EnySpree wrote:
this guy needs to get his shot first before trading Melo for Blake.

Just play Tyler at the 5, which is his projected position anyway. Even if it wasn't, I'd never pass on a sure thing for a "maybe".

gunsnewing wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:That gives you Blake, 2014 1st rd pick, Your 2015 1st round pick to add to Shump, THJ, Murray and Tyler.

Who knows maybe we even draft a great PG or C

Or add em with cap space and flexibility in 2015

Why would the Clippers be giving up picks, when they are the ones getting older?

To get Tyson and increase their ceiling

I get the fact we're giving up the better players but they are also a lot older. The better play is balanced by the longer term promise of Griffin and Jordan, which makes things square IMO. If we could still manage to get picks back, it'd be the first good move that the Knicks have made since trading for Latrell Sprewell and Marcus Camby in the same offseason. I could see the deal in principle happening but not with picks.

We aren't going anywhere and both of those players are very tradeable. very few teams win in this league and even fewer have a player that everyone wants to see. That's what Blake gives you.

So we go uptemo with Felton, Shump, THJR, Blake and Deandre if a deal comes up where we can acquire additional picks and begin to add space why not.

make it so

MS wrote:I actually like the idea of the Melo and Chandler for Griffin and Deandre if we can also secure a pick.

We aren't going anywhere and both of those players are very tradeable. very few teams win in this league and even fewer have a player that everyone wants to see. That's what Blake gives you.

So we go uptemo with Felton, Shump, THJR, Blake and Deandre if a deal comes up where we can acquire additional picks and begin to add space why not.

We need another coach for this group... so if Melo goes so in Woody

franco12 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

franco12 wrote:what am I missing that people are not crazy about Blake Griffin? If we end up with Griffin for Melo and whatever added parts (Chandler, etc), then we've robbed the Clippers. He has 4 years of upside. Melo is what he is, and probably has 1-2 more peak seasons.

This is the kind of trade the knicks would make - trading younger/draft pick for flawed star.

I doubt this has any chance of happening.

As I've told you before, Griffin is good but he can't carry a team on either end and has no guarantee for improvement (see Rasheed Wallace, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, etc.). Melo, on the other hand, can carry a team, well enough. This is the key difference.

You mean Melo can carry a team, like this year?

You know that there are other seasons that existed before this one, right?

NardDogNation wrote:

franco12 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

franco12 wrote:what am I missing that people are not crazy about Blake Griffin? If we end up with Griffin for Melo and whatever added parts (Chandler, etc), then we've robbed the Clippers. He has 4 years of upside. Melo is what he is, and probably has 1-2 more peak seasons.

This is the kind of trade the knicks would make - trading younger/draft pick for flawed star.

I doubt this has any chance of happening.

As I've told you before, Griffin is good but he can't carry a team on either end and has no guarantee for improvement (see Rasheed Wallace, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, etc.). Melo, on the other hand, can carry a team, well enough. This is the key difference.

You mean Melo can carry a team, like this year?

You know that there are other seasons that existed before this one, right?

Melo has always played on good teams.

Ironically Blake has only had one bad team...his first year as a rook.

but to be fair, can one year wipe out that melo cant carry a team? If not, then you cant say Blake cant.

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

franco12 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

franco12 wrote:what am I missing that people are not crazy about Blake Griffin? If we end up with Griffin for Melo and whatever added parts (Chandler, etc), then we've robbed the Clippers. He has 4 years of upside. Melo is what he is, and probably has 1-2 more peak seasons.

This is the kind of trade the knicks would make - trading younger/draft pick for flawed star.

I doubt this has any chance of happening.

As I've told you before, Griffin is good but he can't carry a team on either end and has no guarantee for improvement (see Rasheed Wallace, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, etc.). Melo, on the other hand, can carry a team, well enough. This is the key difference.

You mean Melo can carry a team, like this year?

You know that there are other seasons that existed before this one, right?

Team records are a TEAM accomplishment, unless there is a clear sample to reflect on and off court.

Melo has always played on good teams.

Ironically Blake has only had one bad team...his first year as a rook.

but to be fair, can one year wipe out that melo cant carry a team? If not, then you cant say Blake cant.

Melo, in his first season, flipped a 19 win Nuggets roster into a 43 win team. I think he had a much bigger part in their success than you are letting on. Yes, he eventually got some good pieces (e.g. a grossly overpriced and overrated Kenyon Martin, a healthy Nene, Billups, Aaron Afflalo, George Karl) but that was years after the fact and aside from Billups, none of those guys were game changers (aka guys that significantly change the nature of how a team gameplans against you) IMO . More importantly, at no point in his career did Melo ever play with anyone that was of a CP3 caliber. Griffin benefits from that every night and he still can't create shots for himself in the playoffs. Flip Griffin and Melo and the Clippers become juggernauts.

