IronWillGiroud wrote:It's not that they see Melo as a problem in itself,

it's that they don't see him as a solution.

And when you blow the kitty up in forcing a trade, when you're payed fat max cash, when you present yourself as one thing but are completely unaware that you are entirely a different thing,

then you're gonna get the flack.

yea, it really is that simple.

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:Our starting backcourt vs. the Nets:
Prigo 0-3 FGs 2 asists 3 TOs
Felton 2-11 FGs
Shump 2-8 FGs

But hey.. thats why you have your bench!
JR 4-12

Hey... Good young Timmy kicked in 3-5 shots

so fish would it be fair to go to the game log vs the clippers where he shot 4-23?

you see carmelo as not being the problem.. ok.. well I see him as not being the solution or part of it.. and for me, that is a PROBLEM...

Your right dude. When your starting forward gets 26ppg, 9rebs, 3assits and shoots over 45% and is just about the only player on the roster with a + in the +/- category I could see why YOU would see him as not part of the solution. But I mentioned in the topic you are neither a hoops guy or have much self respect

Move along

IronWillGiroud wrote:It's not that they see Melo as a problem in itself,

it's that they don't see him as a solution.

And when you blow the kitty up in forcing a trade, when you're payed fat max cash, when you present yourself as one thing but are completely unaware that you are entirely a different thing,

then you're gonna get the flack.

who is this masked man?

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

IronWillGiroud wrote:guys that do things that melo does (such as forcing us to blow the kitty in the denver trade), guys like this are supposed to be solutions.

Melo is not a solution, he only imagines he is when he sleeps at night,

and that's why he's the problem, that's it, man.

was hea solution last year? Seemed like a pretty good solution to me then.

Jettison Melo and what problem does that solve? You still have the same crappy roster, same crappier front office and same crappy coach. Except now you have nobody on the roster than can win NBA games. Didnt we go through 10+ years of that?

no he wasn't fish, because he is still here and we suck... you are making an argument for jason kidd, novak, Kurt thomas and rasheed.. they were , moreso kid was crucial to our 54 wins and fast start...

they are gone and carmelo is still here and we are horrible...

Except now you have nobody on the roster than can win NBA games. Didnt we go through 10+ years of that?

why are you being so shortsighted? you are acting like it is carmelo or knick basketball is done.. and that is so odd considering that we are one of the worst teams in the league with him.. Pleas make some sense of what you are saying fish... if you have no faith in dolan fine.. I don't, but keeping carmelo isn't going to change how inept dolan is..

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:and as soon as I posted it I went here to see just who is playing the worst:
http://www.82games.com/1314/1314NYK.HTM

Its hard to blame Woody on Melo's minutes when the only guys who are + are Melo, KMart and Shump. I guess Shump does enough other things on the floor. KMart has played well and Melo is Melo. Yikes.

what really scary is how bad they are with him off the court.

fish, we are bad with him on the court as well.. degrees of badness doesn't matter right now with a bloated payroll... bad is bad... it needs to be flushed and restarted..

according to the stats we arent. The numbers dont lie. When Melo is on the court the Knicks are winning team. So once again your wrong. Plain and simple. Unless you think 82games stuffs the stats because they are melo lovers too.

fish he is playing more minutes than anyone in the NBA according to the posters here.. so why don't we have a winning record.. are you telling me, we are losing games when he is on the bench 4-5 minutes per game?

explain that fish.. he plays 40 mpg.. there are 48mpg.. so we are 15-26 because of the 8 minutes he is on the bench? I am wrong? LOl.. about what.. please make these numbers make sense to me fish....

the +/- stat on a team you says has bad players is not something to brag about fish... ok so the knicks are better with him on the floor, as they are with shumpert and kenyon... so let me ask you this... what does this have to do with them being a bad team.. as I said, we are talking degrees of badness...

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

IronWillGiroud wrote:guys that do things that melo does (such as forcing us to blow the kitty in the denver trade), guys like this are supposed to be solutions.

Melo is not a solution, he only imagines he is when he sleeps at night,

and that's why he's the problem, that's it, man.

was hea solution last year? Seemed like a pretty good solution to me then.

Jettison Melo and what problem does that solve? You still have the same crappy roster, same crappier front office and same crappy coach. Except now you have nobody on the roster than can win NBA games. Didnt we go through 10+ years of that?

no he wasn't fish, because he is still here and we suck... you are making an argument for jason kidd, novak, Kurt thomas and rasheed.. they were , moreso kid was crucial to our 54 wins and fast start...

they are gone and carmelo is still here and we are horrible...

