SJUknicksfan wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

SJUknicksfan wrote:I'm 22. Was a Melo supporter right up until a few weeks ago. I thought last season if he had a little more help on offense, we would've beat Indiana. This year it's clear, you just can't win with Melo as your best player.

How can you reconcile that thinking? Last season, Melo could have headed a Conference Finals team but this year "you can't win with Melo as your best player"? How does that work?

I said I "thought" as in past tense. Obviously I was wrong after what I'm seeing this year. Melo has more help on offense with Bargs and we are 3-13.

NardDogNation wrote:

SJUknicksfan wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

SJUknicksfan wrote:I'm 22. Was a Melo supporter right up until a few weeks ago. I thought last season if he had a little more help on offense, we would've beat Indiana. This year it's clear, you just can't win with Melo as your best player.

How can you reconcile that thinking? Last season, Melo could have headed a Conference Finals team but this year "you can't win with Melo as your best player"? How does that work?

I said I "thought" as in past tense. Obviously I was wrong after what I'm seeing this year. Melo has more help on offense with Bargs and we are 3-13.

But his supporting cast isn't exactly carrying their fair share of the responsibility. I mean, dudes are shooting in the 30% range.

NardDogNation wrote:

SJUknicksfan wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

SJUknicksfan wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

SJUknicksfan wrote:I'm 22. Was a Melo supporter right up until a few weeks ago. I thought last season if he had a little more help on offense, we would've beat Indiana. This year it's clear, you just can't win with Melo as your best player.

How can you reconcile that thinking? Last season, Melo could have headed a Conference Finals team but this year "you can't win with Melo as your best player"? How does that work?

I said I "thought" as in past tense. Obviously I was wrong after what I'm seeing this year. Melo has more help on offense with Bargs and we are 3-13.

But his supporting cast isn't exactly carrying their fair share of the responsibility. I mean, dudes are shooting in the 30% range.

I just am starting to think Melo's style of play is not good for team chemistry. He doesn't make his supporting cast better like other super stars do. I will admit this game he looks like the player I hope he can be.

Guys "making other guys better" is nonsense that the media and non-basketball types created. At the end of the day, Melo can't make shots for his teammates or make them better defenders or rebounders.

I disagree. Definitely think there are superstars who get the best out of their teammates. Attitude, defense, setting up teammates, hustle, all things Melo lacks that can make teammates better. When Melo played D last year, bought into the system, moved the ball, and was hustling, we were at our best last year.

SJUknicksfan wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

SJUknicksfan wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

SJUknicksfan wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

SJUknicksfan wrote:I'm 22. Was a Melo supporter right up until a few weeks ago. I thought last season if he had a little more help on offense, we would've beat Indiana. This year it's clear, you just can't win with Melo as your best player.

How can you reconcile that thinking? Last season, Melo could have headed a Conference Finals team but this year "you can't win with Melo as your best player"? How does that work?

I said I "thought" as in past tense. Obviously I was wrong after what I'm seeing this year. Melo has more help on offense with Bargs and we are 3-13.

But his supporting cast isn't exactly carrying their fair share of the responsibility. I mean, dudes are shooting in the 30% range.

I just am starting to think Melo's style of play is not good for team chemistry. He doesn't make his supporting cast better like other super stars do. I will admit this game he looks like the player I hope he can be.

Guys "making other guys better" is nonsense that the media and non-basketball types created. At the end of the day, Melo can't make shots for his teammates or make them better defenders or rebounders.

I disagree. Definitely think there are superstars who get the best out of their teammates. Attitude, defense, setting up teammates, hustle, all things Melo lacks that can make teammates better. When Melo played D last year, bought into the system, moved the ball, and was hustling, we were at our best last year.

Incidentally, our best overlapped with a bunch of dudes having career years or near career years. That had little to do with Melo (or any other star) and everything to do with the system and guys taking it upon themselves to be sharp from the start of the year. Again, dudes don't make other dudes better. If a guy can't shoot, no amount of daylight you can create for them will make them a shooter. If a guy can't play defense, no amount of hustling to cover his man off the breakdown will change that fact (see Steve "I'm the Worse Defensive Player of All-Time" Novak). The list goes on. The fact is that the Knicks don't have that impressive a roster outside of Melo.

NardDogNation wrote:

arkrud wrote:50
I was against the trade and never changed my opinion.
I like intelligent players with integrity and believe that the only watch-worthy bbal is team game with ball movement, defensive intensity, and offensive creativity and discipline. This what wins chips and make teams and players great.
Melo and the style of ball he and Knicks are playing now has nothing to do with all that.
Melo is a showman celebrity first and bbal player second. I like Miley Cyrus and Lady Gaga more.

Melo's won titles on every level but the NBA. I definitely think there is substance to his game but teammates matter and his teammates have sucked.

Substance it there... results are not any more...

arkrud wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

arkrud wrote:50
I was against the trade and never changed my opinion.
I like intelligent players with integrity and believe that the only watch-worthy bbal is team game with ball movement, defensive intensity, and offensive creativity and discipline. This what wins chips and make teams and players great.
Melo and the style of ball he and Knicks are playing now has nothing to do with all that.
Melo is a showman celebrity first and bbal player second. I like Miley Cyrus and Lady Gaga more.

Melo's won titles on every level but the NBA. I definitely think there is substance to his game but teammates matter and his teammates have sucked.

Substance it there... results are not any more...

