H1AND1 wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Dagger wrote:But I thought Griffin was so good he doesn't need cp3! Hogwash, just as I said, this overrated dunker will be exposed now that cp3 is out. Without the best pg in the league feeding this dude he's a good player at best, not a star. I do not want this dude on the Knicks, talk about one-dimensional!

You know what's really comical to me? Blake Griffin, according to the Melo-haters, is suppose to be this multi-dimensional player that affects the game in so many different ways. Taking points out of the equation, Blake Griffin averages 11rpg, 3apg, 1spg and 0.7bpg in 37mpg. Meanwhile Melo averages 9rpg, 2.8apg, 1spg and 0.7bpg in 39.3mpg. When you ponder all of that, bare in mind that Melo gives up 20lbs, 2 inches and otherworldly leaping ability to Blake. Evidently these huge physical advantages can only create a 2rpg, 0.2apg difference between both players and evidently that is the difference between being a Renaissance Man (Griffin) and one-dimensional (Melo). You gotta love irrational hate and bias sometimes, lol.

This is just pathetic.. you resort to attacking blake Griffin to defend this bum carmelo... I don't know why? the clippers don't want anything to do with melo.. Blake is a great player.. Blake not only has better numbers but he is not even close to reaching his prime.. If you are pissed that people are bashing carmelo, bashing blake does not make it go away...

tkf: Let me preface this by saying that my opinion on Melo's basketball abilities aligns much closer to posters like you, Bonn, guns, dk7th, etc. I don't necessarily hate the guy personally but am not a fan of his game and think volume scoring is vastly overrated.

However, I would honestly be interested in your thoughts (or any other posters for that matter who is versed in advanced metrics)on the numbers NardDog posted comparing Blake to Carmelo. I am HORRIBLE at math, stats, all that stuff in general but I have faith in those basketball stats gurus like Morey, etc who do understand and evaluate this stuff and generally agree with their opinions.

Basically, if someone on here who is a stats person could address the numbers NardDog posted to compare the two id like to see a statistically based rebuttal instead of "don't bash Blake to defend Carmelo". I know for one you could say Blake is much younger and can improve. But what else? Honest question.

I also agree with GustavBahler that most fans wouldn't mind seeing Melo be traded if we got something halfway decent in return. Love him or hate him, signing one dimensional players on the wrong side of 30 to 120+ mil contracts isn't smart. Allan Houston, AHEM, cough, Allan Houston.

I like advanced stats, but one thing I will use it for is when breaking down players who I feel are comparable and close... I just don't see that here..

I actually did something this year H1.. I went to both the clippers and knicks game this year here in Atlanta. I have floor seats.. I made it my business to watch both players. carmelo and blake without the ball... It isn't close..carmelo is lazy, and only works, if you call it that on the offensive end.. and he is lazy there as well because he doesn't move without the ball.. Blake is a tireless worker, if you watch this dude, he works as hard away from the ball, setting screens, boxing out, calling picks, rebounding than anyone I have seen in the league.. add on top of that he is not only a very good passer, but a willing one.... Blake is far from one dimensional... he is the kind of guy you insert in your lineup and his work ethic will be nothing less than infectuous... I am not looking for a guy like blake or any one player to "carry" a team.. that is just silly.. I want strong building blocks... I think blake is a very good BASKETBALL PLAYER... I think carmelo is a GOOD STREAK SCORER.... he is not a bum per say, but guys like him have a place and value that IMO are a lot less than he think and what we paid....

TeamBall wrote:

Dagger wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Dagger wrote:But I thought Griffin was so good he doesn't need cp3! Hogwash, just as I said, this overrated dunker will be exposed now that cp3 is out. Without the best pg in the league feeding this dude he's a good player at best, not a star. I do not want this dude on the Knicks, talk about one-dimensional!