Except now you have nobody on the roster than can win NBA games. Didnt we go through 10+ years of that?

why are you being so shortsighted? you are acting like it is carmelo or knick basketball is done.. and that is so odd considering that we are one of the worst teams in the league with him.. Pleas make some sense of what you are saying fish... if you have no faith in dolan fine.. I don't, but keeping carmelo isn't going to change how inept dolan is..

you are acting like it is carmelo or knick basketball is done.. that is not me acting. That is proof ove the last 15 years. When Melo is here we win and go to the playoffs. When he's not we win 20-30 games. Every team Melo has ever played on has won. Now in year 12 the team stinks so he's the problem. Oh how you must have suffered last year! I can imagine your joy when Indy beat us.

ok fish, because in 5 years or less that ends.. maybe even this year, we might not make the playoffs.. then what fish..

So let me ask this question.. do you look at this as an opportunity to sign melo to a 5 year deal and be average, or next year to tank, organically, and get a top pick.. what do you see as an opportunity fish? now I am not for purposely tanking, but the chances are good that we would be bad, that is ok, evaluate the young guys, bring in some young talent.. as long as there isn't dysfunction...

fish you know what we also have 15 years of...first round exits from carmelo, and 15 years of overpaying so called supestars, from zach, to amare to carmelo... no more so called saviors... that is no longer good fish...

Since this thread is focused on Melo I will only talk about on him. The problem with most fans are they are quick to forget the past. They see Melo playing his heart out now and think to themselves I feel sorry for this man. What they forget is that Melo played a part in the situation we are currently facing. Let's start with the last year he had in Denver. Melo had 3 choices on how to handle that situation.

Option 1: Play out the year and sign with us as a free agent.
Result: Knick get their man and only have to give up a few players like Chandler to get under the cap.

Option 2: tell Denver you will not return next year and leak to the media that you will only resign with the Knicks.
Result: Melo gives Knicks great chance to get him cheaper than normal in a trade due to the leverage that he will only sign with us.

Option 3: Be cryptic and vague hinting that you will not resign with Denver and that you are not even going to consider heading to free agency. Leave the options open to resigning with more than 1 team even though the Knicks were his first choice.
Result: Denver were able to use the Nets as leverage to rob the Knicks blind.

Those assets that we had to give up to get Melo could have been used to get CP3 when he was a free agent. If we failed to get CP3 it would have given us the ability to get Hardon when OKC wanted to trade him.

A small way he added to our current situation is with his ego. After dogging it for a few months to get MDA fired the Knicks were hopeless with no PG much like we are now. We got lucky and Linsanity shook up MSG. During Linsanity Melo did an interview in which he dismissed the fans fears that when he came back the team would begin to lose again. To paraphrase he basically said i don't have to fit Lin and the current style they have to fit me. Do you think anyone of the current pacers would ever say that if in the same exact position Melo was in? Not wanting to take a step back from the limelight was partly to blame for Lin not coming back. No matter what you say if Melo wanted Lin on the team he would be on the team.

Before this season the first thing Melo said is he would like to test free agency. What good can possibly come from that statement? Why would he not just keep that to himself?

Until mid to late December Melo was going ISO and chuck crazy. The Knicks ran the most ISO's of every team and was dead last in ISO plays that ended in a score. People see him playing amazingly since 2014 and forget the bad stuff he did during this season in 2013. I love the way he is playing now but to say there is no way he was part of the problem is simply having selective amnesia. You just refuse to remember some of the things he has done in the past.

Nalod wrote:
League Diluted:

Same dilution for all teams. Not Just Knicks.

Blame game:

Do it after a bad loss. Tell us how you really feel.

Backcourt: It is a disaster!!!!! Felton lost weight, is breaking down, and having an awful season compared to last year. JR smith is a lot of things all which are performance inconsistancy. Priggy is a nice guy and it all came together for him as a 58 year old rookie. This year he looks like a 59 year old sophmore. Shump: Jordan Lite. Very lite. Regression? Too much pressure? What ever, its on teh court and its not pretty. Looks like Toney Douglas these days. NO confidence and no shot. Beno: He came to play. He is a nice back up. Dude wants to play or can make bigger money abroad.

Front court: Metta? KMart? LupusTyson? Tyler the Savior? We thin, real thin. Stat was improving.

Melo: Bonafide all star and this is not on him.

5 game win streak was coincidental to some pretty good games with Stat? He was a role player but it adds up.

