CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:And who will write the story of the Lakers with Shaq, Boston with KG and Ray, Heat and Bron...These guys actually won Chips too..

nice try.. but the lakers with kobe, Boston with pierce and rondo, and the heat with wade... all drafted by those teams and won chips as well..

I mean really such a pathetic attempt...

Kobe was a trade but those teams did have some luck in the draft as well. I think when you look at those teams they all have at least two stars. Whatever it takes to get a second star, having more than one seems to be the key to success. Boston and Miami traded for two.

Boston and Miami definitely traded for two but they managed to do so by using guys they drafted to do so. Boston dealt their draft pick (Jeff Green) and Wally Szerzbiak for Ray Allen; while dealing Al Jefferson (draft pick), Delonte West (draft pick), Gerald Green (draft pick) and filler to get KG. Miami's method was more indirect but they managed to get their cap space and supplement their cache of picks by moving Michael Beasley (pick), Dorrell Wright (pick), DaQuan Cook (pick), the 17th pick in the 2010 draft and a few 2nd rounders for cap space. Then, to augment that core, they brought back guys like Mario Chalmers (pick), Udonis Haslem (pick), Joel Anthony (pick) and later added Norris Cole. All 4 guys were rotation players for them in 2011-2012, which makes it hard to deny their impact on the team. I agree that no one method leads to a championship but there seems to be no doubt that the draft is the key component for doing so.

NardDogNation wrote:

holfresh wrote:It's a very weak argument in the sense that it made no difference whether or not they were drafted by that particular team..Divac was traded for Kobe on draft day..It's sheer luck that Shaq wanted to go to LA or the would be no ring..Shaq went to Miami for Wade to win..Wade, Bron, and Bosh could have gone anywhere and won, the fact that Wade was drafted by Miami made no difference because all three were free agents and decided to play on the same team..Could have easily decided on another city..If they all decided Cleveland then you would say Cleveland drafted Bron..It didn't matter in that particular case..It's not hard to admit anything ..U can win by building thru the draft but it's not the only way to build and ultimately win..

In what fantasy land did Shaq go to LA and by some Herculean effort win a championship by himself? Kobe was with him every step of the way and was really the one carrying the team in the 4th in all those close playoff games. There's a reason why he's a first ballot Hall of Famer and arguably one of the top 10 players in NBA history. You then overlook the same situation with Shaq in Miami, who had Dwayne Wade. And how did Miami manage to get Shaq? Wasn't Caron Butler, their 2002 draft pick, central to that deal?

Point to any championship team and they ALL have drafted a significant portion of their core. Even looking at the NBA landscape today. Each and every contender has followed the same recipe. Is that a coincidence? You keep pointing to Miami as some aberration but do you realize that they drafted Dwayne Wade? He may have been a free agent in 2010 but he was the first of the big 3 to sign and serve as the bait for the other two, both of whom he had been close friends with. Was that a coincidence too?

I agree with all except for the fact that Miami was the destination for reasons beyond Wade already being there IMO. The no state tax gave them flexibility and continues too (the league should allow teams to adjust locally like any other organization to adjust for cost of living). Also, let's be honest, who wouldn't wanna hangout in Miami for a few years in their 20s? I see that as more the attraction. Nobody else had the space so no way of knowing.

The Knicks really mismanaged the roster pre/post lockout. What they were doing lacked any sensibility. I think in this particular situation that was the biggest problem. They also miss every time in the draft so has to be at least understandable why people would rather just try to build through FA.

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:It's a very weak argument in the sense that it made no difference whether or not they were drafted by that particular team..Divac was traded for Kobe on draft day..It's sheer luck that Shaq wanted to go to LA or the would be no ring..Shaq went to Miami for Wade to win..Wade, Bron, and Bosh could have gone anywhere and won, the fact that Wade was drafted by Miami made no difference because all three were free agents and decided to play on the same team..Could have easily decided on another city..If they all decided Cleveland then you would say Cleveland drafted Bron..It didn't matter in that particular case..It's not hard to admit anything ..U can win by building thru the draft but it's not the only way to build and ultimately win..

Clearly they didn't want to take their talents to Cleveland. It's not just a random 1 in 30 chance that Wade happened to stay in the city that drafted him and even brought to more stars to the city. They picked one of the cities that the three of them were drafted in. It was up to each of the three of them to convince the other two that their city was best, and Miami won out. I'd love to have those 1 in 3 odds. It's much better than the 0% chance that Dolan's starphucking will work.

