Knixkik wrote:

RonRon wrote:trading earlier and admitting we made way too many mistakes since the deal for Melo, and retool with youth, assets, and CAP SPACE for 2015 FA class
The more we lose, the more lowballs we will get, unfortunately, we don't own this summer's draft pick...

in other words, Briggs does not see us stopping the bleeding with our lack of talent, and horrible coach with philosophies and lineups that don't work, but continues to be stubborn with it, lacking creativity and an actual system on both DEF and OFF

resigning Melo to a 20-30m contract will cost us another 10 years that he already cost us with the moves to get him, and the moves we were forced to overpay for since we were in "win now mode" with lack of flexibility and assets to offer

if we just let Walsh do his job, he would have just stayed patient, and sign players to trade, and collect/trade for assets, till the right deal came along which could have been

Cp3
Harden
D12

With no asset's and cap space, we have no shot at those players or future stars

Look at those players and what they were traded for, besides Ewing, NO OTHER TRADE is comparable, taking back 40-50m in salary for 1 player while rest are SCRUBs
Dolan couldn't resist the charm for Melo but now Melo is getting on his nerves talking about a contract while doing going as far as Gallo/Chandler and a FA that we could have signed with Curry's expiring could have got us the same result or better the past couple of years....

I don't understand why people think we had the assets to get CP3, Harden, or Dwight. Look at the players and major picks dealt in those deals. The only reason we got Melo was because he strong-armed his way here. Had he not done that and accepted a trade anywhere, he would have been traded to brooklyn for their package which appealed to Denver much more then our's. We had no high picks to trade, and while teams like Gallo and Chandler, they were not viewed as future stars by most teams.

Felton was traded for a 1st round pick and Andre Miller

Gallo and Wilson Chandler could have gotten us at least a 1st rounder EACH

AR could have gotten us a 2nd rounder
Mogov could have gotten us a 2nd rounder
Eddy Curry (expiring) could have landed us something
Even TD, who had a career year in 3pt shooting could have landed us a pick

in addition to the 2 GS 2nd round picks, that was predicted high 2nd round picks
1 swap and 1 1st rounder and 60 million in salary saved for Denver

Now look back at what those players were traded for, it didn't come with 40m of crap salary so you cannot build a team with cap space

Eddy Curry
they can choose between Gallo or Wilson Chandler
1st round pick, 1 swap

We are still missing that SF on our roster that a MINI MLE cannot even buy

RonRon wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

RonRon wrote:trading earlier and admitting we made way too many mistakes since the deal for Melo, and retool with youth, assets, and CAP SPACE for 2015 FA class
The more we lose, the more lowballs we will get, unfortunately, we don't own this summer's draft pick...

in other words, Briggs does not see us stopping the bleeding with our lack of talent, and horrible coach with philosophies and lineups that don't work, but continues to be stubborn with it, lacking creativity and an actual system on both DEF and OFF

resigning Melo to a 20-30m contract will cost us another 10 years that he already cost us with the moves to get him, and the moves we were forced to overpay for since we were in "win now mode" with lack of flexibility and assets to offer

if we just let Walsh do his job, he would have just stayed patient, and sign players to trade, and collect/trade for assets, till the right deal came along which could have been

Cp3
Harden
D12

With no asset's and cap space, we have no shot at those players or future stars

Look at those players and what they were traded for, besides Ewing, NO OTHER TRADE is comparable, taking back 40-50m in salary for 1 player while rest are SCRUBs
Dolan couldn't resist the charm for Melo but now Melo is getting on his nerves talking about a contract while doing going as far as Gallo/Chandler and a FA that we could have signed with Curry's expiring could have got us the same result or better the past couple of years....

I don't understand why people think we had the assets to get CP3, Harden, or Dwight. Look at the players and major picks dealt in those deals. The only reason we got Melo was because he strong-armed his way here. Had he not done that and accepted a trade anywhere, he would have been traded to brooklyn for their package which appealed to Denver much more then our's. We had no high picks to trade, and while teams like Gallo and Chandler, they were not viewed as future stars by most teams.

