did a great job. Maybe Nelson wins, maybe he does not but that was the direction the team was heading.

It made good business to keep Ewing and dump Nelson. Sure Don never wins his title. SAS got on the international thing early and it paid off big. Maybe we get Dirk instead? Maybe Shaq comes here?

Im only discussing the bonafide events that was in place, not conceptual. Riles left. He don't leave there is no Nelson and we don't have this discussion.

As far as "discrediting" riles, lets be real, Showtime was alreadyin place and they were already champs by the time he took over. He did a great job but its not like he was there and developed them.

I thought he did a better job "coaching" in NY with the players he had. "Stubburn" is used to label MDA and Riles was all that with Starks. He road the horse he came into town and stood by him. Bottom line is Knicks did not win. I thought he had that team playing at a high level which was based on its raw talent and emotionality. It was also its achiles heal.

IN Miami he basically could not get passed the KNicks and JVG, who like I said did a great job. Only the "fight Series" were they able to get buy knicks. I thought he burned those teams out and they should have gone further. Still, he did a great job.

Only until he got Shaq an wade together did he win, and that was after SVG was fired. He coached them half a season thru the playoffs.

As an Exec He would have been great in NY. I also think A nelson Era could have been special if things fell into place.

Lets not get too personal here, I backed my stuff up with a good article that is also an opinion piece. Im not taking a dump on the ewing era. My point is it should have ended sooner.

The next year we did get to the ECF's do you remember how awful Ewing was?

would history have been different if we traded ewing or let him walk? Of course.
Would it have been better? Might have accelerated where we were going.

If Nelson wins in NY we are singing a different tune about him. Maybe JVG goes to Miami to be with Riles?
Maybe he drinks the Nelson coolaid and becomes coach while Don and Donnie scout the Euros and prolong our dynasty?

Nice to think that but Riles left, Nelson was booted because Ewing was upset and had leverage. Whle Checketts was in charge he still answered to an owner. Eventually the owner got ride of Checketts not to long after. The new GM Grunfeld built a running team and JVG was on the way out until he unlikely took an 8th seed to the finals and got an automatic 2 extension (was in his contract if he did) and Grunfeld had to go.

Now you got Layden who had to deal with the Ewing mess.

Dallas underachieved for a long time and might have been the big mistake to let Nash go, but remember you had a very proactive Owner who was very involved and thought Nash was a bad long term investment because of his back. Nash was behind Kidd in PHX and Dallas did good with him coached by nelson.

The process eventually worked as DOnnie Nelson as GM contructed a team that eventually succeeded.

We had Miami beat in 97 if not for PJ Brown. Ewing averaged 23 & 10 that year as a 32yr old. We went toe to toe with Jordan and the Bulls that year. 2-2. Miami was swept by Chicago if I remember correctly

Youforgot a lot of important details over the years. It seems you are lumping the hobbled post Andrew Lang 34yr old 99 Ewing with the Don 30yr old Don Nelson Ewing

Also that 99 Ewing outplayed a much younger Alonzo Mourning

Yes exactly. The agenda is obvious here. Two days ago he was saying we should tank until we get lucky in the draft. Today he posts an article about how awesome Don Nelson was if he had traded for Shaq. There is no consistency. I don't know why I bother. I will stop now though. Another joke thread.

Ewing played in 11 of the 20 playoff games that year. His wrist and knees were problematic.

Two days ago I never said we should tank. We don't do that around here. We are not set up to tank. There is a right way to tank and a wrong way. Knicks business model won't work.

PHilly is tanking the right way. They have a good rookie, they have refusal on E-Turner who is getting his chance, and Norlens on deck rehabbing, and they likley get a good pick. We can't do that.

We can go round and round all day on this, Knicks SHOULD draft a pilar stone player but it is what it is.

And so is history.

Joke thread is to play pretend. IN the mecca we stare reality in the face and deal with it.

Right, because drafting a "pilar stone player" is something that can be done by following a formula. It's easy right?

No, its not easy. Never said that. Thats my point, it needs to be a formula and my take is one player alone is not the key as what its being done in Philly. In Cleveland its not working. THis was there year to move up. Its why they got Deng who can provide leadership.

Indy did it? GS is a very good hybrid example of draft, FA, and trades....takes time and patience and a business model.