Dolan had a very similar plan, his problem was picking Donnie to execute that plan...Donnie pick a coach who only knew pick and roll basketball...They signed a guy with bad knees to a 5 year max deal...He got half a season basketball from him...Donnie and his coach is still revered here in circles that despises the owner, go figure...

Donnie had nothing to use to attract the FAs to NY. That's the result of a decade of bad planning.
I definitely don't remember you opposing the Amare deal when it happened but I could be wrong.

It's was Killa and myself to speak out against it...

The only thing I remember are posts like this one where you had one sentence overreactions to any comments suggesting that we get rid of Amare and out of his contract:
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=40547

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

holfresh wrote:It's a very weak argument in the sense that it made no difference whether or not they were drafted by that particular team..Divac was traded for Kobe on draft day..It's sheer luck that Shaq wanted to go to LA or the would be no ring..Shaq went to Miami for Wade to win..Wade, Bron, and Bosh could have gone anywhere and won, the fact that Wade was drafted by Miami made no difference because all three were free agents and decided to play on the same team..Could have easily decided on another city..If they all decided Cleveland then you would say Cleveland drafted Bron..It didn't matter in that particular case..It's not hard to admit anything ..U can win by building thru the draft but it's not the only way to build and ultimately win..

In what fantasy land did Shaq go to LA and by some Herculean effort win a championship by himself? Kobe was with him every step of the way and was really the one carrying the team in the 4th in all those close playoff games. There's a reason why he's a first ballot Hall of Famer and arguably one of the top 10 players in NBA history. You then overlook the same situation with Shaq in Miami, who had Dwayne Wade. And how did Miami manage to get Shaq? Wasn't Caron Butler, their 2002 draft pick, central to that deal?

Point to any championship team and they ALL have drafted a significant portion of their core. Even looking at the NBA landscape today. Each and every contender has followed the same recipe. Is that a coincidence? You keep pointing to Miami as some aberration but do you realize that they drafted Dwayne Wade? He may have been a free agent in 2010 but he was the first of the big 3 to sign and serve as the bait for the other two, both of whom he had been close friends with. Was that a coincidence too?

I agree with all except for the fact that Miami was the destination for reasons beyond Wade already being there IMO. The no state tax gave them flexibility and continues too (the league should allow teams to adjust locally like any other organization to adjust for cost of living). Also, let's be honest, who wouldn't wanna hangout in Miami for a few years in their 20s? I see that as more the attraction. Nobody else had the space so no way of knowing.

The Knicks really mismanaged the roster pre/post lockout. What they were doing lacked any sensibility. I think in this particular situation that was the biggest problem. They also miss every time in the draft so has to be at least understandable why people would rather just try to build through FA.

I get what you're saying but NBA players have to pay tax in whatever city they play in and I'm pretty sure there is still a property tax in the no-income tax states (Texas, Florida and I think Delaware). The "no-income tax" is a bit overstated, especially when you consider the lack of quality free agents that Dallas has attracted over the years despite having a ton of cap space; same deal with San Antonio, who draft most of their key players. The only team, taxes makes a big difference for is if you play for the Raptors. They also have to file taxes in two countries, since they technically are residents there.

I do agree with you about the Knicks being inept though. I've beat a dead horse about how they overreached for some guys in the draft (e.g. Gallo who could've been taken 4 picks later or Shumpert who was pegged to go in the 2nd round) while passing on superior talents (e.g. Landry Fields and Andy Rautins over Lance Stephensen or Jordan Hill over Brandon Jennings, Jrue Holiday, etc.). The sad thing in all of this is that despite these shortcomings, drafting players has been our most effective means of team building, by far. If we only managed to keep those picks (in all trades but Melo), we could've been a legitimate contender. The long term investment game is the way to go; yeah, we'll have some drawbacks but we'd be going against the tide by not utilizing it wholeheartedly.

