helloharv wrote:Lets say Melo does EVERYTHING people say he should --- rebound/pass/better shot selection --- WE STILL AREN'T A TITLE TEAM --- hell put Bron on our team and take off Melo ---- are we a championship team?

WELL IF lebron is on this team, that means we dont't have to face lebron, that along is huge... next, if we have lebron we probably don't need to worry about getting another "STAR". as he has proven he could get to the finals with less than allstar talent in cleveland.. I certainly would like to see him try it here, we would be a much better team for sure..

VCoug wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:I think Marc Gasol is a better fit for us than Kevin Love if we are truly intent on keeping Melo. I still think the best course of action during that offseason is to have let Melo go and pursue Rondo, Love and Marc Gasol. For all the hype of this being a new era that is oriented around perimeter talent, the best teams still have the best big men who score in the paint in a more conventional manner. Assuming none of those 3 have a drop off, I think a team with those guys could be real contenders.

I'd be down for that in a heartbeat. I'm getting excited just thinking about it even though I know there's virtually no chance of it happening.

We would need to start looking to trade our players now for draft picks in 2014 and 2015. Move Melo to the Lakers for Pau Gasol and picks. Tyson Chandler to the Clippers for DeAndre Jordan, Reggie Bullock, and picks. Flip Gasol and Felton to OKC for a package centered around Perkins and picks. Shumpert to either Houston or Golden State for spare parts and a couple of picks, whoever gives us the best deal. Shop Bargnani hard around the league and see if anyone's willing to give up anything of value for him (Milwaukee maybe?). We'll suck this year but we've done that before; tank next year for as high a lottery pick as possible; and then go to war the next season with Marc Gasol, Love, Rondo, our 2015 lottery pick and 3 point shooters at the 2 and 3.

I love me some Marc Gasol but I'm a it worried that by going after him, the Knicks will be continuing the trend of paying for players PAST production, after they've already peaked.

- He's 28 and by the time he's a FA he'll be 30 years old and looking for his last big contract. I would much rather pay for a player's peak years 25-30. You want to max out a guy who's coming off a rookie contract and has his best years ahead of him.

Young Tyson Chandler gives you an awesome 5 years. Post Mavs Chandler..health issues.
Young Amare beasted Tim Duncan. Amare on his 2nd big contract...Yikes

tkf wrote:
I keep hearing around here, that every star is a good fit with melo.. I mean to hell with being a good fit for the knicks.. LOL

I agree, both guys play PF, love is the better PF, and he would solve our rebounding problem, or at least part of it, but as you said, other problems will exist.. Like putting carmelo back at SF where he will have to guard guys he just can't..

as long as people keep trying to pair max contract players with carmelo, we will continue on this ugly treadmill

I say take an enema to the whole thing and start over..

The problem with starting over is we've traded away so many draft picks that tanking to rebuild isn't going to work.
That was the true cost of Bargnani.

It's going to take a really creative GM with complete autonomy to construct a long term plan to turn this team around.
Does that have a shot in hell with Dolan at the helm?

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

VCoug wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:I think Marc Gasol is a better fit for us than Kevin Love if we are truly intent on keeping Melo. I still think the best course of action during that offseason is to have let Melo go and pursue Rondo, Love and Marc Gasol. For all the hype of this being a new era that is oriented around perimeter talent, the best teams still have the best big men who score in the paint in a more conventional manner. Assuming none of those 3 have a drop off, I think a team with those guys could be real contenders.

I'd be down for that in a heartbeat. I'm getting excited just thinking about it even though I know there's virtually no chance of it happening.