Felton was traded for a 1st round pick and Andre Miller

Gallo and Wilson Chandler could have gotten us at least a 1st rounder EACH

AR could have gotten us a 2nd rounder
Mogov could have gotten us a 2nd rounder
Eddy Curry (expiring) could have landed us something
Even TD, who had a career year in 3pt shooting could have landed us a pick

in addition to the 2 GS 2nd round picks, that was predicted high 2nd round picks
1 swap and 1 1st rounder and 60 million in salary saved for Denver

Now look back at what those players were traded for, it didn't come with 40m of crap salary so you cannot build a team with cap space

So trade our players we drafted during our rebuilding process for more draft picks so we can start the rebuilding process again? Sounds like a really annoying cycle. At what point do you actually try and win? What happens after those draft picks play in the league for 3-4 years, do we try to trade them again for more draft picks? I don't get the logic.

Knixkik wrote:

RonRon wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

RonRon wrote:trading earlier and admitting we made way too many mistakes since the deal for Melo, and retool with youth, assets, and CAP SPACE for 2015 FA class
The more we lose, the more lowballs we will get, unfortunately, we don't own this summer's draft pick...

in other words, Briggs does not see us stopping the bleeding with our lack of talent, and horrible coach with philosophies and lineups that don't work, but continues to be stubborn with it, lacking creativity and an actual system on both DEF and OFF

resigning Melo to a 20-30m contract will cost us another 10 years that he already cost us with the moves to get him, and the moves we were forced to overpay for since we were in "win now mode" with lack of flexibility and assets to offer

if we just let Walsh do his job, he would have just stayed patient, and sign players to trade, and collect/trade for assets, till the right deal came along which could have been

Cp3
Harden
D12

With no asset's and cap space, we have no shot at those players or future stars

Look at those players and what they were traded for, besides Ewing, NO OTHER TRADE is comparable, taking back 40-50m in salary for 1 player while rest are SCRUBs
Dolan couldn't resist the charm for Melo but now Melo is getting on his nerves talking about a contract while doing going as far as Gallo/Chandler and a FA that we could have signed with Curry's expiring could have got us the same result or better the past couple of years....

I don't understand why people think we had the assets to get CP3, Harden, or Dwight. Look at the players and major picks dealt in those deals. The only reason we got Melo was because he strong-armed his way here. Had he not done that and accepted a trade anywhere, he would have been traded to brooklyn for their package which appealed to Denver much more then our's. We had no high picks to trade, and while teams like Gallo and Chandler, they were not viewed as future stars by most teams.

Felton was traded for a 1st round pick and Andre Miller

Gallo and Wilson Chandler could have gotten us at least a 1st rounder EACH

AR could have gotten us a 2nd rounder
Mogov could have gotten us a 2nd rounder
Eddy Curry (expiring) could have landed us something
Even TD, who had a career year in 3pt shooting could have landed us a pick

in addition to the 2 GS 2nd round picks, that was predicted high 2nd round picks
1 swap and 1 1st rounder and 60 million in salary saved for Denver

Now look back at what those players were traded for, it didn't come with 40m of crap salary so you cannot build a team with cap space

So trade our players we drafted during our rebuilding process for more draft picks so we can start the rebuilding process again? Sounds like a really annoying cycle. At what point do you actually try and win? What happens after those draft picks play in the league for 3-4 years, do we try to trade them again for more draft picks? I don't get the logic.

RonRon wrote:

misterearl wrote:RonRon - Walsh is gone.

Revising history is not an option

Nor are any of Briggs ridiculous trade proposals.

Do you have an idea that a negotiating partner from another franchise would agree to?

Or do you start by making the difficult INTERNAL decisions?

ie Medical amnesty for Stoudemire, move any player not functioning at 100 per cent physical capacity and immediately cutting Chris Smith, for starters.

You know what is RIDICULOUS

How about let your play do the talking and get us to the Eastern Conference Finals before and talking in the end of the season....

Melo talking about his next contract to opt out when we traded half a team for him, in which we are still paying for, and had to continue to overpay for talents because we were forced to once we had limited assets

We tried to built around him and made him the alpha so Melo can be the HERO that doesn't save the day, us getting lucky to let Lin drop to us and lose him for NOTHING

So he wanted that extra year so he can opt out, instead of just signing with us, and we would have the assets to actually build a team, around him, with the financial flexibility
Had he said, " I AM NOT SIGNING AN EXTENSION WITH ANYONE EXCEPT NY, we wouldn't have to trade half a team for him and DW would taken back all those garbage contracts with all the assets and expirings

Instead, Dolan comes in the middle of the trade discussion and believes Melo could be our savior and now he is going to get screwed by him AGAIN