What if melo does not opt out? Say he stays and asks for extention? We still phuched?

you're wrong.

while it is diluted for all, some teams manage the dilution better than others, and in so doing they tend to form contenders. this is where having ownership and management on the same page fits in. when it rains some people get wet and others bring an umbrella.

since i believe anthony co-opted the situation so that he ended up with more money than he is actually worth and also ended up with less talent than he would have otherwise then yes he carries the burden of blame. in other words he should have waited to become a free agent. meanwhile if he gets credit for winning (and what has won anyway?) then he should take responsibility for losing. melofans don't understand that, never have never will.

so melo is an allstar. BFD

if melo is here for anything over 14 million we are doomed. fans will be heading for the proverbial exits.

dk7th wrote:

Nalod wrote:
League Diluted:

Same dilution for all teams. Not Just Knicks.

Blame game:

Do it after a bad loss. Tell us how you really feel.

Backcourt: It is a disaster!!!!! Felton lost weight, is breaking down, and having an awful season compared to last year. JR smith is a lot of things all which are performance inconsistancy. Priggy is a nice guy and it all came together for him as a 58 year old rookie. This year he looks like a 59 year old sophmore. Shump: Jordan Lite. Very lite. Regression? Too much pressure? What ever, its on teh court and its not pretty. Looks like Toney Douglas these days. NO confidence and no shot. Beno: He came to play. He is a nice back up. Dude wants to play or can make bigger money abroad.

Front court: Metta? KMart? LupusTyson? Tyler the Savior? We thin, real thin. Stat was improving.

Melo: Bonafide all star and this is not on him.

5 game win streak was coincidental to some pretty good games with Stat? He was a role player but it adds up.

What if melo does not opt out? Say he stays and asks for extention? We still phuched?

you're wrong.

while it is diluted for all, some teams manage the dilution better than others, and in so doing they tend to form contenders. this is where having ownership and management on the same page fits in. when it rains some people get wet and others bring an umbrella.

since i believe anthony co-opted the situation so that he ended up with more money than he is actually worth and also ended up with less talent than he would have otherwise then yes he carries the burden of blame. in other words he should have waited to become a free agent. meanwhile if he gets credit for winning (and what has won anyway?) then he should take responsibility for losing. melofans don't understand that, never have never will.

so melo is an allstar. BFD

if melo is here for anything over 14 million we are doomed. fans will be heading for the proverbial exits.

some teams manage the dilution better than others, and in so doing they tend to form contenders. this is where having ownership and management on the same page fits in. when it rains some people get wet and others bring an umbrella.

I agree with that and sort of said the same thing. I also think knicks did an awful job to build around melo and think by overpaying they created the mess. Im sure Grunfeld, Gabriel and Winkydink all Dolan "Yes Men" thought they could do better. They didn't.

Melo is not the problem but his circomstance is.

Clean, IM not sure your timeline is correct on somehtings regarding Cp3. Lets not forget the impending CBA and lockout with Melo needing some knee surgery as well. Opting out into that mess would be bad business, which is why he did what he did. He also had leverage because the next year he could have walked away and Denver gets nothing. He played ball with Denver and both got what they wanted.

Nets were players and if Knicks don't step up Nets get him. Dolan loses his mind at this point.

I dont't Melo hits free agency that summer if Nuggs don't play along. Melo does not opt out into free agency with no CBA and he was correct btw, if he waits his contract is limited. I don't hate on him for this, I hate the buyer for overpaying. ON the other hand Melo has been a quality player and healthy so its not like he has not been professional. He is not a Lebron or a Durant type player. He is not a leader of men or type to make those around him better. This is what he was before so why think differently.

Nobody puts a gun to Knicks head and makes them trade for him, they choose to and placed a misconcieved value. I'd be curious to see what nets were willing to send.

Nalod thinks Joe Johnsons got an awful contract but true cost to nets was what the trade assets were. IN that light, he was a better "value".

I don't love woody, and don't love Melo but if blame must go on somebody it goes on the lack of consideration for all other parts of this team. The panic that was Stat's signing to deleting the cupboard for years to get melo. The Bargnani trade is a panic attempt to keep talent around him. Typical Dolan-esque type move. We did this type of crap (under checketts) to keep Ewing here and perhaps that itself kept the team from winning a chip.

Knicks run on fear and have for years.

Clean wrote:The question proposed by the thread title is loaded. No one is going to see Melo as THE problem. No one player or coach the problem. I am probably one of the biggest Woody haters here and I don't think he is the problem. They are all PART of the problem.

Since this thread is focused on Melo I will only talk about on him. The problem with most fans are they are quick to forget the past. They see Melo playing his heart out now and think to themselves I feel sorry for this man. What they forget is that Melo played a part in the situation we are currently facing. Let's start with the last year he had in Denver. Melo had 3 choices on how to handle that situation.

Option 1: Play out the year and sign with us as a free agent.
Result: Knick get their man and only have to give up a few players like Chandler to get under the cap.