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:It's a very weak argument in the sense that it made no difference whether or not they were drafted by that particular team..Divac was traded for Kobe on draft day..It's sheer luck that Shaq wanted to go to LA or the would be no ring..Shaq went to Miami for Wade to win..Wade, Bron, and Bosh could have gone anywhere and won, the fact that Wade was drafted by Miami made no difference because all three were free agents and decided to play on the same team..Could have easily decided on another city..If they all decided Cleveland then you would say Cleveland drafted Bron..It didn't matter in that particular case..It's not hard to admit anything ..U can win by building thru the draft but it's not the only way to build and ultimately win..

Clearly they didn't want to take their talents to Cleveland. It's not just a random 1 in 30 chance that Wade happened to stay in the city that drafted him and even brought to more stars to the city. They picked one of the cities that the three of them were drafted in. It was up to each of the three of them to convince the other two that their city was best, and Miami won out. I'd love to have those 1 in 3 odds. It's much better than the 0% chance that Dolan's starphucking will work.

It was definitely not random. Miami had Riley and offered no State Tax, Climate and Lifestyle advantages. The tax advantages alone allowed them to take less money and fit under the cap structure....while netting a similiar salary they might have had in other more heavily taxed locations (like NYC for instance).

IMO the cap should be normalized with state and local tax differentials be built into the final cap figure for each team. Consider for instance that when playing in NYC vs Miami.......

New York has a state income tax of 8.8% (highest bracket)
NYC has a city income tax of 3.8% (highest)

At a salary cap figure of $60 million, that amounts to an advantage when comparing NYC vs Miami of approximately $7 million in Miami's favor on a net basis. Combine this also with the cost of living differential which is an additional 8% advantage for Miami.

These guys all have accountants and quite frankly with the exception of endorsement differentials there is really no advantage of playing in NYC vs a place like Miami from a financial perspective.

NardDogNation wrote:I never thought that the Pacers would be as good as they currently are but they certainly have made me into a believer. What's more impressive is the fact that most of their talent is home-grown; using their picks to select guys that were available to us in those drafts.

In the 2004 draft, the Pacers picked Danny Granger with the 19th pick, while we selected Channing Frye with the 8th pick.

In the 2008 draft, the Pacers picked Roy Hibbert with the 17th pick, while we reached and picked Danilo Gallinari with the 6th pick. They also managed to acquire George Hill from the Spurs a year later who was picked with the 26th pick.

In the 2010 draft, they picked Paul George with the 10th pick. As much as we didn't have a pick, would it have been so far fetch'd to think that the Knicks could have sign and traded David Lee the season before or during the draft for a lottery pick? Meanwhile, in the second round we picked Andy Rautins and Landry Fields with the 38th and 39th pick, while the Pacers picked Lance Stephenson with the 40th pick.

Even some of the players they signed/traded for were available to us in their respective drafts. David West (18th pick), for instance, was available to us in the 2003 draft that we selected Mike Sweetney in (8th pick). In the 2002 draft, we used our 36th pick to select Milos Vujanic with Luis Scola still available (56th pick).

I suppose the point of this story is that we need to do a better job in keeping our picks and making them worth-wild. It just so happens to be one of the few things we do compartively well, which is why I would not be opposed to rebuilding with a slew of picks. We'd need some influx of front office talent to make it all work but it can and should be done. It really is the primary method for building a sustainable contender.

They also drafted Plumlee with the 26th Pick in 2012 (traded him to the Suns though), and he is a very important piece in Pheonix (averaging almost a double double and 2 blocks in 28 mins). Also they could have kept Kawhi Leonard. A very, very good drafting team AND a superb team at developing talent- if we had drafted Paul George, he probably would have ended up like Shump!

NardDogNation wrote:

holfresh wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:It's a very weak argument in the sense that it made no difference whether or not they were drafted by that particular team..Divac was traded for Kobe on draft day..It's sheer luck that Shaq wanted to go to LA or the would be no ring..Shaq went to Miami for Wade to win..Wade, Bron, and Bosh could have gone anywhere and won, the fact that Wade was drafted by Miami made no difference because all three were free agents and decided to play on the same team..Could have easily decided on another city..If they all decided Cleveland then you would say Cleveland drafted Bron..It didn't matter in that particular case..It's not hard to admit anything ..U can win by building thru the draft but it's not the only way to build and ultimately win..

Clearly they didn't want to take their talents to Cleveland. It's not just a random 1 in 30 chance that Wade happened to stay in the city that drafted him and even brought to more stars to the city. They picked one of the cities that the three of them were drafted in. It was up to each of the three of them to convince the other two that their city was best, and Miami won out. I'd love to have those 1 in 3 odds. It's much better than the 0% chance that Dolan's starphucking will work.