Melo flourished with the same role Dantoni wanted him to play as a Knick but with much more talented players in TEAM USA
But we are unable to get those type of players because we overpaid for Melo's "security" so he can opt out of it
Melo was strictly a scorer that played OFF THE BALL in team USA, but in NY the glory that Lin had as he was trying to get W's, wanting others to play off him so he can get more stats to justify his contract instead of getting W's

His big black book, includes James Flight and Chris Smith, so he can get paid 30m a year and complain that there isn't enough talent around him, I am sick of the excuses...

yea, I agree 100%,carmelo is selfish. plain and simple... he wanted the extra year, the extra money, etc... let is be known, I am not a fan of his at all, I rather not have him under any circumstances.. but if we had to get him, imagine having guys like gallo, chandler, etc instead of the misifits like JR smith we have now.. and don't forget we would still have our picks and cap space... I blame him and dolan for this mess, and they both deserve each other...

Under dantoni, with lin, we sort of got a mulligan. and carmelo didn't like that either. It was his way or the highway. so we lose both lin and Dantoni. I think carmelo could have benefited under dantoni, who if anything knows how to maximize limited players offensive abilities.. carmelo is a good scorer, but limited all around player... Dantoni could have maximized his effectiveness.. and that may not have meant carmelo taking 22 shots to get 28 points.. it may have meant 16 shots to get 25ppg, but it would have been more efficient, within the flow of the offense and much easier looks for him and his teamates.. but again, that didn't fit carmelo's agenda..

just sad

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

RonRon wrote:trading earlier and admitting we made way too many mistakes since the deal for Melo, and retool with youth, assets, and CAP SPACE for 2015 FA class
The more we lose, the more lowballs we will get, unfortunately, we don't own this summer's draft pick...

in other words, Briggs does not see us stopping the bleeding with our lack of talent, and horrible coach with philosophies and lineups that don't work, but continues to be stubborn with it, lacking creativity and an actual system on both DEF and OFF

resigning Melo to a 20-30m contract will cost us another 10 years that he already cost us with the moves to get him, and the moves we were forced to overpay for since we were in "win now mode" with lack of flexibility and assets to offer

if we just let Walsh do his job, he would have just stayed patient, and sign players to trade, and collect/trade for assets, till the right deal came along which could have been

Cp3
Harden
D12

With no asset's and cap space, we have no shot at those players or future stars

Look at those players and what they were traded for, besides Ewing, NO OTHER TRADE is comparable, taking back 40-50m in salary for 1 player while rest are SCRUBs
Dolan couldn't resist the charm for Melo but now Melo is getting on his nerves talking about a contract while doing going as far as Gallo/Chandler and a FA that we could have signed with Curry's expiring could have got us the same result or better the past couple of years....

there are so many articles out there that highlighted how Walsh didn't not want to do this carmelo deal at this price...

Mike lupica made a great point. Knicks were in the drivers seat, we should have been able to make this deal with chandler, curry and his fat expiring and a couple of throw ins... instead we give up the farm... but whatever....

Knicks were not in the driver's seat if they really wanted Melo. Brooklyn was willing to take him without insurance of a new contract, which ultimately he made it clear he would have signed with them if he had no choice. Not making the deal is one thing, but saying we should have just given them less was not possible.

thats fine, if carmelo really wanted to come here and brooklyn wanted to risk the trade, we could have still had him... here is how it works..

Carmelo: I don't want to go to brooklyn
Denver: we are trading you there anyway..
carmelo: Ok

trade is made, he plays out the season and now it is over

carmelo to the nets: peace, I'm out!!

Knicks: Thanks nets....

Other scenario

Carmelo: I don't want to go to brooklyn
Denver: we are trading you there
Carmelo: Ok..

Carmelo being the greedy prick he is signs extension in NY..

Cool, good for the knicks..

Walsh: Ok, I hear CP3 and Dwight may be in play.. Lets start looking at how we can get in on that.. we have young assets, picks and cap space...

As I said, knicks were in the Drivers seat.. they didn't have to get carmelo, they had other options had they been patient.. which is what walsh was..

If carmelo really, really wanted to be here and win, he could have said, I won't sign an extension anywhere else... The end..

