Vmart wrote:

MSG3 wrote:Problem is we are screwed if he leaves. We'll have a lot of cap space, but who do we build around? If we preserve cap space, we will have given away a sure lottery pick. What a mess. My preference in order from most to least is:

1) This team figures it out and makes a SMART move with Shumpert (I'm resigned to the fact he's as good as gone)
2) If the team struggles all year and gets bounced in the first round Melo still decides to stay and we build around him.
3) Trade Melo if he doesn't commit to staying and rebuild starting this coming off season. Hopefully we can get a lottery pick in return, but unless he opts in with the team he's traded to I don't think we'll be getting a lottery pick.
4) Melo walks, we have to rebuild, we learn another tough lesson by having given away an almost sure lottery pick in the original deal that brought him here.

It is what it is at this point. Just keeping Melo at a max out deal will guarantee the Knicks go no where. At this point does it really matter between making playoffs to get bounced and rebuilding towards something that will last, and result in something that might be more special.

There's always the possibility that Melo will opt out and take less money with the Knicks if they think they can bring along some other pieces. I think this is HIGHLY unlikely, but don't think it's out of the realm of possibility since he's already been on the record as wanting to win here in NY.

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'd rather trade him but I'm not gonna cry over Carmelo leaving us with $60 mil in cap space intact.

not only that, but we are not going to get back the same package we gave up.. I a team is willing or stupid enough to give us close to that, I would say do it tomorrow..

Some role players making combined Melo's salary, no thanks.

carmelo is a role player making max money.. who is a role player to you? it seems you don't have a clear grasp on who a star is... there are a lot of role players in the league who are allstar players or play on that level..

Let me ask you, was indiana a team of role players last year? and please don't mention paul george as being a star then, because only myself and a few others were calling him star talent last year...

you would not take the pacers team over having carmelo? really?

The Pacers are the one exception you like to use and its pretty warn out. George, West, and Hibbert are all-star players. They are not role players, and no reasonable basketball person considers Melo a role player.

exception.... every team doing well now has done so with players they drafted,smart trades, and FA signings.. we have done neither.. but the key is how they manipulated assets...

The knicks tried to follow another teams model but did so horribly...

you can't follow a model which pretty much requires you getting the best players in the league.. once they are gone, that model won't work!!

MSG3 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

MSG3 wrote:Problem is we are screwed if he leaves. We'll have a lot of cap space, but who do we build around? If we preserve cap space, we will have given away a sure lottery pick. What a mess. My preference in order from most to least is:

1) This team figures it out and makes a SMART move with Shumpert (I'm resigned to the fact he's as good as gone)
2) If the team struggles all year and gets bounced in the first round Melo still decides to stay and we build around him.
3) Trade Melo if he doesn't commit to staying and rebuild starting this coming off season. Hopefully we can get a lottery pick in return, but unless he opts in with the team he's traded to I don't think we'll be getting a lottery pick.
4) Melo walks, we have to rebuild, we learn another tough lesson by having given away an almost sure lottery pick in the original deal that brought him here.

It is what it is at this point. Just keeping Melo at a max out deal will guarantee the Knicks go no where. At this point does it really matter between making playoffs to get bounced and rebuilding towards something that will last, and result in something that might be more special.

There's always the possibility that Melo will opt out and take less money with the Knicks if they think they can bring along some other pieces. I think this is HIGHLY unlikely, but don't think it's out of the realm of possibility since he's already been on the record as wanting to win here in NY.

If Melo leaves NY his brand will take a hit and he will have even more pressure to win. If he goes to LA and doesn't win his brand takes another hit. Smart thing for him to do is resign with a plan to help the Knicks improve, which obviously involves taking less money. Maybe he won't do that, but i won't judge him on it until i see what happens. He brought respectable basketball back to NY last season so most fans appreciate that, lets see if he takes it a step further and takes less money to get support here.

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

MSG3 wrote:Problem is we are screwed if he leaves. We'll have a lot of cap space, but who do we build around? If we preserve cap space, we will have given away a sure lottery pick. What a mess. My preference in order from most to least is:

1) This team figures it out and makes a SMART move with Shumpert (I'm resigned to the fact he's as good as gone)
2) If the team struggles all year and gets bounced in the first round Melo still decides to stay and we build around him.
3) Trade Melo if he doesn't commit to staying and rebuild starting this coming off season. Hopefully we can get a lottery pick in return, but unless he opts in with the team he's traded to I don't think we'll be getting a lottery pick.
4) Melo walks, we have to rebuild, we learn another tough lesson by having given away an almost sure lottery pick in the original deal that brought him here.