Option 2: tell Denver you will not return next year and leak to the media that you will only resign with the Knicks.
Result: Melo gives Knicks great chance to get him cheaper than normal in a trade due to the leverage that he will only sign with us.

Option 3: Be cryptic and vague hinting that you will not resign with Denver and that you are not even going to consider heading to free agency. Leave the options open to resigning with more than 1 team even though the Knicks were his first choice.
Result: Denver were able to use the Nets as leverage to rob the Knicks blind.

Those assets that we had to give up to get Melo could have been used to get CP3 when he was a free agent. If we failed to get CP3 it would have given us the ability to get Hardon when OKC wanted to trade him.

A small way he added to our current situation is with his ego. After dogging it for a few months to get MDA fired the Knicks were hopeless with no PG much like we are now. We got lucky and Linsanity shook up MSG. During Linsanity Melo did an interview in which he dismissed the fans fears that when he came back the team would begin to lose again. To paraphrase he basically said i don't have to fit Lin and the current style they have to fit me. Do you think anyone of the current pacers would ever say that if in the same exact position Melo was in? Not wanting to take a step back from the limelight was partly to blame for Lin not coming back. No matter what you say if Melo wanted Lin on the team he would be on the team.

Before this season the first thing Melo said is he would like to test free agency. What good can possibly come from that statement? Why would he not just keep that to himself?

Until mid to late December Melo was going ISO and chuck crazy. The Knicks ran the most ISO's of every team and was dead last in ISO plays that ended in a score. People see him playing amazingly since 2014 and forget the bad stuff he did during this season in 2013. I love the way he is playing now but to say there is no way he was part of the problem is simply having selective amnesia. You just refuse to remember some of the things he has done in the past.

great posts, with good details, and FAIR + honest assessment

Clean wrote:The question proposed by the thread title is loaded. No one is going to see Melo as THE problem. No one player or coach the problem. I am probably one of the biggest Woody haters here and I don't think he is the problem. They are all PART of the problem.

Since this thread is focused on Melo I will only talk about on him. The problem with most fans are they are quick to forget the past. They see Melo playing his heart out now and think to themselves I feel sorry for this man. What they forget is that Melo played a part in the situation we are currently facing. Let's start with the last year he had in Denver. Melo had 3 choices on how to handle that situation.

Option 1: Play out the year and sign with us as a free agent.
Result: Knick get their man and only have to give up a few players like Chandler to get under the cap.

Option 2: tell Denver you will not return next year and leak to the media that you will only resign with the Knicks.
Result: Melo gives Knicks great chance to get him cheaper than normal in a trade due to the leverage that he will only sign with us.

Option 3: Be cryptic and vague hinting that you will not resign with Denver and that you are not even going to consider heading to free agency. Leave the options open to resigning with more than 1 team even though the Knicks were his first choice.
Result: Denver were able to use the Nets as leverage to rob the Knicks blind.

Those assets that we had to give up to get Melo could have been used to get CP3 when he was a free agent. If we failed to get CP3 it would have given us the ability to get Hardon when OKC wanted to trade him.

A small way he added to our current situation is with his ego. After dogging it for a few months to get MDA fired the Knicks were hopeless with no PG much like we are now. We got lucky and Linsanity shook up MSG. During Linsanity Melo did an interview in which he dismissed the fans fears that when he came back the team would begin to lose again. To paraphrase he basically said i don't have to fit Lin and the current style they have to fit me. Do you think anyone of the current pacers would ever say that if in the same exact position Melo was in? Not wanting to take a step back from the limelight was partly to blame for Lin not coming back. No matter what you say if Melo wanted Lin on the team he would be on the team.

Before this season the first thing Melo said is he would like to test free agency. What good can possibly come from that statement? Why would he not just keep that to himself?

Until mid to late December Melo was going ISO and chuck crazy. The Knicks ran the most ISO's of every team and was dead last in ISO plays that ended in a score. People see him playing amazingly since 2014 and forget the bad stuff he did during this season in 2013. I love the way he is playing now but to say there is no way he was part of the problem is simply having selective amnesia. You just refuse to remember some of the things he has done in the past.

couldn't say it better myself. Captured it perfectly. He is playing very hard this year, but he lost me after the needless Denver trade, unable to coexist on floor with Amare, the quitting on MDA, and, seemingly failing to embrace the excitement of Lin (I'm not saying LIn is great, simply, Melo seemed unamused by the PG oriented offense under Lin). Super gifted scorer, rebounding great this year, great effort, but, overall seems he was unable, or unwilling to play with a coach, a PG, and a fellow superstar (however diminished Amare is). Talented scorer? absolutely, but, lots of broken glass....