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

RonRon wrote:trading earlier and admitting we made way too many mistakes since the deal for Melo, and retool with youth, assets, and CAP SPACE for 2015 FA class
The more we lose, the more lowballs we will get, unfortunately, we don't own this summer's draft pick...

in other words, Briggs does not see us stopping the bleeding with our lack of talent, and horrible coach with philosophies and lineups that don't work, but continues to be stubborn with it, lacking creativity and an actual system on both DEF and OFF

resigning Melo to a 20-30m contract will cost us another 10 years that he already cost us with the moves to get him, and the moves we were forced to overpay for since we were in "win now mode" with lack of flexibility and assets to offer

if we just let Walsh do his job, he would have just stayed patient, and sign players to trade, and collect/trade for assets, till the right deal came along which could have been

Cp3
Harden
D12

With no asset's and cap space, we have no shot at those players or future stars

Look at those players and what they were traded for, besides Ewing, NO OTHER TRADE is comparable, taking back 40-50m in salary for 1 player while rest are SCRUBs
Dolan couldn't resist the charm for Melo but now Melo is getting on his nerves talking about a contract while doing going as far as Gallo/Chandler and a FA that we could have signed with Curry's expiring could have got us the same result or better the past couple of years....

there are so many articles out there that highlighted how Walsh didn't not want to do this carmelo deal at this price...

Mike lupica made a great point. Knicks were in the drivers seat, we should have been able to make this deal with chandler, curry and his fat expiring and a couple of throw ins... instead we give up the farm... but whatever....

Knicks were not in the driver's seat if they really wanted Melo. Brooklyn was willing to take him without insurance of a new contract, which ultimately he made it clear he would have signed with them if he had no choice. Not making the deal is one thing, but saying we should have just given them less was not possible.

thats fine, if carmelo really wanted to come here and brooklyn wanted to risk the trade, we could have still had him... here is how it works..

Carmelo: I don't want to go to brooklyn
Denver: we are trading you there anyway..
carmelo: Ok

trade is made, he plays out the season and now it is over

carmelo to the nets: peace, I'm out!!

Knicks: Thanks nets....

Other scenario

Carmelo: I don't want to go to brooklyn
Denver: we are trading you there
Carmelo: Ok..

Carmelo being the greedy prick he is signs extension in NY..

Cool, good for the knicks..

Walsh: Ok, I hear CP3 and Dwight may be in play.. Lets start looking at how we can get in on that.. we have young assets, picks and cap space...

As I said, knicks were in the Drivers seat.. they didn't have to get carmelo, they had other options had they been patient.. which is what walsh was..

If carmelo really, really wanted to be here and win, he could have said, I won't sign an extension anywhere else... The end..

Not arguing Melo was selfish, however, i have never been in position to make that amount of money, so i can't say i wouldn't do the same if i knew i could get where i want and get the money i wanted. It's his right to be selfish in that case. This next contract will really tell us what we need to know.

RonRon wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

RonRon wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

RonRon wrote:trading earlier and admitting we made way too many mistakes since the deal for Melo, and retool with youth, assets, and CAP SPACE for 2015 FA class
The more we lose, the more lowballs we will get, unfortunately, we don't own this summer's draft pick...

in other words, Briggs does not see us stopping the bleeding with our lack of talent, and horrible coach with philosophies and lineups that don't work, but continues to be stubborn with it, lacking creativity and an actual system on both DEF and OFF

resigning Melo to a 20-30m contract will cost us another 10 years that he already cost us with the moves to get him, and the moves we were forced to overpay for since we were in "win now mode" with lack of flexibility and assets to offer

if we just let Walsh do his job, he would have just stayed patient, and sign players to trade, and collect/trade for assets, till the right deal came along which could have been

Cp3
Harden
D12

With no asset's and cap space, we have no shot at those players or future stars

Look at those players and what they were traded for, besides Ewing, NO OTHER TRADE is comparable, taking back 40-50m in salary for 1 player while rest are SCRUBs
Dolan couldn't resist the charm for Melo but now Melo is getting on his nerves talking about a contract while doing going as far as Gallo/Chandler and a FA that we could have signed with Curry's expiring could have got us the same result or better the past couple of years....

I don't understand why people think we had the assets to get CP3, Harden, or Dwight. Look at the players and major picks dealt in those deals. The only reason we got Melo was because he strong-armed his way here. Had he not done that and accepted a trade anywhere, he would have been traded to brooklyn for their package which appealed to Denver much more then our's. We had no high picks to trade, and while teams like Gallo and Chandler, they were not viewed as future stars by most teams.