If that's the case then he isn't the problem, as I've been stating.

very against the trade

Think Melo has talent but not the brains/IQ/ other qualities of a leader including leading consistently
We cannot build around Melo with the assets we traded away and I don't think he is worth a penny over 15m per year if he stays in NYK
I think he stats have always been inflated and used to manipulate his "status"

I am more PRO KNICKS than ANTI Melo, although I believe they = unless Melo takes a big pay cut

Only way for me to like Melo is IF he chooses to stay in NYK, while taking MUCH less than what another team would pay him (he can make up the money the following year with a 25m year at 3 years for all I care, if it allows us to basically build a team, and if he recruits ALL STAR's and good players to come over at discounts or steals

Will this happen? I doubt it, but hey, you never know....
I would say in the range of 12m, maybe even under to 8m with player option for years 2,3,4,5 so we can recruit more STARs that he needs, I am not sure if we still hold on to his bird rights, Hoping we would also get to somehow use to 5m MLE in 2016

Always preferred TEAM WORK, DEFENSIVE, BALL MOVEMENT, and HIGH IQ players, loved the 80s-90-99s Knicks, along with what Lin did, he was the underdog that did what Melo doesn't know how to do, LEAD AND MAKE PLAYERS AROUND HIM BETTER.....

NardDogNation wrote:

SJUknicksfan wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

SJUknicksfan wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

SJUknicksfan wrote:I'm 22. Was a Melo supporter right up until a few weeks ago. I thought last season if he had a little more help on offense, we would've beat Indiana. This year it's clear, you just can't win with Melo as your best player.

How can you reconcile that thinking? Last season, Melo could have headed a Conference Finals team but this year "you can't win with Melo as your best player"? How does that work?

I said I "thought" as in past tense. Obviously I was wrong after what I'm seeing this year. Melo has more help on offense with Bargs and we are 3-13.

But his supporting cast isn't exactly carrying their fair share of the responsibility. I mean, dudes are shooting in the 30% range.

I just am starting to think Melo's style of play is not good for team chemistry. He doesn't make his supporting cast better like other super stars do. I will admit this game he looks like the player I hope he can be.

Guys "making other guys better" is nonsense that the media and non-basketball types created. At the end of the day, Melo can't make shots for his teammates or make them better defenders or rebounders.

NOT attacking you NardDogNation
We are entitled to different opinions and I can accept and respect that if it goes both ways....

You can make your team mates better with many different ways, from creating mismatches to causing double/triple teams constantly
Almost all good PG's do it and many good C's as well, and that is why they are the 2 most important positions in the NBA to fill when building a team

OFFENSE
===========

basically you have to be able to create high % shots and/or hit high % shots, sometimes great players can do both, usually dominant double/triple threat players

Examples....

from penetrating/finishing, especially if you are willing and capapable of passing
Dominant Post up games, especially if you can pass
Overall SKILLs/Talents/Size/Athleticisim/LENGTH

pushing TEMPO, before defense can recover....

Mentally, BB IQ, ability understand how to break a team down on DEF/ receive and demand respect/ LEADERSHIP, *this was what Kidd" did for us last season despite all his horrible numbers

Sometimes a combination of size, versatility, unique skills for size *like Mark Jackson for PG, Dirk for PF, or Lebron as a SF/PF*, speed, athleticism, and deep range...

Sometimes it is the ability to get inside an opponents head, thus the trash talk back in the days, able to make the opponents lose FOCUS, to get them out of it and let anger take over

DEF/REBOUNDING
==================

by locking down certain opponents

or/and

giving great help DEF and still be able to defend their own man,

Examples of players in their in their primes, leaving out players like Oscar Robertson, try to do more late 80s/90s and later....

Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
David Robinson
Ewing

KG
Chris Webber

Magic Johnson
Pippen
Jordan

Barkley
Rasheed Wallace
Juwan Howard

Kidd
Nash
Stockton
Gary Payton
Mark Jackson
Mark Price

to a lower extent

Divac
Sabonis

Lamar Odom
Ben Wallace
Rodman
AK47

Current players in the league
=====================================

Lebron
Cp3
Paul George
Durant
The above are players that are very smart/HIGH IQ/ physically very talented besides Cp3, but his mental makes up for it as he is the best PG in the league by far now

D12

Westbrook
Harden

Westbrook/Harden do it differently, Harden is just a tough cover for any team with his ability to penetrate/finish, get fouled, collapse DEF by forcing double triple teams with ease
Westbrook, can do it with his defensive presence and with his ability to penetrate/finish, and both players have to learn how to play OFF the ball, but their games make's their team mates better

Lower extents with current players

Curry
Rubio
Wall
Lilliard

Lin even did it during Linsanity, while Melo, Amare, Chandler, could not do it together

Iggy
Battum
Marion *despite not being in his prime, still does it as what I call a glue player or/and fill up whatever is needed*

Aldridge
Kevin Love
Dirk
Pau Gasol

Roy Hibbert *DEFENSIVE/Shot BLocking BEAST and tough to defend with deep post position*
Marc Gasol
Noah
Tyson Chandler *his first 2 years as a Knick, especially when he had Jeffries to compliment him along with, Lin/Fields/Iman

Melo can be that type in here somewhere, but only for moments as he typically reverts back to his bad habits, poor decisions, and poor shot selection, forcing the issue, especially in the play offs where he wants to be the HERO