It is what it is at this point. Just keeping Melo at a max out deal will guarantee the Knicks go no where. At this point does it really matter between making playoffs to get bounced and rebuilding towards something that will last, and result in something that might be more special.

There's always the possibility that Melo will opt out and take less money with the Knicks if they think they can bring along some other pieces. I think this is HIGHLY unlikely, but don't think it's out of the realm of possibility since he's already been on the record as wanting to win here in NY.

why would you believe that. he had a chance at coming to a stocked NY team and he blew that up...

ok, the season ends, knicks miss playoffs.. carmelo opts out.. now how do you guarantee him that you will bring along players to carry him to a ECF? you think the knicks will magically pull players out of a hat before he opts out?

the knicks need to cut ties.. if he opts out, the knicks need to pull a reverse carlos boozer, and tell him, we are moving in a different direction..thanks for your service...

tkf wrote:exception.... every team doing well now has done so with players they drafted,smart trades, and FA signings.. we have done neither.. but the key is how they manipulated assets...

If Melo doesn't want to be in NY, the Knicks absolutely need to get back assets. Think of Detroit getting back the likes of Ben Wallace, etc. when Grant Hill left.

For me Melo is a Robin type of player and also needs a strong coach and/or strong PG who controls ball and offense for him to be effective. Not too many players like that out there. Behind the scenes I would offer him somewhere in the $13/15M range starting in 2015 and see if he wants to stay while recruiting Rondo/Love/LeBron etc. If not, I would let him team know that the Knicks will give him whatever type of max contract extension in a S&T.

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

MSG3 wrote:Problem is we are screwed if he leaves. We'll have a lot of cap space, but who do we build around? If we preserve cap space, we will have given away a sure lottery pick. What a mess. My preference in order from most to least is:

1) This team figures it out and makes a SMART move with Shumpert (I'm resigned to the fact he's as good as gone)
2) If the team struggles all year and gets bounced in the first round Melo still decides to stay and we build around him.
3) Trade Melo if he doesn't commit to staying and rebuild starting this coming off season. Hopefully we can get a lottery pick in return, but unless he opts in with the team he's traded to I don't think we'll be getting a lottery pick.
4) Melo walks, we have to rebuild, we learn another tough lesson by having given away an almost sure lottery pick in the original deal that brought him here.

It is what it is at this point. Just keeping Melo at a max out deal will guarantee the Knicks go no where. At this point does it really matter between making playoffs to get bounced and rebuilding towards something that will last, and result in something that might be more special.

There's always the possibility that Melo will opt out and take less money with the Knicks if they think they can bring along some other pieces. I think this is HIGHLY unlikely, but don't think it's out of the realm of possibility since he's already been on the record as wanting to win here in NY.

why would you believe that. he had a chance at coming to a stocked NY team and he blew that up...

ok, the season ends, knicks miss playoffs.. carmelo opts out.. now how do you guarantee him that you will bring along players to carry him to a ECF? you think the knicks will magically pull players out of a hat before he opts out?

the knicks need to cut ties.. if he opts out, the knicks need to pull a reverse carlos boozer, and tell him, we are moving in a different direction..thanks for your service...

I made it clear that I think it's highly unlikely he takes less money. And I think if he stays the onus is going to be on him to help recruit. And maybe they don't sign anyone until he talks to some free agents and a few decide to sign here together. Just trying to look at all possibilities, positive and negative. I know you don't like Melo, but to say he's not a good guy to build around is something many people would disagree with.

many people don't disagree at all, just the one's on here who have been proven more wrong than right defending this dude..

why didn't carmelo recruit before? I can tell you why.. no one wants to play with this dude.. I am willing to put anything on that...

I look at all possibilities.. signing carmelo to any kind of extension is a huge negative.... time to move on.. you don't win titles building around breaking down and selfish 30 year old flawed max players.. never, ever happened.. Never ever will.. and i hate to say never, but history is completely on my side here...

has Melo been in a position to recruit while his team was way under cap? I can't think of a season like that while a Knicks player, don't know about Denver.

What about Chandler situation? Didn't he say he wanted to come to NY to play with Melo/Amare?

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

MSG3 wrote:Problem is we are screwed if he leaves. We'll have a lot of cap space, but who do we build around? If we preserve cap space, we will have given away a sure lottery pick. What a mess. My preference in order from most to least is:

1) This team figures it out and makes a SMART move with Shumpert (I'm resigned to the fact he's as good as gone)
2) If the team struggles all year and gets bounced in the first round Melo still decides to stay and we build around him.
3) Trade Melo if he doesn't commit to staying and rebuild starting this coming off season. Hopefully we can get a lottery pick in return, but unless he opts in with the team he's traded to I don't think we'll be getting a lottery pick.
4) Melo walks, we have to rebuild, we learn another tough lesson by having given away an almost sure lottery pick in the original deal that brought him here.