You know what's really comical to me? Blake Griffin, according to the Melo-haters, is suppose to be this multi-dimensional player that affects the game in so many different ways. Taking points out of the equation, Blake Griffin averages 11rpg, 3apg, 1spg and 0.7bpg in 37mpg. Meanwhile Melo averages 9rpg, 2.8apg, 1spg and 0.7bpg in 39.3mpg. When you ponder all of that, bare in mind that Melo gives up 20lbs, 2 inches and otherworldly leaping ability to Blake. Evidently these huge physical advantages can only create a 2rpg, 0.2apg difference between both players and evidently that is the difference between being a Renaissance Man (Griffin) and one-dimensional (Melo). You gotta love irrational hate and bias sometimes, lol.

This is just pathetic.. you resort to attacking blake Griffin to defend this bum carmelo... I don't know why? the clippers don't want anything to do with melo.. Blake is a great player.. Blake not only has better numbers but he is not even close to reaching his prime.. If you are pissed that people are bashing carmelo, bashing blake does not make it go away...

I think its safe to say that if the right deal came along most posters here would be fine with Melo being traded. This meme you keep repeating over and over that not liking a Griffin for Melo trade is just about protecting Melo is infantile.

Exactly! Most posters have absolutely zero interest in protecting melo but he only sees the world through melo-obsessed glasses so what can you expect. I just don't think Griffin is a star, he is a good player and great dunker that has been pumped up by the media because of his highlight reel potential. He's very limited IMO, has nothing to do with defending melo.

It's quite ironic. He actually talks about Melo more than anyone on this board.

I dont want Blake here though because that's who we'd be building the team around (Dolan would use him to bring in casual/"star" obsessed fans) and I don't think he's good enough for that.

whats more ironic is you guys talk about me more than the knicks.. go figure..

actually having a guy like blake will allow other players to have a chance to flourish.. you would be surprised how the culture changes when you bring in someone with a huge work ethic and less ego.... and he doesn't have to be a star or even great player...

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Dagger wrote:But I thought Griffin was so good he doesn't need cp3! Hogwash, just as I said, this overrated dunker will be exposed now that cp3 is out. Without the best pg in the league feeding this dude he's a good player at best, not a star. I do not want this dude on the Knicks, talk about one-dimensional!

You know what's really comical to me? Blake Griffin, according to the Melo-haters, is suppose to be this multi-dimensional player that affects the game in so many different ways. Taking points out of the equation, Blake Griffin averages 11rpg, 3apg, 1spg and 0.7bpg in 37mpg. Meanwhile Melo averages 9rpg, 2.8apg, 1spg and 0.7bpg in 39.3mpg. When you ponder all of that, bare in mind that Melo gives up 20lbs, 2 inches and otherworldly leaping ability to Blake. Evidently these huge physical advantages can only create a 2rpg, 0.2apg difference between both players and evidently that is the difference between being a Renaissance Man (Griffin) and one-dimensional (Melo). You gotta love irrational hate and bias sometimes, lol.

This is just pathetic.. you resort to attacking blake Griffin to defend this bum carmelo... I don't know why? the clippers don't want anything to do with melo.. Blake is a great player.. Blake not only has better numbers but he is not even close to reaching his prime.. If you are pissed that people are bashing carmelo, bashing blake does not make it go away...

tkf: Let me preface this by saying that my opinion on Melo's basketball abilities aligns much closer to posters like you, Bonn, guns, dk7th, etc. I don't necessarily hate the guy personally but am not a fan of his game and think volume scoring is vastly overrated.

However, I would honestly be interested in your thoughts (or any other posters for that matter who is versed in advanced metrics)on the numbers NardDog posted comparing Blake to Carmelo. I am HORRIBLE at math, stats, all that stuff in general but I have faith in those basketball stats gurus like Morey, etc who do understand and evaluate this stuff and generally agree with their opinions.

Basically, if someone on here who is a stats person could address the numbers NardDog posted to compare the two id like to see a statistically based rebuttal instead of "don't bash Blake to defend Carmelo". I know for one you could say Blake is much younger and can improve. But what else? Honest question.

I also agree with GustavBahler that most fans wouldn't mind seeing Melo be traded if we got something halfway decent in return. Love him or hate him, signing one dimensional players on the wrong side of 30 to 120+ mil contracts isn't smart. Allan Houston, AHEM, cough, Allan Houston.

