earthmansurfer wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:

franco12 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:For the love of God, trade Melo to the Clippers, Griffin to the Nuggets and get back our pick (all in package deals ) before Denver realizes we can't turn things around. If Chandler is included to the Clippers deal for DeAndre Jordan, maybe we could sucker the Cavs into giving up their 1st round pick for Jordan and possibly a Jeff Green type through a third team. At this point, it couldn't be more clear that we need to rebuild and that we should have the means to really jump start the process. Can you imagine how amazing it would be to walk away with the 1st and 7th overall picks in this draft and never having to deal with the likes of JR Smith, Chris Smith, or Raymond Felton again?

why does anyone think we could get the Clippers to give up Griffin?

But yes, this organization should see the flaws on the team, realize Melo is likely to bolt and make the moves now to try to re-tool.

I'd be happy getting a second rounder for Melo and clearing cap room and building the right way.

Melo bolting or wanting to leave would be the best thing to ever happen to this team. They need to trade him, as you say, not only because he may want to leave but because he needs to GO!

Get assets back. You can 3 productive players who miss shots at the end of a game for his salary! The other 3 guys may just do enough during the game and not put the team in such a bad position and that wont even matter then. Get picks back for Melo and Chandler. Get balls back for JR and Fatton and Peace. LEt the rest stay and learn to play the game again under a new YOUNG and hungry coach.

Dude, Melo is not the problem here. Everything else around Melo is the problem. He's the kind of talent that turns a 17 win Nuggets roster into a 43 win team the following year; except for the fact that we have the better version of that. He just now happens to have the misfortune of dealing with a $21 million albatross of a contract, an injured supporting cast, JR Smith, Mike Woodson and an incompetent front office that thinks trading assets for Andrea Bargnani is a good idea. Like I said, Melo isn't the problem. The only problem he presents is the probability of him leaving us, without getting back any assets. That's why we trade him.

All Melo had to do was not say anything and sign here as a free agent. We would have all our picks and assets to build the right team. But even with what we had, it would have been pretty damn good. We probably wouldn't have fallen in to get Lin, but he isn't here anyway. Gallo is just the exact type of player for his position to have next to Melo.

Really, not to be anti Melo, but he essentially ruined this team by how he got himself here. If he really wanted to win, he would not have did what he did. Any dummy could see that. And that other dummy, Dummy Dolan bid against himself, so no free pass on either side.

I don't disagree. In fact, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Even after the trade though, the Knicks had tons of promise and flexibility though e.g. nearly $20 million in projected cap space for the next season, the ability to amnesty Amar'e (which would've added nearly $20 million more to that figure) and a few more assets (Landry Fields, Toney Douglas whose value hadn't imploded yet and Ronny Turiaf). What did we do? We waived Corey Brewer's $5 million contract for no good reason, which lead to us having to amnesty Billups to acquire Tyson Chandler; which left us stuck with Amar'e. We let the trade value of our remaining assets disintegrate, instead of moving them for some kind of value. We let Jeremy Lin walk for nothing and instead extended Steve Novak who was clearly a bum. And we unnecessarily traded away our projects for Marcus Camby, who hardly played for us. Yes, Melo screwed us when he forced his way here via trade but the bulk of the blame for the current product we have is the result of shotty management.

NardDogNation wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:

franco12 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:For the love of God, trade Melo to the Clippers, Griffin to the Nuggets and get back our pick (all in package deals ) before Denver realizes we can't turn things around. If Chandler is included to the Clippers deal for DeAndre Jordan, maybe we could sucker the Cavs into giving up their 1st round pick for Jordan and possibly a Jeff Green type through a third team. At this point, it couldn't be more clear that we need to rebuild and that we should have the means to really jump start the process. Can you imagine how amazing it would be to walk away with the 1st and 7th overall picks in this draft and never having to deal with the likes of JR Smith, Chris Smith, or Raymond Felton again?

why does anyone think we could get the Clippers to give up Griffin?