It is what it is at this point. Just keeping Melo at a max out deal will guarantee the Knicks go no where. At this point does it really matter between making playoffs to get bounced and rebuilding towards something that will last, and result in something that might be more special.

There's always the possibility that Melo will opt out and take less money with the Knicks if they think they can bring along some other pieces. I think this is HIGHLY unlikely, but don't think it's out of the realm of possibility since he's already been on the record as wanting to win here in NY.

why would you believe that. he had a chance at coming to a stocked NY team and he blew that up...

ok, the season ends, knicks miss playoffs.. carmelo opts out.. now how do you guarantee him that you will bring along players to carry him to a ECF? you think the knicks will magically pull players out of a hat before he opts out?

the knicks need to cut ties.. if he opts out, the knicks need to pull a reverse carlos boozer, and tell him, we are moving in a different direction..thanks for your service...

I made it clear that I think it's highly unlikely he takes less money. And I think if he stays the onus is going to be on him to help recruit. And maybe they don't sign anyone until he talks to some free agents and a few decide to sign here together. Just trying to look at all possibilities, positive and negative. I know you don't like Melo, but to say he's not a good guy to build around is something many people would disagree with.

many people don't disagree at all, just the one's on here who have been proven more wrong than right defending this dude..

why didn't carmelo recruit before? I can tell you why.. no one wants to play with this dude.. I am willing to put anything on that...

I look at all possibilities.. signing carmelo to any kind of extension is a huge negative.... time to move on.. you don't win titles building around breaking down and selfish 30 year old flawed max players.. never, ever happened.. Never ever will.. and i hate to say never, but history is completely on my side here...

has Melo been in a position to recruit while his team was way under cap? I can't think of a season like that while a Knicks player, don't know about Denver.

What about Chandler situation? Didn't he say he wanted to come to NY to play with Melo/Amare?

chandler came for 14 mil.. had we offered him 12, he would have been a golden state warrior..

why hasn't carmelo recruited in Denver?

Why hasn't anyone recruited carmelo to play with them?

look at this from another angle martin.. guys don't want to play with this dude..

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'd rather trade him but I'm not gonna cry over Carmelo leaving us with $60 mil in cap space intact.

not only that, but we are not going to get back the same package we gave up.. I a team is willing or stupid enough to give us close to that, I would say do it tomorrow..

Some role players making combined Melo's salary, no thanks.

carmelo is a role player making max money.. who is a role player to you? it seems you don't have a clear grasp on who a star is... there are a lot of role players in the league who are allstar players or play on that level..

Let me ask you, was indiana a team of role players last year? and please don't mention paul george as being a star then, because only myself and a few others were calling him star talent last year...

you would not take the pacers team over having carmelo? really?

The Pacers are the one exception you like to use and its pretty warn out. George, West, and Hibbert are all-star players. They are not role players, and no reasonable basketball person considers Melo a role player.

exception.... every team doing well now has done so with players they drafted,smart trades, and FA signings.. we have done neither.. but the key is how they manipulated assets...

The knicks tried to follow another teams model but did so horribly...

you can't follow a model which pretty much requires you getting the best players in the league.. once they are gone, that model won't work!!

But please reasonably explain how Melo is a role player. Are most role players top 10 HOF candidates? Just asking.

top 10 HOF candidates.. what the heck does that mean.. top 10 of all time? top 10 among role players, top 10 among guys born in the 80's.. top 10 of guys who names end in "elo"... lol.. such a random statement..

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'd rather trade him but I'm not gonna cry over Carmelo leaving us with $60 mil in cap space intact.

not only that, but we are not going to get back the same package we gave up.. I a team is willing or stupid enough to give us close to that, I would say do it tomorrow..

Some role players making combined Melo's salary, no thanks.

carmelo is a role player making max money.. who is a role player to you? it seems you don't have a clear grasp on who a star is... there are a lot of role players in the league who are allstar players or play on that level..

Let me ask you, was indiana a team of role players last year? and please don't mention paul george as being a star then, because only myself and a few others were calling him star talent last year...

you would not take the pacers team over having carmelo? really?

The Pacers are the one exception you like to use and its pretty warn out. George, West, and Hibbert are all-star players. They are not role players, and no reasonable basketball person considers Melo a role player.

exception.... every team doing well now has done so with players they drafted,smart trades, and FA signings.. we have done neither.. but the key is how they manipulated assets...