I like advanced stats, but one thing I will use it for is when breaking down players who I feel are comparable and close... I just don't see that here..

I actually did something this year H1.. I went to both the clippers and knicks game this year here in Atlanta. I have floor seats.. I made it my business to watch both players. carmelo and blake without the ball... It isn't close..carmelo is lazy, and only works, if you call it that on the offensive end.. and he is lazy there as well because he doesn't move without the ball.. Blake is a tireless worker, if you watch this dude, he works as hard away from the ball, setting screens, boxing out, calling picks, rebounding than anyone I have seen in the league.. add on top of that he is not only a very good passer, but a willing one.... Blake is far from one dimensional... he is the kind of guy you insert in your lineup and his work ethic will be nothing less than infectuous... I am not looking for a guy like blake or any one player to "carry" a team.. that is just silly.. I want strong building blocks... I think blake is a very good BASKETBALL PLAYER... I think carmelo is a GOOD STREAK SCORER.... he is not a bum per say, but guys like him have a place and value that IMO are a lot less than he think and what we paid....

I'll give you credit here. You have an extreme view of Melo but I don't think it's a black and white, hate-filled one like others say it is.

yea, people think I just hate the dude without any reason.. honestly I don't like him, and that is because I think he doesn't care about the team I rooted for over 30 years.. I think he along with dolan ruined our future for their own personal agendas and did so without blinking an eye.. I think carmelo is selfish, and honestly not as good of a player as he think he is... I think he is lazy and, dumb and that infects this team.. he and his motley crew of kenyon martin and JR smith.....

now does carmelo have value? yea, I mean guys like him always have.. the pistons had vinnie Johnson, the sixers had andrew toney.. the clippers have jamal crawford playing the proper role finally.... is carmelo better than the likes of jamal crawford? yes, but just a better version of guus/scorers like that.... and again there is a value in that.. just not as a max player, team leader, 30 mil a year player.. that is just not the proper place for a guy like that... until that changes, he will continue to be miscast and teams will continue to make the same mistake trying to build around this guy...

believe me, I dislike JR smith just as much, but he doesn't earn max money, and we didn't have to trade a thing for him.... but the level of dislike, is there...

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Dagger wrote:But I thought Griffin was so good he doesn't need cp3! Hogwash, just as I said, this overrated dunker will be exposed now that cp3 is out. Without the best pg in the league feeding this dude he's a good player at best, not a star. I do not want this dude on the Knicks, talk about one-dimensional!

You know what's really comical to me? Blake Griffin, according to the Melo-haters, is suppose to be this multi-dimensional player that affects the game in so many different ways. Taking points out of the equation, Blake Griffin averages 11rpg, 3apg, 1spg and 0.7bpg in 37mpg. Meanwhile Melo averages 9rpg, 2.8apg, 1spg and 0.7bpg in 39.3mpg. When you ponder all of that, bare in mind that Melo gives up 20lbs, 2 inches and otherworldly leaping ability to Blake. Evidently these huge physical advantages can only create a 2rpg, 0.2apg difference between both players and evidently that is the difference between being a Renaissance Man (Griffin) and one-dimensional (Melo). You gotta love irrational hate and bias sometimes, lol.

This is just pathetic.. you resort to attacking blake Griffin to defend this bum carmelo... I don't know why? the clippers don't want anything to do with melo.. Blake is a great player.. Blake not only has better numbers but he is not even close to reaching his prime.. If you are pissed that people are bashing carmelo, bashing blake does not make it go away...

tkf: Let me preface this by saying that my opinion on Melo's basketball abilities aligns much closer to posters like you, Bonn, guns, dk7th, etc. I don't necessarily hate the guy personally but am not a fan of his game and think volume scoring is vastly overrated.

However, I would honestly be interested in your thoughts (or any other posters for that matter who is versed in advanced metrics)on the numbers NardDog posted comparing Blake to Carmelo. I am HORRIBLE at math, stats, all that stuff in general but I have faith in those basketball stats gurus like Morey, etc who do understand and evaluate this stuff and generally agree with their opinions.