A plan.

If you "tank" your best to do so with a youthful roster in place with a coach to develop them. Boston is early in its process as I philly. Washington tried and failed because they did not blend in any leadership despite obvious talent.

Post Andrew Lang Ewing maybe but that Ewing did not have much value. Same with Shaq towards the tail end. Shaq was able to team up with Wade when he still had a lot left in the tank. Ewing never had that luxury with the Knicks. Knicks tried with H20, LJ but PJ Brown F'd everything up and even then you had to get passed Jordan.

A youthier more athletic knick team would not have gotten past the. 1st rd if they even made the playoffs.

I can see trading Melo if he is going to walk for nothing because he is in his prime and has value. You don't replace hall of fame centers who spent their careers carrying their teams deep in the playoffs every year

Also you have to think long and hard if you want to continue to play Melo at PF. He will get eaten up defensively in the plAyoffs every year by bigger teams like Indiana

gunsnewing wrote:Was Pete Newell getting Ewing last Jordan?

Did Pete Newell get Hakeem and Shaq past Jordan? No

Knicks are 94 champions if not for Starks

shaq and hakeem were better, more accomplished centers than ewing-- that is a fact.

so far as 1994 that is open to debate but there can be no doubt that if ewing actually worked to improve his footwork in the low post that he would have been a better center than he was and stark's shooting would have not have been an issue. as it was ewing preferred the baseline fadeaway that took him away from rebounding. it was a thing of beauty but it turned him into a 7-foot jumpshooting small forward and reduced if not removed an element of dominance that the truly great players possess. that idiosyncrasy held him and his teams back.

don nelson had the right idea.

Am I making sense?

gunsnewing wrote:Anyone who wanted to trade a pre Andrew land Ewing was on drugs back then. You don't trade a hall of fame top 5 alltime center for picks and athletism

Post Andrew Lang Ewing maybe but that Ewing did not have much value. Same with Shaq towards the tail end. Shaq was able to team up with Wade when he still had a lot left in the tank. Ewing never had that luxury with the Knicks. Knicks tried with H20, LJ but PJ Brown F'd everything up and even then you had to get passed Jordan.

A youthier more athletic knick team would not have gotten past the. 1st rd if they even made the playoffs.

I can see trading Melo if he is going to walk for nothing because he is in his prime and has value. You don't replace hall of fame centers who spent their careers carrying their teams deep in the playoffs every year

Also you have to think long and hard if you want to continue to play Melo at PF. He will get eaten up defensively in the plAyoffs every year by bigger teams like Indiana

That is why 1996 is the cross roads. Do you resign to a max deal a 33 to be 34 year old Center with creaky knees because he is a legend or do you want to win? Does the warrior understand his diminished ability and willing to take a lessor than alpha dog role for the sake of winning or perpetuate his status?

Its all hindsight and admittingly pre-Wrist break Ewing was awesome beyond what was expected. Then it went south fast.

Top 5? Not Top 10!

Russell,
Wilt,
Kareem,
Shaq,
Hakeem,
Miken,
Malone,
Robinson,
Timmy,
Reed
Walton
Unseld
Cowens
Ewing

Ok, except for Miken who predated the MVP all the above have two things Ewing does not:

1. An MVP award
2. A championship ring.

Top six are not open to arguement. Sure Ewing would be a god in the Miken era but today Ewing might not have been able to run with todays centers as he got to age 33.

I really think some of these others played on better teams and thus exceeded Ewing because of it. Or did Ewings lack of passing, rebounding, and declinging shot block and defense stunt his teams from going further??? oh my!!!!

Malone got The MVP, a chip and longevity. Robinson got his chips and an MVP. He needed Timmay. But got his MVP without him. Timmy got his without the Admiral.

Reed was rookie of the year, MVP and 2 time finals MVP.

Unseld was MVP and rookie of the year at one time. His Chip came at a differnt era.

Dave Cowens also a MVP and a Ring.

Now, I do think Ewing was a better player than Cowens and unseld but how and deservingly is an HOF and worthy of every accolade but historically the pristige position in the league for decades was the "big guy" and if you say top centers of all time then by what measure? The most dominant player of the leauge in a particular year and a championship.