Felton was traded for a 1st round pick and Andre Miller

Gallo and Wilson Chandler could have gotten us at least a 1st rounder EACH

AR could have gotten us a 2nd rounder
Mogov could have gotten us a 2nd rounder
Eddy Curry (expiring) could have landed us something
Even TD, who had a career year in 3pt shooting could have landed us a pick

in addition to the 2 GS 2nd round picks, that was predicted high 2nd round picks
1 swap and 1 1st rounder and 60 million in salary saved for Denver

Now look back at what those players were traded for, it didn't come with 40m of crap salary so you cannot build a team with cap space

So trade our players we drafted during our rebuilding process for more draft picks so we can start the rebuilding process again? Sounds like a really annoying cycle. At what point do you actually try and win? What happens after those draft picks play in the league for 3-4 years, do we try to trade them again for more draft picks? I don't get the logic.

You don't always trade them away. You decide which pieces are worth keeping and which aren't.
It couldn't be a worse cycle than Dolan's starphucking has been.

Rotating Assets is very important and keeping salary to sign STEALS that would become assets in possible trades and deals that are not long term if NOT
WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT, once you get that 1st tier ALL STAR in Harden, getting D12 or another All Star caliber player is easy, with a core of young role players
While for G/F's they used the minimum to fill in the blanks for rotation for 3pt shooters/defenders, the easiest spot the fill in the NBA and cost efficient....

So what did Houston do prior to getting Harden and then Dwight, in addition to the PG's and SG/SF's they recycled from

Looking back in their recent history

Trading Tmac's expiring for....
taking Jordan Hill, a 1st round pick, and a swap, for taking 1 year of Jared Jeffries, in which they traded Jordan Hill for another 1st round pick to the Lakers

Lowry/Dragic/Aaron Brooks

trading Ariza, Budinger, Kevin Martin, Courtney Lee, and then keeping Parsons as he was the youngest with the most upside and versatility

Samuel Dalembert

trading Camby/Lee and whatever for multiple 2nd rounders

When you have asset's all teams and the league will be willing to trade with you because you have what they want, especially with expirings, we gave all of that away and took back 40m of garbage salaries that hinders us to build a team under the CBA

They signed Lin and Asik with cap space and they are assets despite their salaries
Both are young and will have a role on any team, as they will continue to get better and develop, and are at least quality role players
Especially with Asik and despite their salaries, they are only slightly over paid at 8m per year at a reasonable length

So YES, recycling, trading, and signing short term deals without overpaying for talent is very important in BUILDING a CONTENDING TEAM with patience
It was only 2 years ago when no one thought Houston would be able to draw ALL STAR talent level players once Tmac and Yao past their prime

These were the same things Donnie Walsh was trying to do, be patient and COLLECT assets, and sign players that will gain value
Draft players that are HARD WORKERS on and off the court with 4 years of college for maturity over plain physical talent like Brandon Jennings/Lance Stephonson
Building a team without ego's and are able to both score, defend, and with chemistry that were coachable

The problem with recycle picks and players you draft is eventually to run into the scenario where you must pay some of those players or possibly lose them for nothing. Look at Denver and Utah for example after dealing Melo and DWill. Denver had to pay Gallo and Chandler and have other players making large contracts who are good but not great players. They have no cap space, no up and comers on rookie contracts other than possibly Faried and really no way to take the extra step. Utah will have to overpay Gordon Hayward this summer or lose him for nothing, and will run into that problem with some other players soon. Do you really want to be put in that situation? Its better to overpay all-stars then give market value to good role players and get stuck as a middle of the road team for the duration of those contracts. Not saying we did it the best way, but i would rather go all-in then be stuck in that position. At least our franchise has managed contracts to expire at the same time with potential to try again. We have 2015 with a great chance to improve.

gunsnewing wrote:

RonRon wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

RonRon wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

RonRon wrote:trading earlier and admitting we made way too many mistakes since the deal for Melo, and retool with youth, assets, and CAP SPACE for 2015 FA class
The more we lose, the more lowballs we will get, unfortunately, we don't own this summer's draft pick...