Dolan had a very similar plan, his problem was picking Donnie to execute that plan...Donnie pick a coach who only knew pick and roll basketball...They signed a guy with bad knees to a 5 year max deal...He got half a season basketball from him...Donnie and his coach is still revered here in circles that despises the owner, go figure...

It can't be considered a "very similar plan" if they key component of the plan I.e. having a superstar still in his prime, attract two other stars/superstars. There's a reason why LeBron and Bosh went to Miami, when they stood to make more money in endorsements in New York.

Yeah, A team that had only one player signed on their books...

AGAIN, two things that are in the ballpark of one another are not inherently have parity. Olivia Munn and Roseanne both have vaginas. It doesn't mean I'd **** the both of them.

Hey! What have you got against Olivia?

smackeddog wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:I never thought that the Pacers would be as good as they currently are but they certainly have made me into a believer. What's more impressive is the fact that most of their talent is home-grown; using their picks to select guys that were available to us in those drafts.

In the 2004 draft, the Pacers picked Danny Granger with the 19th pick, while we selected Channing Frye with the 8th pick.

In the 2008 draft, the Pacers picked Roy Hibbert with the 17th pick, while we reached and picked Danilo Gallinari with the 6th pick. They also managed to acquire George Hill from the Spurs a year later who was picked with the 26th pick.

In the 2010 draft, they picked Paul George with the 10th pick. As much as we didn't have a pick, would it have been so far fetch'd to think that the Knicks could have sign and traded David Lee the season before or during the draft for a lottery pick? Meanwhile, in the second round we picked Andy Rautins and Landry Fields with the 38th and 39th pick, while the Pacers picked Lance Stephenson with the 40th pick.

Even some of the players they signed/traded for were available to us in their respective drafts. David West (18th pick), for instance, was available to us in the 2003 draft that we selected Mike Sweetney in (8th pick). In the 2002 draft, we used our 36th pick to select Milos Vujanic with Luis Scola still available (56th pick).

I suppose the point of this story is that we need to do a better job in keeping our picks and making them worth-wild. It just so happens to be one of the few things we do compartively well, which is why I would not be opposed to rebuilding with a slew of picks. We'd need some influx of front office talent to make it all work but it can and should be done. It really is the primary method for building a sustainable contender.

They also drafted Plumlee with the 26th Pick in 2012 (traded him to the Suns though), and he is a very important piece in Pheonix (averaging almost a double double and 2 blocks in 28 mins). Also they could have kept Kawhi Leonard. A very, very good drafting team AND a superb team at developing talent- if we had drafted Paul George, he probably would have ended up like Shump!

I really hate this player development thing. Shump is ending up being exactly what he was projected to be. I (like most) was stunned when the Knicks selected him. Norris Cole seemed to be the pick for me there based on need and the fact that I thought he was best available based on what I had seen from him at the college level.

Do the Knicks do a great job of player development. Absolutely not, but the real problem is that we continue to reach on guys then the organization passes out all the Kool-Aid you can drink for these guys. Fields was by far the worst IMO. They acted like he was sent down from heaven refusing to see if they could get anything for him and now look. Guy is barely in the league.

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:And who will write the story of the Lakers with Shaq, Boston with KG and Ray, Heat and Bron...These guys actually won Chips too..

nice try.. but the lakers with kobe, Boston with pierce and rondo, and the heat with wade... all drafted by those teams and won chips as well..

I mean really such a pathetic attempt...

Kobe was a trade but those teams did have some luck in the draft as well. I think when you look at those teams they all have at least two stars. Whatever it takes to get a second star, having more than one seems to be the key to success. Boston and Miami traded for two.

draft day trade same as drafting that player.. same with dirk and tractor traylor.. draft day trade, swapping picks....

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:If Amare stayed healthy or we gave that money to a player who stayed healthy and highly productive then its a different conversation.

Or if we spent the $65 mil on the roster outside of Amare well, it would be another story. $65 mil is all most teams have to work with anyway

True, even so if Amare was healthy and the Shumpert draft pickwas a hit that turned into a play making borderline allstar at the guard position then we would have signed Amare & Tyson traded for Melo and drafted Shumpert for a pretty strong 4.