We would need to start looking to trade our players now for draft picks in 2014 and 2015. Move Melo to the Lakers for Pau Gasol and picks. Tyson Chandler to the Clippers for DeAndre Jordan, Reggie Bullock, and picks. Flip Gasol and Felton to OKC for a package centered around Perkins and picks. Shumpert to either Houston or Golden State for spare parts and a couple of picks, whoever gives us the best deal. Shop Bargnani hard around the league and see if anyone's willing to give up anything of value for him (Milwaukee maybe?). We'll suck this year but we've done that before; tank next year for as high a lottery pick as possible; and then go to war the next season with Marc Gasol, Love, Rondo, our 2015 lottery pick and 3 point shooters at the 2 and 3.

I love me some Marc Gasol but I'm a it worried that by going after him, the Knicks will be continuing the trend of paying for players PAST production, after they've already peaked.

- He's 28 and by the time he's a FA he'll be 30 years old and looking for his last big contract. I would much rather pay for a player's peak years 25-30. You want to max out a guy who's coming off a rookie contract and has his best years ahead of him.

Young Tyson Chandler gives you an awesome 5 years. Post Mavs Chandler..health issues.
Young Amare beasted Tim Duncan. Amare on his 2nd big contract...Yikes

tkf wrote:
I keep hearing around here, that every star is a good fit with melo.. I mean to hell with being a good fit for the knicks.. LOL

I agree, both guys play PF, love is the better PF, and he would solve our rebounding problem, or at least part of it, but as you said, other problems will exist.. Like putting carmelo back at SF where he will have to guard guys he just can't..

as long as people keep trying to pair max contract players with carmelo, we will continue on this ugly treadmill

I say take an enema to the whole thing and start over..

The problem with starting over is we've traded away so many draft picks that tanking to rebuild isn't going to work.
That was the true cost of Bargnani.

It's going to take a really creative GM with complete autonomy to construct a long term plan to turn this team around.
Does that have a shot in hell with Dolan at the helm?

As would I but with restricted free agency that isn't a viable option; only way that happens is if we draft a guy like that.

VCoug wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

VCoug wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:I think Marc Gasol is a better fit for us than Kevin Love if we are truly intent on keeping Melo. I still think the best course of action during that offseason is to have let Melo go and pursue Rondo, Love and Marc Gasol. For all the hype of this being a new era that is oriented around perimeter talent, the best teams still have the best big men who score in the paint in a more conventional manner. Assuming none of those 3 have a drop off, I think a team with those guys could be real contenders.

I'd be down for that in a heartbeat. I'm getting excited just thinking about it even though I know there's virtually no chance of it happening.

We would need to start looking to trade our players now for draft picks in 2014 and 2015. Move Melo to the Lakers for Pau Gasol and picks. Tyson Chandler to the Clippers for DeAndre Jordan, Reggie Bullock, and picks. Flip Gasol and Felton to OKC for a package centered around Perkins and picks. Shumpert to either Houston or Golden State for spare parts and a couple of picks, whoever gives us the best deal. Shop Bargnani hard around the league and see if anyone's willing to give up anything of value for him (Milwaukee maybe?). We'll suck this year but we've done that before; tank next year for as high a lottery pick as possible; and then go to war the next season with Marc Gasol, Love, Rondo, our 2015 lottery pick and 3 point shooters at the 2 and 3.

I love me some Marc Gasol but I'm a it worried that by going after him, the Knicks will be continuing the trend of paying for players PAST production, after they've already peaked.

- He's 28 and by the time he's a FA he'll be 30 years old and looking for his last big contract. I would much rather pay for a player's peak years 25-30. You want to max out a guy who's coming off a rookie contract and has his best years ahead of him.

Young Tyson Chandler gives you an awesome 5 years. Post Mavs Chandler..health issues.
Young Amare beasted Tim Duncan. Amare on his 2nd big contract...Yikes

tkf wrote:
I keep hearing around here, that every star is a good fit with melo.. I mean to hell with being a good fit for the knicks.. LOL

I agree, both guys play PF, love is the better PF, and he would solve our rebounding problem, or at least part of it, but as you said, other problems will exist.. Like putting carmelo back at SF where he will have to guard guys he just can't..

as long as people keep trying to pair max contract players with carmelo, we will continue on this ugly treadmill

I say take an enema to the whole thing and start over..