in other words, Briggs does not see us stopping the bleeding with our lack of talent, and horrible coach with philosophies and lineups that don't work, but continues to be stubborn with it, lacking creativity and an actual system on both DEF and OFF

resigning Melo to a 20-30m contract will cost us another 10 years that he already cost us with the moves to get him, and the moves we were forced to overpay for since we were in "win now mode" with lack of flexibility and assets to offer

if we just let Walsh do his job, he would have just stayed patient, and sign players to trade, and collect/trade for assets, till the right deal came along which could have been

Cp3
Harden
D12

With no asset's and cap space, we have no shot at those players or future stars

Look at those players and what they were traded for, besides Ewing, NO OTHER TRADE is comparable, taking back 40-50m in salary for 1 player while rest are SCRUBs
Dolan couldn't resist the charm for Melo but now Melo is getting on his nerves talking about a contract while doing going as far as Gallo/Chandler and a FA that we could have signed with Curry's expiring could have got us the same result or better the past couple of years....

I don't understand why people think we had the assets to get CP3, Harden, or Dwight. Look at the players and major picks dealt in those deals. The only reason we got Melo was because he strong-armed his way here. Had he not done that and accepted a trade anywhere, he would have been traded to brooklyn for their package which appealed to Denver much more then our's. We had no high picks to trade, and while teams like Gallo and Chandler, they were not viewed as future stars by most teams.

Felton was traded for a 1st round pick and Andre Miller

Gallo and Wilson Chandler could have gotten us at least a 1st rounder EACH

AR could have gotten us a 2nd rounder
Mogov could have gotten us a 2nd rounder
Eddy Curry (expiring) could have landed us something
Even TD, who had a career year in 3pt shooting could have landed us a pick

in addition to the 2 GS 2nd round picks, that was predicted high 2nd round picks
1 swap and 1 1st rounder and 60 million in salary saved for Denver

Now look back at what those players were traded for, it didn't come with 40m of crap salary so you cannot build a team with cap space

So trade our players we drafted during our rebuilding process for more draft picks so we can start the rebuilding process again? Sounds like a really annoying cycle. At what point do you actually try and win? What happens after those draft picks play in the league for 3-4 years, do we try to trade them again for more draft picks? I don't get the logic.

You don't always trade them away. You decide which pieces are worth keeping and which aren't.
It couldn't be a worse cycle than Dolan's starphucking has been.

Rotating Assets is very important and keeping salary to sign STEALS that would become assets in possible trades and deals that are not long term if NOT
WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT, once you get that 1st tier ALL STAR in Harden, getting D12 or another All Star caliber player is easy, with a core of young role players
While for G/F's they used the minimum to fill in the blanks for rotation for 3pt shooters/defenders, the easiest spot the fill in the NBA and cost efficient....

So what did Houston do prior to getting Harden and then Dwight, in addition to the PG's and SG/SF's they recycled from

Looking back in their recent history

Trading Tmac's expiring for....
taking Jordan Hill, a 1st round pick, and a swap, for taking 1 year of Jared Jeffries, in which they traded Jordan Hill for another 1st round pick to the Lakers

Lowry/Dragic/Aaron Brooks

trading Ariza, Budinger, Kevin Martin, Courtney Lee, and then keeping Parsons as he was the youngest with the most upside and versatility

Samuel Dalembert

trading Camby/Lee and whatever for multiple 2nd rounders

When you have asset's all teams and the league will be willing to trade with you because you have what they want, especially with expirings, we gave all of that away and took back 40m of garbage salaries that hinders us to build a team under the CBA

They signed Lin and Asik with cap space and they are assets despite their salaries
Both are young and will have a role on any team, as they will continue to get better and develop, and are at least quality role players
Especially with Asik and despite their salaries, they are only slightly over paid at 8m per year at a reasonable length

So YES, recycling, trading, and signing short term deals without overpaying for talent is very important in BUILDING a CONTENDING TEAM with patience
It was only 2 years ago when no one thought Houston would be able to draw ALL STAR talent level players once Tmac and Yao past their prime

These were the same things Donnie Walsh was trying to do, be patient and COLLECT assets, and sign players that will gain value
Draft players that are HARD WORKERS on and off the court with 4 years of college for maturity over plain physical talent like Brandon Jennings/Lance Stephonson
Building a team without ego's and are able to both score, defend, and with chemistry that were coachable

Yea exactly the Knicks got Melo but continue to give up assets. When you compound that with amares contract you are screwed. Which is where we are today as of Monday 11/11/13 12:25pm. Screwed for a very long time

Screwed for a long time? We have almost clean payroll in a year and a half. I don't get it.