But yes, this organization should see the flaws on the team, realize Melo is likely to bolt and make the moves now to try to re-tool.

I'd be happy getting a second rounder for Melo and clearing cap room and building the right way.

Melo bolting or wanting to leave would be the best thing to ever happen to this team. They need to trade him, as you say, not only because he may want to leave but because he needs to GO!

Get assets back. You can 3 productive players who miss shots at the end of a game for his salary! The other 3 guys may just do enough during the game and not put the team in such a bad position and that wont even matter then. Get picks back for Melo and Chandler. Get balls back for JR and Fatton and Peace. LEt the rest stay and learn to play the game again under a new YOUNG and hungry coach.

Dude, Melo is not the problem here. Everything else around Melo is the problem. He's the kind of talent that turns a 17 win Nuggets roster into a 43 win team the following year; except for the fact that we have the better version of that. He just now happens to have the misfortune of dealing with a $21 million albatross of a contract, an injured supporting cast, JR Smith, Mike Woodson and an incompetent front office that thinks trading assets for Andrea Bargnani is a good idea. Like I said, Melo isn't the problem. The only problem he presents is the probability of him leaving us, without getting back any assets. That's why we trade him.

All Melo had to do was not say anything and sign here as a free agent. We would have all our picks and assets to build the right team. But even with what we had, it would have been pretty damn good. We probably wouldn't have fallen in to get Lin, but he isn't here anyway. Gallo is just the exact type of player for his position to have next to Melo.

Really, not to be anti Melo, but he essentially ruined this team by how he got himself here. If he really wanted to win, he would not have did what he did. Any dummy could see that. And that other dummy, Dummy Dolan bid against himself, so no free pass on either side.

I don't disagree. In fact, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Even after the trade though, the Knicks had tons of promise flexibility e.g. nearly $20 million in projected cap space for the next season, the ability to amnesty Amar'e (which would've added nearly $20 million more to that figure) and a few more assets (Landry Fields, Toney Douglas whose value hadn't imploded yet and Ronny Turiaf). What did we do? We waived Corey Brewer's $5 million contract for no good reason, which lead to us having to amnesty Billups to acquire Tyson Chandler; leaving us stuck with Amar'e. We let the trade value of our remaining assets disintegrate, instead of moving them for some kind of asset. We let Jeremy Lin walk for nothing and instead extended Steve Novak who was clearly a bum. And we unnecessarily traded away our projects for Marcus Camby, who hardly played for us. Yes, Melo screwed us when he forced his way here via trade but the bulk of the blame for the current product we have is the result of shotty management.

agree

franco12 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

franco12 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:For the love of God, trade Melo to the Clippers, Griffin to the Nuggets and get back our pick (all in package deals ) before Denver realizes we can't turn things around. If Chandler is included to the Clippers deal for DeAndre Jordan, maybe we could sucker the Cavs into giving up their 1st round pick for Jordan and possibly a Jeff Green type through a third team. At this point, it couldn't be more clear that we need to rebuild and that we should have the means to really jump start the process. Can you imagine how amazing it would be to walk away with the 1st and 7th overall picks in this draft and never having to deal with the likes of JR Smith, Chris Smith, or Raymond Felton again?

why does anyone think we could get the Clippers to give up Griffin?

But yes, this organization should see the flaws on the team, realize Melo is likely to bolt and make the moves now to try to re-tool.

I'd be happy getting a second rounder for Melo and clearing cap room and building the right way.

You're an idiot if you think all that Melo gets you is a 2nd rounder. I get how Blake Griffin can be a reach but at least a star is being dealt for a star. In any case, I do think that a deal like this has legs because all signs point to the Clippers wanting to win now and Melo offers them a better chance to do that. He is a far more accomplished scorer and is close friends with CP3, who would endorse the deal. When you add in other pieces like Tyson Chandler and a Kenneth Faried, I think it helps to dramatically improve the Clippers and make them true title contenders.