The problem with starting over is we've traded away so many draft picks that tanking to rebuild isn't going to work.
That was the true cost of Bargnani.

It's going to take a really creative GM with complete autonomy to construct a long term plan to turn this team around.
Does that have a shot in hell with Dolan at the helm?

As would I but with restricted free agency that isn't a viable option; only way that happens is if we draft a guy like that.

Yeah teams are getting much smarter about locking up their young guys early by dangling the security of a multi year deal. Sometimes they get pretty damn good prices (Jrue Holiday, Dragic, Curry)

So it would seem the options left to teams are

a) build through the draft. give your young guys playing time so you can see if they're keepers. lock 'em up early.

b) pay for those players AFTER their 1st or 2nd big contracts. This option is ugly because it doesn't leave much upside. You either get exactly what you pay for or...the guy falls off because of age. Gasol is great but how much better is he going to get?

Melo is a good player but has he gotten noticeably better at anything since coming to NY?

Paul George has room to grow. So does Steph Curry. Kyrie Irving does if he decides to take defense seriously.

It just blows that for the Knicks option A is taken away because Dolan seems to think the team is thisclose to a championship every season so it's always worth mortgaging the future to win now.

The Bargnani move would have made sense for a team like OKC, the Spurs, the Pacers that could say they were a move or two away from championship contention. It makes no sense for a team like the Knicks especially in light of the fact that Toronto was DESPERATE to get rid of him.

If we landed Bargnani and either gave up no picks or simply just traded one bad contract for another, then he would be much more of a feel good story. As is, it's like paying $50,000 for a used Camry. No matter how good that car drives,w ell...

NardDogNation wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

VCoug wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:I think Marc Gasol is a better fit for us than Kevin Love if we are truly intent on keeping Melo. I still think the best course of action during that offseason is to have let Melo go and pursue Rondo, Love and Marc Gasol. For all the hype of this being a new era that is oriented around perimeter talent, the best teams still have the best big men who score in the paint in a more conventional manner. Assuming none of those 3 have a drop off, I think a team with those guys could be real contenders.

I'd be down for that in a heartbeat. I'm getting excited just thinking about it even though I know there's virtually no chance of it happening.

We would need to start looking to trade our players now for draft picks in 2014 and 2015. Move Melo to the Lakers for Pau Gasol and picks. Tyson Chandler to the Clippers for DeAndre Jordan, Reggie Bullock, and picks. Flip Gasol and Felton to OKC for a package centered around Perkins and picks. Shumpert to either Houston or Golden State for spare parts and a couple of picks, whoever gives us the best deal. Shop Bargnani hard around the league and see if anyone's willing to give up anything of value for him (Milwaukee maybe?). We'll suck this year but we've done that before; tank next year for as high a lottery pick as possible; and then go to war the next season with Marc Gasol, Love, Rondo, our 2015 lottery pick and 3 point shooters at the 2 and 3.

I love me some Marc Gasol but I'm a it worried that by going after him, the Knicks will be continuing the trend of paying for players PAST production, after they've already peaked.

- He's 28 and by the time he's a FA he'll be 30 years old and looking for his last big contract. I would much rather pay for a player's peak years 25-30. You want to max out a guy who's coming off a rookie contract and has his best years ahead of him.

Young Tyson Chandler gives you an awesome 5 years. Post Mavs Chandler..health issues.
Young Amare beasted Tim Duncan. Amare on his 2nd big contract...Yikes

tkf wrote:
I keep hearing around here, that every star is a good fit with melo.. I mean to hell with being a good fit for the knicks.. LOL

I agree, both guys play PF, love is the better PF, and he would solve our rebounding problem, or at least part of it, but as you said, other problems will exist.. Like putting carmelo back at SF where he will have to guard guys he just can't..

as long as people keep trying to pair max contract players with carmelo, we will continue on this ugly treadmill

I say take an enema to the whole thing and start over..