RonRon wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

RonRon wrote:trading earlier and admitting we made way too many mistakes since the deal for Melo, and retool with youth, assets, and CAP SPACE for 2015 FA class
The more we lose, the more lowballs we will get, unfortunately, we don't own this summer's draft pick...

in other words, Briggs does not see us stopping the bleeding with our lack of talent, and horrible coach with philosophies and lineups that don't work, but continues to be stubborn with it, lacking creativity and an actual system on both DEF and OFF

resigning Melo to a 20-30m contract will cost us another 10 years that he already cost us with the moves to get him, and the moves we were forced to overpay for since we were in "win now mode" with lack of flexibility and assets to offer

if we just let Walsh do his job, he would have just stayed patient, and sign players to trade, and collect/trade for assets, till the right deal came along which could have been

Cp3
Harden
D12

With no asset's and cap space, we have no shot at those players or future stars

Look at those players and what they were traded for, besides Ewing, NO OTHER TRADE is comparable, taking back 40-50m in salary for 1 player while rest are SCRUBs
Dolan couldn't resist the charm for Melo but now Melo is getting on his nerves talking about a contract while doing going as far as Gallo/Chandler and a FA that we could have signed with Curry's expiring could have got us the same result or better the past couple of years....

there are so many articles out there that highlighted how Walsh didn't not want to do this carmelo deal at this price...

Mike lupica made a great point. Knicks were in the drivers seat, we should have been able to make this deal with chandler, curry and his fat expiring and a couple of throw ins... instead we give up the farm... but whatever....

Knicks were not in the driver's seat if they really wanted Melo. Brooklyn was willing to take him without insurance of a new contract, which ultimately he made it clear he would have signed with them if he had no choice. Not making the deal is one thing, but saying we should have just given them less was not possible.

thats fine, if carmelo really wanted to come here and brooklyn wanted to risk the trade, we could have still had him... here is how it works..

Carmelo: I don't want to go to brooklyn
Denver: we are trading you there anyway..
carmelo: Ok

trade is made, he plays out the season and now it is over

carmelo to the nets: peace, I'm out!!

Knicks: Thanks nets....

Other scenario

Carmelo: I don't want to go to brooklyn
Denver: we are trading you there
Carmelo: Ok..

Carmelo being the greedy prick he is signs extension in NY..

Cool, good for the knicks..

Walsh: Ok, I hear CP3 and Dwight may be in play.. Lets start looking at how we can get in on that.. we have young assets, picks and cap space...

As I said, knicks were in the Drivers seat.. they didn't have to get carmelo, they had other options had they been patient.. which is what walsh was..

If carmelo really, really wanted to be here and win, he could have said, I won't sign an extension anywhere else... The end..

It is really simple, had he said, " I AM NOT SIGNING an EXTENSION except to NY, I want to go home "
And Donnie Walsh would have used that leverage without taking 40-50m of garbage salary
There is taking back salaries to make it match, but taking back 40m+ salary on top of the assets and money we saved Denver was absolutely RIDICULOUS and NOT worth it

Had we kept Wilson Chandler and Felton *trading him later*
Traded AR for a 2nd round pick
and only give up one of GS 2nd rounders and maybe one of ours instead since GS was predicted to have a high 2nd round pick

We would not be in this MESS and we would not have Billups and still have the AMNESTY
Also having Wilson Chandler compliments Melo on both DEF and OFF, as they both can shoot, Chandler can defend 3 positions, rebound, post up, initiate or finish on the fast break
Instead we have MWP at 33 and SG's playing SF, wondering why we have trouble defending player like Lebron, Durant, Paul George, and even a Rudy Gay caliber of talent...

yea, I said this when we made the trade.. we are set up to only add mismatch pieces and aging players to this team.... and that seems to be the case.. we didn't have to get fleeced in this deal at all, we should have easily been in the drivers seat.. dolan stepped in and had us dealing out of fear.. and that was a huge mistake...