Basically, if someone on here who is a stats person could address the numbers NardDog posted to compare the two id like to see a statistically based rebuttal instead of "don't bash Blake to defend Carmelo". I know for one you could say Blake is much younger and can improve. But what else? Honest question.

I also agree with GustavBahler that most fans wouldn't mind seeing Melo be traded if we got something halfway decent in return. Love him or hate him, signing one dimensional players on the wrong side of 30 to 120+ mil contracts isn't smart. Allan Houston, AHEM, cough, Allan Houston.

I like advanced stats, but one thing I will use it for is when breaking down players who I feel are comparable and close... I just don't see that here..

I actually did something this year H1.. I went to both the clippers and knicks game this year here in Atlanta. I have floor seats.. I made it my business to watch both players. carmelo and blake without the ball... It isn't close..carmelo is lazy, and only works, if you call it that on the offensive end.. and he is lazy there as well because he doesn't move without the ball.. Blake is a tireless worker, if you watch this dude, he works as hard away from the ball, setting screens, boxing out, calling picks, rebounding than anyone I have seen in the league.. add on top of that he is not only a very good passer, but a willing one.... Blake is far from one dimensional... he is the kind of guy you insert in your lineup and his work ethic will be nothing less than infectuous... I am not looking for a guy like blake or any one player to "carry" a team.. that is just silly.. I want strong building blocks... I think blake is a very good BASKETBALL PLAYER... I think carmelo is a GOOD STREAK SCORER.... he is not a bum per say, but guys like him have a place and value that IMO are a lot less than he think and what we paid....

I'll give you credit here. You have an extreme view of Melo but I don't think it's a black and white, hate-filled one like others say it is.

No, it's just finds it's roots there..But it seems like Melo has grown on him a little too, huh...

chris paul wasnt stopping that beatdown.

NardDogNation wrote:The Clippers were down 35-70 at half and lost 92-116. It's only one game but Griffin can't carry that team, or any team.

Not very smart to jump to these types of conclusions but you are correct.

I would suggest you look at the Knicks scores earlier this year in our games against Spurs, TWolves & Celtics and understand that Melo can't carry this team either.

I would even take a lesser package Jordan/Reddick/Bullock/Collison & #1 pick instead of something built around Griffin --- I just don't want to max out Melo here.

LivingLegend wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:The Clippers were down 35-70 at half and lost 92-116. It's only one game but Griffin can't carry that team, or any team.

Not very smart to jump to these types of conclusions but you are correct.

I would suggest you look at the Knicks scores earlier this year in our games against Spurs, TWolves & Celtics and understand that Melo can't carry this team either.

I would even take a lesser package Jordan/Reddick/Bullock/Collison & #1 pick instead of something built around Griffin --- I just don't want to max out Melo here.

Let's be real though, the Knicks are nothing more than Melo, Chandler and a group of certified bums. People want to pin this debacle squarely on Melo while ignoring the fact that multiple guys have been injured for significant chunks of the season, have been shooting career lows and are poor defenders. Griffin actually has talent even without CP3, who are individually better than our guys. If Melo had those players, we'd be in the playoffs and then some because he's done more with less.

Collision> Prigioni, Felton and Beno
Redick> Shumpert
Crawford> JR
Jordan< Tyson
Jamison/Mullens=Bargnani
Dudley> Metta

yellowboy90 wrote:^^^

redick is not playing he is injured right now.

Fair but this season, he's been healthy.

dk7th wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Dagger wrote:But I thought Griffin was so good he doesn't need cp3! Hogwash, just as I said, this overrated dunker will be exposed now that cp3 is out. Without the best pg in the league feeding this dude he's a good player at best, not a star. I do not want this dude on the Knicks, talk about one-dimensional!