The problem with starting over is we've traded away so many draft picks that tanking to rebuild isn't going to work.
That was the true cost of Bargnani.

It's going to take a really creative GM with complete autonomy to construct a long term plan to turn this team around.
Does that have a shot in hell with Dolan at the helm?

Gasol has an old man's game, so the loss of his athleticism would not effect him nearly as much as it would a perimeter player or someone that relies on their physicality to be effective. I could easily see Marc playing until he is approaching his 40's ala Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, etc. If we frontload his contract, I think it'd work ideally for all parties involved.

I don't hate the move I guess. I just have this premonition that somehow the Knicks will screw things up.

NardDogNation wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

VCoug wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:I think Marc Gasol is a better fit for us than Kevin Love if we are truly intent on keeping Melo. I still think the best course of action during that offseason is to have let Melo go and pursue Rondo, Love and Marc Gasol. For all the hype of this being a new era that is oriented around perimeter talent, the best teams still have the best big men who score in the paint in a more conventional manner. Assuming none of those 3 have a drop off, I think a team with those guys could be real contenders.

I'd be down for that in a heartbeat. I'm getting excited just thinking about it even though I know there's virtually no chance of it happening.

We would need to start looking to trade our players now for draft picks in 2014 and 2015. Move Melo to the Lakers for Pau Gasol and picks. Tyson Chandler to the Clippers for DeAndre Jordan, Reggie Bullock, and picks. Flip Gasol and Felton to OKC for a package centered around Perkins and picks. Shumpert to either Houston or Golden State for spare parts and a couple of picks, whoever gives us the best deal. Shop Bargnani hard around the league and see if anyone's willing to give up anything of value for him (Milwaukee maybe?). We'll suck this year but we've done that before; tank next year for as high a lottery pick as possible; and then go to war the next season with Marc Gasol, Love, Rondo, our 2015 lottery pick and 3 point shooters at the 2 and 3.

I love me some Marc Gasol but I'm a it worried that by going after him, the Knicks will be continuing the trend of paying for players PAST production, after they've already peaked.

- He's 28 and by the time he's a FA he'll be 30 years old and looking for his last big contract. I would much rather pay for a player's peak years 25-30. You want to max out a guy who's coming off a rookie contract and has his best years ahead of him.

Young Tyson Chandler gives you an awesome 5 years. Post Mavs Chandler..health issues.
Young Amare beasted Tim Duncan. Amare on his 2nd big contract...Yikes

tkf wrote:
I keep hearing around here, that every star is a good fit with melo.. I mean to hell with being a good fit for the knicks.. LOL

I agree, both guys play PF, love is the better PF, and he would solve our rebounding problem, or at least part of it, but as you said, other problems will exist.. Like putting carmelo back at SF where he will have to guard guys he just can't..

as long as people keep trying to pair max contract players with carmelo, we will continue on this ugly treadmill

I say take an enema to the whole thing and start over..

The problem with starting over is we've traded away so many draft picks that tanking to rebuild isn't going to work.
That was the true cost of Bargnani.

It's going to take a really creative GM with complete autonomy to construct a long term plan to turn this team around.
Does that have a shot in hell with Dolan at the helm?

Gasol has an old man's game, so the loss of his athleticism would not effect him nearly as much as it would a perimeter player or someone that relies on their physicality to be effective. I could easily see Marc playing until he is approaching his 40's ala Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, etc. If we frontload his contract, I think it'd work ideally for all parties involved.

I don't hate the move I guess. I just have this premonition that somehow the Knicks will screw things up.

Its probably because we haven't done anything right since the Mark Jackson draft,lol.