The knicks tried to follow another teams model but did so horribly...

you can't follow a model which pretty much requires you getting the best players in the league.. once they are gone, that model won't work!!

But please reasonably explain how Melo is a role player. Are most role players top 10 HOF candidates? Just asking.

top 10 HOF candidates.. what the heck does that mean.. top 10 of all time? top 10 among role players, top 10 among guys born in the 80's.. top 10 of guys who names end in "elo"... lol.. such a random statement..

BasketBall-Reference.com
Active Min 400 Games
Rank Player HoF Prob
1. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
2. Tim Duncan 0.9999
3. LeBron James 0.9995
4. Dwyane Wade 0.9990
5. Kevin Garnett 0.9990
6. Dirk Nowitzki 0.9865
7. Paul Pierce 0.9823
8. Ray Allen 0.9657
9. Chris Bosh 0.9466
10. Chris Paul 0.8937
11. Tony Parker 0.8324
12. Carmelo Anthony 0.8191
13. Dwight Howard 0.8082

Now please explain Melo the "role player".

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'd rather trade him but I'm not gonna cry over Carmelo leaving us with $60 mil in cap space intact.

not only that, but we are not going to get back the same package we gave up.. I a team is willing or stupid enough to give us close to that, I would say do it tomorrow..

Some role players making combined Melo's salary, no thanks.

carmelo is a role player making max money.. who is a role player to you? it seems you don't have a clear grasp on who a star is... there are a lot of role players in the league who are allstar players or play on that level..

Let me ask you, was indiana a team of role players last year? and please don't mention paul george as being a star then, because only myself and a few others were calling him star talent last year...

you would not take the pacers team over having carmelo? really?

The Pacers are the one exception you like to use and its pretty warn out. George, West, and Hibbert are all-star players. They are not role players, and no reasonable basketball person considers Melo a role player.

exception.... every team doing well now has done so with players they drafted,smart trades, and FA signings.. we have done neither.. but the key is how they manipulated assets...

The knicks tried to follow another teams model but did so horribly...

you can't follow a model which pretty much requires you getting the best players in the league.. once they are gone, that model won't work!!

But please reasonably explain how Melo is a role player. Are most role players top 10 HOF candidates? Just asking.

top 10 HOF candidates.. what the heck does that mean.. top 10 of all time? top 10 among role players, top 10 among guys born in the 80's.. top 10 of guys who names end in "elo"... lol.. such a random statement..

Pardon me, he's in the top 12 of active players for HOF probability.

BasketBall-Reference.com
Active Min 400 Games
Rank Player HoF Prob
1. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
2. Tim Duncan 0.9999
3. LeBron James 0.9995
4. Dwyane Wade 0.9990
5. Kevin Garnett 0.9990
6. Dirk Nowitzki 0.9865
7. Paul Pierce 0.9823
8. Ray Allen 0.9657
9. Chris Bosh 0.9466
10. Chris Paul 0.8937
11. Tony Parker 0.8324
12. Carmelo Anthony 0.8191
13. Dwight Howard 0.8082

Now please explain Melo the "role player".

jrodmc wrote:
BasketBall-Reference.com
Active Min 400 Games
Rank Player HoF Prob

4. Dwyane Wade 0.9990
5. Kevin Garnett 0.9990

7. Paul Pierce 0.9823
8. Ray Allen 0.9657
9. Chris Bosh 0.9466

12. Carmelo Anthony 0.8191

Now please explain Melo the "role player".

See above. Every guy above Melo has at least one chip as a "role player," second or even 3rd best option on a team, Pierce, Allen, and Bosh never had a chance of going after it alone. And he's trying to say that might be the only way Melo has any chance at getting one. Hell, I would put money on that being the truth.

Knixkik wrote:
So looking at the company he is in, are you telling me he is the one player that doesn't belong? How can that be?

BasketBall-Reference.com
Active Min 400 Games
Rank Player HoF Prob
1. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
2. Tim Duncan 0.9999
3. LeBron James 0.9995
4. Dwyane Wade 0.9990
5. Kevin Garnett 0.9990
6. Dirk Nowitzki 0.9865
7. Paul Pierce 0.9823
8. Ray Allen 0.9657
9. Chris Bosh 0.9466
10. Chris Paul 0.8937
11. Tony Parker 0.8324
12. Carmelo Anthony 0.8191
13. Dwight Howard 0.8082

Top 9 have rings, that is a major factor. No one will be putting Bosh above Paul and Parker, or probably Anthony, in the end. But dude has the hardware and 3 straight finals appearances without major injury and with consistent stellar play. Hence elevated position.