You know what's really comical to me? Blake Griffin, according to the Melo-haters, is suppose to be this multi-dimensional player that affects the game in so many different ways. Taking points out of the equation, Blake Griffin averages 11rpg, 3apg, 1spg and 0.7bpg in 37mpg. Meanwhile Melo averages 9rpg, 2.8apg, 1spg and 0.7bpg in 39.3mpg. When you ponder all of that, bare in mind that Melo gives up 20lbs, 2 inches and otherworldly leaping ability to Blake. Evidently these huge physical advantages can only create a 2rpg, 0.2apg difference between both players and evidently that is the difference between being a Renaissance Man (Griffin) and one-dimensional (Melo). You gotta love irrational hate and bias sometimes, lol.

This is just pathetic.. you resort to attacking blake Griffin to defend this bum carmelo... I don't know why? the clippers don't want anything to do with melo.. Blake is a great player.. Blake not only has better numbers but he is not even close to reaching his prime.. If you are pissed that people are bashing carmelo, bashing blake does not make it go away...

tkf: Let me preface this by saying that my opinion on Melo's basketball abilities aligns much closer to posters like you, Bonn, guns, dk7th, etc. I don't necessarily hate the guy personally but am not a fan of his game and think volume scoring is vastly overrated.

However, I would honestly be interested in your thoughts (or any other posters for that matter who is versed in advanced metrics)on the numbers NardDog posted comparing Blake to Carmelo. I am HORRIBLE at math, stats, all that stuff in general but I have faith in those basketball stats gurus like Morey, etc who do understand and evaluate this stuff and generally agree with their opinions.

Basically, if someone on here who is a stats person could address the numbers NardDog posted to compare the two id like to see a statistically based rebuttal instead of "don't bash Blake to defend Carmelo". I know for one you could say Blake is much younger and can improve. But what else? Honest question.

I also agree with GustavBahler that most fans wouldn't mind seeing Melo be traded if we got something halfway decent in return. Love him or hate him, signing one dimensional players on the wrong side of 30 to 120+ mil contracts isn't smart. Allan Houston, AHEM, cough, Allan Houston.

it's difficult to compare the two even with advanced stats because they occupy different parts of the floor, except when melo is playing the 4. but most of his career he played the 3. he is a tweener which in my opinion is part of melo's problem.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/griffbl01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html

that said, a case in point is looking at respective TS% for both players. remember that this stat incorporates 2-pointers, 3-pointers, and free throws into a bundle. therefore, a player like griffin is at a disadvantage because he does not shoot the 3. and a so-called versatile scorer like melo that is supposed to be so effective going to the basket, drawing fouls, and hitting 3s should be at an advantage.

but griffin even without the 3 is at an above-average 56%TS for his career and 57% this season. as a matter of fact he has been trending upwards. melo, meanwhile is a below-average at 54.5%TS for his career with a basic flatline. he is basically the same inefficient scorer he always has been. is griffin at an advantage because he gets set up by others to finish, sort of like stoudemire used to be? yes, that is a factor since he is more of a pure power forward. is he at a disadvantage because he is a poor free throw shooter? yes he needs to improve there too. but considering that melo is regarded as an elite scorer his TS% says otherwise, while griffin, for all his limitations, is still more efficient scorer, ie not a volume shooter. to see what i mean, look at how many shots melo takes to get his points compared to griffin: melo shoots an average of 20 times a game-- that's too much for someone who scores inefficiently. meanwhile griffin takes 15.5 shots to get his points. melo has averaged 1.28 points per shot attempt while blake averages 1.35 points per shot. lebron 1.37, durant 1.42. this is quite a gap.

raw assists? that's too simplistic. look at the usage (USG%) for both players and then look at the assisted baskets (AST%) when each are on the floor. first off griffin's usage is a quite reasonable one at 26.5% while melo's is astronomical: 32% for the bulk of his career. meanwhile griffin's teammates get assisted around 17% of the time when he is on the floor which means he is not a ball stopper or offensive stagnator-- the ratio of usage to assisted buckets is a healthy 1.56:1 for blake as a power forward, and an unhealthy 2.13 for melo for a tweener. really anything over 1.80:1 means offensive stagnation for anyone whose usage rate is 25 and over. i mean in a perfectly balanced offense i suppose all 5 players would have a 20% usage rate, right?... so it is incumbent upon the players with higher usages to have higher assist rates for teammates if the offense is to be playing efficiently and with ball sharing and movement at its optimal.

bottom line blake is a more efficient player and a better ball mover and sharer. he is not a versatile scorer or a good free throw shooter, but i think a case can be made for saying that griffin plays within his limitations, and in a team game that has intrinsic value. plus he is young and seems to be improving, while melo is not improving and will only be getting older and slower.