It's become fashion for the anti-Melo crowd to routinely **** on Melo but people forget that just last year, he took an Indiana team to 6 games that nearly beat Miami in the subsequent series. This of course happened with a broken down Tyson Chandler (who helped tremendously in getting this far but was a no-show that series) and a supporting cast that couldn't shoot into the ocean. Now, imagine what he'd be like next to a legitimate superstar that compliments his game and vice versa: enter CP3. Now, imagine that next to accomplished shooters that can space the floor like JJ Redick and Jamal Crawford. It's a true, pick your poison scenario offensively with Tyson Chandler there to clean up the defensive end without the bone-headed plays, poor free throw shooting or other liabilities that DeAndre Jordan presents. This is why the Clippers make the move.

For the record - I don't think we couldn't get more than a second round pick for Melo - just that I would be happy with one!

Griffin I think is a reach. I don't know that Melo is better- look, Griffin is a lot younger, and if he were on the Knicks, I wouldn't trade him for Melo.

But I think I agree with the notion that we don't have the assets coming to capitalize on Melo right now - he is at his peak, and I don't see the parts coming here to help get him and us over the hump. Better to start from scratch.

Griffin is young and productive but there is no real guarantee that he improves (see Rasheed Wallace's career). As things stand now, I think Melo is the better player because he can carry a team's offense and win you games down the stretch. As good as Blake is, he can't carry a team in any respect, which makes his stats a bit like fool's gold. I think that much is evidenced by the fact that the Clippers lost to teams with inferior players, back to back years in the playoffs.

On the flip, Melo has demonstrated that he can win if he has help (Chauncey Billups and a cancer free George Karl in Denver; Tyson Chandler and a contract-motivated JR Smith in New York). Now, imagine if he had the caliber of help that is CP3 and a supporting cast that can allow him to play basketball without the fear of a double. That's a scary prospect for all teams. Like I said before, our rag tag bunch of mediocrity, lasted 6 games against Indiana in the playoffs and came close to pushing a 7th game. Melo, CP3, Chandler and shooters could supplant the Pacers as the heir apparent to the Heat's throne and could even be better than the Heat.

playa2 wrote:When we draft mature guys who did 4 yrs in college and learn how to manage money and nightlife then we can talk about keeping draft picks.

I think that's nonsense. Andrew Bynum was as immature as they come and he managed to come of age in LA, which is not much different than NY. Allen Iverson came of age in Philadelphia and he, by all means, was a douchebag. Talent is talent, is talent is talent and if the guy is good enough, he'll succeed if the franchise has the tools/means to develop him properly. Besides, EVERY city has a nightlife and vices to indulge in, especially if you have the money to fund the habit. These realities are things every NBA franchise has to face with young players especially since teams travel to exotic destinations for half the season anyway.

playa2 wrote:When we draft mature guys who did 4 yrs in college and learn how to manage money and nightlife then we can talk about keeping draft picks.

Can we please keep David Lee, Wilson Chandler and Trevor Ariza?

misterearl wrote:Impatience

Did somebody say draft picks?

Here are your NYK starters... (with the caveat Isiah gets just one additional pick right)

Center - Nene, the Knicks draft pick given away for Antonio McDyess
Forward - David Lee, drafted 30th in the first round by Zeke
Forward - Wilson Chandler, drafted out of DePaul by Zeke
Guard - Trevor Ariza
Guard - Rajon Rondo (selected one pick after Renaldo Balkman)

Bench
Danilo Gallinari (injured)
Jordan Hill, good enough to be in rotation for Lakers
Landry Fields, good enough to play in Toronto
Toney Douglas, go Noles

Isiah Thomas--two names Eddy Curry Stephon Marbury---fcked us for years.

BRIGGS wrote:

playa2 wrote:When we draft mature guys who did 4 yrs in college and learn how to manage money and nightlife then we can talk about keeping draft picks.