Ewing I think goes up 5 spots if he had one or the other. But these guys HAVE both. He has none.

You guys are off your rockers

You can argue never winning it all with Melo because of the jokes in his game and physical shortcomings but to agree with Don Nelson is just dumb and a classic case of Knicks fans nitpicking their star players. A ball of fame center averaging 23 & 10 and you want to trade him.

Let's trade him for a younger tweener who can't guard 3s or 4s and see how far we go. Give me a break

jrodmc wrote:Let's **** on Ewing with.... Don Nelson?
The man who brought you the Point Forward Anthony Mason as your featured offensive threat when you still have a HOF in the lineup? A shorter version of Oak with less hops and a middle school girls jumper?
Don Nelson was and is a gimmick coach who manages to get mentioned with the likes of Red Auerbach and Lenny Wilkens only because he's managed not to die young.
By golly, you could be singing the same praises of Woodson 15 years from now, after he gets fired by Melo.

Ewing couldn't run with Hibbert? What is Roy suddenly a track star? Ewing couldn't hang with the likes of Bropez? Ewing would sweat Noah? The rest of today's centers are IR fodder.

Stick to ABA memories, Nalod. It's historical without being offensive.

The article is not about Nelsons brilliance, its about Ewing and the when the crossroads of change we took a path that MIGHT have not been correct.

To cut the heart and sole of the team via trade or let him walk would only be done by a visonary franchise. We don't trade players for picks or youtier.

Young Ewing was an athletic marvel who could run with anyone. 11 years later he had creaky knees.

There was a choice. It was what hit was.

The season has been turbulent, injury marred, but Nelson said he likes the core talent, especially the Latvian Andris Biedrins, whom he recently called the best center he has coached since Bob Lanier, way back in Milwaukee.

Was he serious or looking to settle an old score? Better than Ewing?

Obviously not the Ewing in his prime, Nelson said, just the Ewing that he coached, the Ewing who resisted change and reality, who made the Knicks choose.

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:Nelson ever made it to the finals?..Did Van Gundy made it to the finals?

Van gundy did a hell of a job, can't take that away.

The notion that Ewing is a warrior saint is not accurate.

Maybe if were proactive in change sooner we could have made other moves.

Donnie Nelson was the architect of the Dallas team that did win with MVP dirk. Just saying that had we let ewing walk, or traded him for shaq imagine the possibilities?

Instead we resigned Ewing past his prime. The rest we know.

Thinking we could get Shaq was pure fantasy...Donnie and Ewing had issues..Donnie thought Ewing should play something other than center..Can't side with Donnie on that...Then he hooked up his son in Dallas, not sure if he was qualified..We should have let Ewing's contract expire later or rode with Ernie Grunfeld vision over Van Gundy...Ernie wanted to go younger with Camby and Spree...No great player want to concede their leading role...Blame Van Gundy too...

"no great player want to concede their leading role" yet the smart ones do whether they want to or not-- again for the sake of their teams. it's a team game. ewing's ego and pride kept wisdom and discretion at bay. that was a turnoff for a lot of knicks fans... as well it should be.

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:Nelson ever made it to the finals?..Did Van Gundy made it to the finals?

Van gundy did a hell of a job, can't take that away.

The notion that Ewing is a warrior saint is not accurate.

Maybe if were proactive in change sooner we could have made other moves.

Donnie Nelson was the architect of the Dallas team that did win with MVP dirk. Just saying that had we let ewing walk, or traded him for shaq imagine the possibilities?

Instead we resigned Ewing past his prime. The rest we know.

Thinking we could get Shaq was pure fantasy...Donnie and Ewing had issues..Donnie thought Ewing should play something other than center..Can't side with Donnie on that...Then he hooked up his son in Dallas, not sure if he was qualified..We should have let Ewing's contract expire later or rode with Ernie Grunfeld vision over Van Gundy...Ernie wanted to go younger with Camby and Spree...No great player want to concede their leading role...Blame Van Gundy too...

"no great player want to concede their leading role" yet the smart ones do whether they want to or not-- again for the sake of their teams. it's a team game. ewing's ego and pride kept wisdom and discretion at bay. that was a turnoff for a lot of knicks fans... as well it should be.

Like David Robinson did with Tim Duncan...Who was Tim Duncan in Ewing's case??