Bright spots (that didn't really mean much cuz the rest of management decisions were so colossally bad)

- drafting Gallo (yes over Brook Lopez, Hibbert, Ibaka, Batum but still..he wasn't a bust!)
Chandler at 23
DLee at 30
Ariza at 43

- Signing Jeremy Lin after Golden State, Houston cut him

- Getting JR Smith for peanuts

- 54 wins baby!

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

VCoug wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:I think Marc Gasol is a better fit for us than Kevin Love if we are truly intent on keeping Melo. I still think the best course of action during that offseason is to have let Melo go and pursue Rondo, Love and Marc Gasol. For all the hype of this being a new era that is oriented around perimeter talent, the best teams still have the best big men who score in the paint in a more conventional manner. Assuming none of those 3 have a drop off, I think a team with those guys could be real contenders.

I'd be down for that in a heartbeat. I'm getting excited just thinking about it even though I know there's virtually no chance of it happening.

We would need to start looking to trade our players now for draft picks in 2014 and 2015. Move Melo to the Lakers for Pau Gasol and picks. Tyson Chandler to the Clippers for DeAndre Jordan, Reggie Bullock, and picks. Flip Gasol and Felton to OKC for a package centered around Perkins and picks. Shumpert to either Houston or Golden State for spare parts and a couple of picks, whoever gives us the best deal. Shop Bargnani hard around the league and see if anyone's willing to give up anything of value for him (Milwaukee maybe?). We'll suck this year but we've done that before; tank next year for as high a lottery pick as possible; and then go to war the next season with Marc Gasol, Love, Rondo, our 2015 lottery pick and 3 point shooters at the 2 and 3.

I love me some Marc Gasol but I'm a it worried that by going after him, the Knicks will be continuing the trend of paying for players PAST production, after they've already peaked.

- He's 28 and by the time he's a FA he'll be 30 years old and looking for his last big contract. I would much rather pay for a player's peak years 25-30. You want to max out a guy who's coming off a rookie contract and has his best years ahead of him.

Young Tyson Chandler gives you an awesome 5 years. Post Mavs Chandler..health issues.
Young Amare beasted Tim Duncan. Amare on his 2nd big contract...Yikes

tkf wrote:
I keep hearing around here, that every star is a good fit with melo.. I mean to hell with being a good fit for the knicks.. LOL

I agree, both guys play PF, love is the better PF, and he would solve our rebounding problem, or at least part of it, but as you said, other problems will exist.. Like putting carmelo back at SF where he will have to guard guys he just can't..

as long as people keep trying to pair max contract players with carmelo, we will continue on this ugly treadmill

I say take an enema to the whole thing and start over..

The problem with starting over is we've traded away so many draft picks that tanking to rebuild isn't going to work.
That was the true cost of Bargnani.

It's going to take a really creative GM with complete autonomy to construct a long term plan to turn this team around.
Does that have a shot in hell with Dolan at the helm?

Gasol has an old man's game, so the loss of his athleticism would not effect him nearly as much as it would a perimeter player or someone that relies on their physicality to be effective. I could easily see Marc playing until he is approaching his 40's ala Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, etc. If we frontload his contract, I think it'd work ideally for all parties involved.

I don't hate the move I guess. I just have this premonition that somehow the Knicks will screw things up.

Its probably because we haven't done anything right since the Mark Jackson draft,lol.

Bright spots (that didn't really mean much cuz the rest of management decisions were so colossally bad)

- drafting Gallo (yes over Brook Lopez, Hibbert, Ibaka, Batum but still..he wasn't a bust!)
Chandler at 23
DLee at 30
Ariza at 43

- Signing Jeremy Lin after Golden State, Houston cut him

- Getting JR Smith for peanuts

- 54 wins baby!

I get what you're saying but it's hard to overlook the glaring screwups we've made during that timespan. Even the good is tempered by the fact that better moves could've been made e.g. Marc Gasol instead of Wilson Chandler during the '07 draft. It's been such a long time since I've felt confident in the abilities of our front office to do the right thing on a consistent basis.