Who like JR Smith Eddy Curry or Stephon Marbury? We lead the league in giving up draft picks for the dumbest players in the league

Guard - Iman Shumpert (how far we have fallen out of favor, Iman; AnswerMan doesn't even know you anymore)

Hey, it's a rough business. Janet Jackson sang, "what have you done for me lately?"

Landry Fields is good enough to be eighth man in 2014, plus his old lady is hot.

Lack of Continuity destroys vision.

Has it really come to jrod and The Answer Man throwing jelly donuts at each other?

You left out Andy Rautins. Take another strawberry-filled crueller out of petty cash, and press it into your forehead.

We draft worse than lousy, historically, if the goal is getting a chipster. It's a curse we must own and acknowledge. Sorry, but some things are just what they are. Getting lots more chances at dipping into a septic tank still net you a great chance at pulling up a wet pile of you know what. Once in 40 years you might pull out your wife's engagement ring (Ewing).

It's like dreaming about having an owner with more sense than a tree stump on a 4 lane highway at rush hour.

Deal with reality during daylight hours. Dreams are not best for the bluelight of the internet. Dolan is not aging any faster.

misterearl wrote:Impatience

Did somebody say draft picks?

Here are your NYK starters... (with the caveat Isiah gets just one additional pick right)

Center - Nene, the Knicks draft pick given away for Antonio McDyess
Forward - David Lee, drafted 30th in the first round by Zeke
Forward - Wilson Chandler, drafted out of DePaul by Zeke
Guard - Trevor Ariza
Guard - Rajon Rondo (selected one pick after Renaldo Balkman)

Bench
Danilo Gallinari (injured)
Jordan Hill, good enough to be in rotation for Lakers
Landry Fields, good enough to play in Toronto
Tim Hardaway Jr.
Toney Douglas, go Noles

That's nice but you're still factoring out the picks we gave up in the Eddy Curry debacle. Had we not made that deal, we would've had Joakim Noah and LaMarcus Aldridge, with Nene and Lee off the bench. Had we not traded for Marbury (which I still think was a good move), we would've had our 2004 pick to select either Jameer Nelson, Kevin Martin, Josh Smith, Anderson Varejao or JR Smith. We also would've been bad enough to better our 9th pick in the 2006 draft and had an opportunity to get either Deron Williams or CP3. When you factor that into the picks you mentioned, we're talking about a potential powerhouse that we traded in frivolous deals. And we still have not learned!

CrushAlot wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Has it really come to jrod and The Answer Man throwing jelly donuts at each other?

9 -21 will do things like that.

You left out Andy Rautins. Take another strawberry-filled crueller out of petty cash, and press it into your forehead.

We draft worse than lousy, historically, if the goal is getting a chipster. It's a curse we must own and acknowledge. Sorry, but some things are just what they are. Getting lots more chances at dipping into a septic tank still net you a great chance at pulling up a wet pile of you know what. Once in 40 years you might pull out your wife's engagement ring (Ewing).

It's like dreaming about having an owner with more sense than a tree stump on a 4 lane highway at rush hour.

Deal with reality during daylight hours. Dreams are not best for the bluelight of the internet. Dolan is not aging any faster.

Rautins was what 24 at the time of the draft with no upside and no real nba position? Passing up on Stephenson for Rautins looks dumb even with Stephenson's character struggles at the time. I still wonder if the Italian league connection between Leo and Mike D is why Andy got picked by the Knicks. Andy would have been an undrafted free agent if the Knicks didn't take him.

I wholeheartedly agree with the fact that we should've taken Lance Stephenson in retrospect BUT disagree about Rautins. Like what I saw from him during the summer league. His shot wasn't falling but he looked good and reminded me of a poor man's JJ Redick or Marco Bellinelli without the penetration but a better defender. He was picked way too high though, like you said.