On a side, I disagree about team records being a team accomplishment, at least in the regular season. There have been guys so good that they got their teams into the playoffs single-handedly. LeBron did it with all those subpar Cavs teams. People forget that they kept their 2009-2010 supporting cast and the same team, sans LeBron, won only 19 games the following season. That says a lot about what he was working with. The same can be said with Kobe Bryant during the 2005-2006 with bum ass Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm and Ira Newble as rotation players. There is a reason why those guys are first ballot Hall of Famers and that's because they transcend universal truth's.

But none of that matters, better teams should play better, and naturally the best player gets credit for such.

But there is no proof at all that Blake cannot carry a team, but even if he cant he isnt paid as one either.

The playing with CP3 is a farce imo, Blake has produced no matter whom he's played with.

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

franco12 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

franco12 wrote:what am I missing that people are not crazy about Blake Griffin? If we end up with Griffin for Melo and whatever added parts (Chandler, etc), then we've robbed the Clippers. He has 4 years of upside. Melo is what he is, and probably has 1-2 more peak seasons.

This is the kind of trade the knicks would make - trading younger/draft pick for flawed star.

I doubt this has any chance of happening.

As I've told you before, Griffin is good but he can't carry a team on either end and has no guarantee for improvement (see Rasheed Wallace, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, etc.). Melo, on the other hand, can carry a team, well enough. This is the key difference.

You mean Melo can carry a team, like this year?

You know that there are other seasons that existed before this one, right?

Team records are a TEAM accomplishment, unless there is a clear sample to reflect on and off court.

Melo has always played on good teams.

Ironically Blake has only had one bad team...his first year as a rook.

but to be fair, can one year wipe out that melo cant carry a team? If not, then you cant say Blake cant.

Melo, in his first season, flipped a 19 win Nuggets roster into a 43 win team. I think he had a much bigger part in their success than you are letting on. Yes, he eventually got some good pieces (e.g. a grossly overpriced and overrated Kenyon Martin, a healthy Nene, Billups, Aaron Afflalo, George Karl) but that was years after the fact and aside from Billups, none of those guys were game changers (aka guys that significantly change the nature of how a team gameplans against you) IMO . More importantly, at no point in his career did Melo ever play with anyone that was of a CP3 caliber. Griffin benefits from that every night and he still can't create shots for himself in the playoffs. Flip Griffin and Melo and the Clippers become juggernauts.

On a side, I disagree about team records being a team accomplishment, at least in the regular season. There have been guys so good that they got their teams into the playoffs single-handedly. LeBron did it with all those subpar Cavs teams. People forget that they kept their 2009-2010 supporting cast and the same team, sans LeBron, won only 19 games the following season. That says a lot about what he was working with. The same can be said with Kobe Bryant during the 2005-2006 with bum ass Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm and Ira Newble as rotation players. There is a reason why those guys are first ballot Hall of Famers and that's because they transcend universal truth's.

That 19 win team wasnt the same team Melo inherited, there was quite a bit of a talent infusion that year...a totally revamped roster, which in the following year even upgraded the coaching.

But none of that matters, better teams should play better, and naturally the best player gets credit for such.

But there is no proof at all that Blake cannot carry a team, but even if he cant he isnt paid as one either.

The playing with CP3 is a farce imo, Blake has produced no matter whom he's played with.

Most of that "revamping" occurred on the back end of that roster. The key pieces (e.g. Marcus Camby, Nene, Chris Andersen, Nikola Tskvisigjlslbs (I know I misspelled his name)) were all there from the year before. The only major change was Andre Miller at point, that despite being a personal favorite of mine, was no star or guarantor of success. Remember that he hadn't even made the playoffs up until that point in his career and had been associated with some of the league's worse.

And I think there definitely is emerging evidence that Blake can't carry a team. I think his first season is inadmissible because no rookie should be expected to carry that burden. Still, when you look at the Clippers record without Paul, it ain't pretty especially when you consider the competition they had been playing. It's been a popular topic of conversation, some of which you could read here http://www.clipsnation.com/2013/2/14/3989272/the-value-of-chris-paul-la-clippers-lebron-james-kevin-durant-mvp

Even with CP3, Griffin goes through stretches of being a non-entity. Despite 4 seasons in the league, he's still very much the same player and has yet to commit a post move to memory, which Charles Barkley and Shaq comment on constantly. He puts up nice numbers but there have been players in the past that have and not translated to wins, despite having good players around them e.g. Chris Bosh, Al Jefferson, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, etc.