Great post, thank you very much for taking the time to type that out.

dk7th wrote:that said, a case in point is looking at respective TS% for both players. remember that this stat incorporates 2-pointers, 3-pointers, and free throws into a bundle. therefore, a player like griffin is at a disadvantage because he does not shoot the 3. and a so-called versatile scorer like melo that is supposed to be so effective going to the basket, drawing fouls, and hitting 3s should be at an advantage.

but griffin even without the 3 is at an above-average 56%TS for his career and 57% this season. as a matter of fact he has been trending upwards. melo, meanwhile is a below-average at 54.5%TS for his career with a basic flatline. he is basically the same inefficient scorer he always has been. is griffin at an advantage because he gets set up by others to finish, sort of like stoudemire used to be? yes, that is a factor since he is more of a pure power forward. is he at a disadvantage because he is a poor free throw shooter? yes he needs to improve there too. but considering that melo is regarded as an elite scorer his TS% says otherwise, while griffin, for all his limitations, is still more efficient scorer, ie not a volume shooter. to see what i mean, look at how many shots melo takes to get his points compared to griffin: melo shoots an average of 20 times a game-- that's too much for someone who scores inefficiently. meanwhile griffin takes 15.5 shots to get his points. melo has averaged 1.28 points per shot attempt while blake averages 1.35 points per shot. lebron 1.37, durant 1.42. this is quite a gap.

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and call bull****. A player's true shooting percentage (TS%) is a means of better standardizing a player's shooting prowess, since 3 point shots are harder to hit and can skew a FG%. The fact that Melo takes more 3's has nothing to do with the metric because it is being standardized; hence the entire point of the stat. With that being said, there is only a 2.4% difference between the two. In what statistical community is that enough to yield a "significant difference"?

I'm not entirely sure what the league average is but according to this site, Melo's TS% is 65th in the league, which does not sound elite (nor does it sound below average since there are over 400 players in the league) but is still in the ballpark of other contemporaries that are highly regarded as efficient offensive players: Tony Parker (55th: 55.7 TS%), Ty Lawson (61st: 55.0 TS%), Roy Hibbert (64th: 54.8 TS%), Joe Johnson (68th: 54.5 TS%), Monta Ellis (71st: 54.1 TS%), Loul Deng (72nd: 53.8 TS%), Kyrie Irving (84th: 52.4 TS%), John Wall (89th: 52.0 TS%), Russell Westbrook (92nd: 51.8 TS%), David West (98th: 51.4 TS%) and LaMarcus Aldridge (100th: 51.1 TS%).

Given the fact that some of the people ahead of Melo on the list are Kyle Korver (2nd: 67.1 TS%), Robin Lopez (17th: 59.7 TS%) and DeAndre Jordan (20th: 59.5 TS%), I'd pipe down about this stat being indicative of a player's offensive abilities or prowess http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/player-stat/ts-percentage. Kevin Garnett, a sure-fire first ballot Hall of Famer, had a career TS% of 54.7% and I've never heard of him being considered an "inefficient scorer". WILT FUCKING CHAMBERLAIN, also had a TS% of 54.7% and I've never heard of him being considered an "inefficient scorer" http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html Meanwhile, Michael Jordan had a 56.9 TS%, so I guess that means Blake Griffin is destined to be the superior offensive player http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

dk7th wrote:raw assists? that's too simplistic. look at the usage (USG%) for both players and then look at the assisted baskets (AST%) when each are on the floor. first off griffin's usage is a quite reasonable one at 26.5% while melo's is astronomical: 32% for the bulk of his career. meanwhile griffin's teammates get assisted around 17% of the time when he is on the floor which means he is not a ball stopper or offensive stagnator-- the ratio of usage to assisted buckets is a healthy 1.56:1 for blake as a power forward, and an unhealthy 2.13 for melo for a tweener. really anything over 1.80:1 means offensive stagnation for anyone whose usage rate is 25 and over. i mean in a perfectly balanced offense i suppose all 5 players would have a 20% usage rate, right?... so it is incumbent upon the players with higher usages to have higher assist rates for teammates if the offense is to be playing efficiently and with ball sharing and movement at its optimal.

bottom line blake is a more efficient player and a better ball mover and sharer. he is not a versatile scorer or a good free throw shooter, but i think a case can be made for saying that griffin plays within his limitations, and in a team game that has intrinsic value. plus he is young and seems to be improving, while melo is not improving and will only be getting older and slower.

Why are we looking at USG%? That has no bearing on the conversation, other than to reinforce the fact that Carmelo is a franchise caliber player and operates as such, like Paul George (28.3 2013-2014 USG%), Kevin Garnett during his T-Wolves years (27.8-29.0 USG%), Kobe Bryant (31.8 Career USG%) and Dwayne Wade (32.0 Career USG%). It would seem to be an indictment as a star player to have a lower USG% than a higher one, given the names on the list.

As for assisted baskets (AST%), one has to account for a team's proficiency in completing shots off the pass which is in part demonstrated by the offensive efficiency rating (ORtg) aka a standard for measuring how good/****ty teammates are. While Melo may have a lower AST% rating compared to Blake, he's also consistently had ****tier players. For example, this season the Knicks rank 19th in this respect (104.5) and the Clippers rank 8th (108.5). The Knicks also rank 29th (90.3) in pace compared to the Clippers who rank 6th (95.7). Better scoring teammates and a quicker pace that offers more possessions equal more opportunities to assist and pad your AST%. It's as simple as that. Bottom line, you have an agenda and no gimmicky stats will validate your bull****.

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

dk7th wrote:that said, a case in point is looking at respective TS% for both players. remember that this stat incorporates 2-pointers, 3-pointers, and free throws into a bundle. therefore, a player like griffin is at a disadvantage because he does not shoot the 3. and a so-called versatile scorer like melo that is supposed to be so effective going to the basket, drawing fouls, and hitting 3s should be at an advantage.

but griffin even without the 3 is at an above-average 56%TS for his career and 57% this season. as a matter of fact he has been trending upwards. melo, meanwhile is a below-average at 54.5%TS for his career with a basic flatline. he is basically the same inefficient scorer he always has been. is griffin at an advantage because he gets set up by others to finish, sort of like stoudemire used to be? yes, that is a factor since he is more of a pure power forward. is he at a disadvantage because he is a poor free throw shooter? yes he needs to improve there too. but considering that melo is regarded as an elite scorer his TS% says otherwise, while griffin, for all his limitations, is still more efficient scorer, ie not a volume shooter. to see what i mean, look at how many shots melo takes to get his points compared to griffin: melo shoots an average of 20 times a game-- that's too much for someone who scores inefficiently. meanwhile griffin takes 15.5 shots to get his points. melo has averaged 1.28 points per shot attempt while blake averages 1.35 points per shot. lebron 1.37, durant 1.42. this is quite a gap.

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and call bull****. A player's true shooting percentage (TS%) is a means of better standardizing a player's shooting prowess, since 3 point shots are harder to hit and can skew a FG%. The fact that Melo takes more 3's has nothing to do with the metric because it is being standardized; hence the entire point of the stat. With that being said, there is only a 2.4% difference between the two. In what statistical community is that enough to yield a "significant difference"?

I'm not entirely sure what the league average is but according to this site, Melo's TS% is 65th in the league, which does not sound elite (nor does it sound below average since there are over 400 players in the league) but is still in the ballpark of other contemporaries that are highly regarded as efficient offensive players: Tony Parker (55th: 55.7 TS%), Ty Lawson (61st: 55.0 TS%), Roy Hibbert (64th: 54.8 TS%), Joe Johnson (68th: 54.5 TS%), Monta Ellis (71st: 54.1 TS%), Loul Deng (72nd: 53.8 TS%), Kyrie Irving (84th: 52.4 TS%), John Wall (89th: 52.0 TS%), Russell Westbrook (92nd: 51.8 TS%), David West (98th: 51.4 TS%) and LaMarcus Aldridge (100th: 51.1 TS%).

Given the fact that some of the people ahead of Melo on the list are Kyle Korver (2nd: 67.1 TS%), Robin Lopez (17th: 59.7 TS%) and DeAndre Jordan (20th: 59.5 TS%), I'd pipe down about this stat being indicative of a player's offensive abilities or prowess http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/player-stat/ts-percentage. Kevin Garnett, a sure-fire first ballot Hall of Famer, had a career TS% of 54.7% and I've never heard of him being considered an "inefficient scorer". WILT FUCKING CHAMBERLAIN, also had a TS% of 54.7% and I've never heard of him being considered an "inefficient scorer" http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html Meanwhile, Michael Jordan had a 56.9 TS%, so I guess that means Blake Griffin is destined to be the superior offensive player http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

dk7th wrote:raw assists? that's too simplistic. look at the usage (USG%) for both players and then look at the assisted baskets (AST%) when each are on the floor. first off griffin's usage is a quite reasonable one at 26.5% while melo's is astronomical: 32% for the bulk of his career. meanwhile griffin's teammates get assisted around 17% of the time when he is on the floor which means he is not a ball stopper or offensive stagnator-- the ratio of usage to assisted buckets is a healthy 1.56:1 for blake as a power forward, and an unhealthy 2.13 for melo for a tweener. really anything over 1.80:1 means offensive stagnation for anyone whose usage rate is 25 and over. i mean in a perfectly balanced offense i suppose all 5 players would have a 20% usage rate, right?... so it is incumbent upon the players with higher usages to have higher assist rates for teammates if the offense is to be playing efficiently and with ball sharing and movement at its optimal.

bottom line blake is a more efficient player and a better ball mover and sharer. he is not a versatile scorer or a good free throw shooter, but i think a case can be made for saying that griffin plays within his limitations, and in a team game that has intrinsic value. plus he is young and seems to be improving, while melo is not improving and will only be getting older and slower.

Why are we looking at USG%? That has no bearing on the conversation, other than to reinforce the fact that Carmelo is a franchise caliber player and operates as such, like Paul George (28.3 2013-2014 USG%), Kevin Garnett during his T-Wolves years (27.8-29.0 USG%), Kobe Bryant (31.8 Career USG%) and Dwayne Wade (32.0 Career USG%). It would seem to be an indictment as a star player to have a lower USG% than a higher one, given the names on the list.

As for assisted baskets (AST%), one has to account for a team's proficiency in completing shots off the pass which is in part demonstrated by the offensive efficiency rating (ORtg) aka a standard for measuring how good/****ty teammates are. While Melo may have a lower AST% rating compared to Blake, he's also consistently had ****tier players. For example, this season the Knicks rank 19th in this respect (104.5) and the Clippers rank 8th (108.5). The Knicks also rank 29th (90.3) in pace compared to the Clippers who rank 6th (95.7). Better scoring teammates and a quicker pace that offers more possessions equal more opportunities to assist and pad your AST%. It's as simple as that. Bottom line, you have an agenda and no gimmicky stats will validate your bull****.

The TS% difference is substantial actually. For a guy who takes about 20 shots and 7 FTs, a .025 TS% improvement is going to give about 1 more point a game. If I remember correctly, adding 1 free point per game (not a point on a new possession but a free point) adds something like 4 wins over an 82 game season.

With all due respect, I think it's a stupid ass statistic. What does it really prove or even intimate? That I should start building my team around Kyle Korver, Robin Lopez and DeAndre Jordan?