Knixkik wrote:

RonRon wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

RonRon wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

RonRon wrote:trading earlier and admitting we made way too many mistakes since the deal for Melo, and retool with youth, assets, and CAP SPACE for 2015 FA class
The more we lose, the more lowballs we will get, unfortunately, we don't own this summer's draft pick...

in other words, Briggs does not see us stopping the bleeding with our lack of talent, and horrible coach with philosophies and lineups that don't work, but continues to be stubborn with it, lacking creativity and an actual system on both DEF and OFF

resigning Melo to a 20-30m contract will cost us another 10 years that he already cost us with the moves to get him, and the moves we were forced to overpay for since we were in "win now mode" with lack of flexibility and assets to offer

if we just let Walsh do his job, he would have just stayed patient, and sign players to trade, and collect/trade for assets, till the right deal came along which could have been

Cp3
Harden
D12

With no asset's and cap space, we have no shot at those players or future stars

Look at those players and what they were traded for, besides Ewing, NO OTHER TRADE is comparable, taking back 40-50m in salary for 1 player while rest are SCRUBs
Dolan couldn't resist the charm for Melo but now Melo is getting on his nerves talking about a contract while doing going as far as Gallo/Chandler and a FA that we could have signed with Curry's expiring could have got us the same result or better the past couple of years....

I don't understand why people think we had the assets to get CP3, Harden, or Dwight. Look at the players and major picks dealt in those deals. The only reason we got Melo was because he strong-armed his way here. Had he not done that and accepted a trade anywhere, he would have been traded to brooklyn for their package which appealed to Denver much more then our's. We had no high picks to trade, and while teams like Gallo and Chandler, they were not viewed as future stars by most teams.

Felton was traded for a 1st round pick and Andre Miller

Gallo and Wilson Chandler could have gotten us at least a 1st rounder EACH

AR could have gotten us a 2nd rounder
Mogov could have gotten us a 2nd rounder
Eddy Curry (expiring) could have landed us something
Even TD, who had a career year in 3pt shooting could have landed us a pick

in addition to the 2 GS 2nd round picks, that was predicted high 2nd round picks
1 swap and 1 1st rounder and 60 million in salary saved for Denver

Now look back at what those players were traded for, it didn't come with 40m of crap salary so you cannot build a team with cap space

So trade our players we drafted during our rebuilding process for more draft picks so we can start the rebuilding process again? Sounds like a really annoying cycle. At what point do you actually try and win? What happens after those draft picks play in the league for 3-4 years, do we try to trade them again for more draft picks? I don't get the logic.

You don't always trade them away. You decide which pieces are worth keeping and which aren't.
It couldn't be a worse cycle than Dolan's starphucking has been.

Rotating Assets is very important and keeping salary to sign STEALS that would become assets in possible trades and deals that are not long term if NOT
WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT, once you get that 1st tier ALL STAR in Harden, getting D12 or another All Star caliber player is easy, with a core of young role players
While for G/F's they used the minimum to fill in the blanks for rotation for 3pt shooters/defenders, the easiest spot the fill in the NBA and cost efficient....

So what did Houston do prior to getting Harden and then Dwight, in addition to the PG's and SG/SF's they recycled from

Looking back in their recent history

Trading Tmac's expiring for....
taking Jordan Hill, a 1st round pick, and a swap, for taking 1 year of Jared Jeffries, in which they traded Jordan Hill for another 1st round pick to the Lakers

Lowry/Dragic/Aaron Brooks

trading Ariza, Budinger, Kevin Martin, Courtney Lee, and then keeping Parsons as he was the youngest with the most upside and versatility

Samuel Dalembert

trading Camby/Lee and whatever for multiple 2nd rounders

When you have asset's all teams and the league will be willing to trade with you because you have what they want, especially with expirings, we gave all of that away and took back 40m of garbage salaries that hinders us to build a team under the CBA

They signed Lin and Asik with cap space and they are assets despite their salaries
Both are young and will have a role on any team, as they will continue to get better and develop, and are at least quality role players
Especially with Asik and despite their salaries, they are only slightly over paid at 8m per year at a reasonable length

So YES, recycling, trading, and signing short term deals without overpaying for talent is very important in BUILDING a CONTENDING TEAM with patience
It was only 2 years ago when no one thought Houston would be able to draw ALL STAR talent level players once Tmac and Yao past their prime

These were the same things Donnie Walsh was trying to do, be patient and COLLECT assets, and sign players that will gain value
Draft players that are HARD WORKERS on and off the court with 4 years of college for maturity over plain physical talent like Brandon Jennings/Lance Stephonson
Building a team without ego's and are able to both score, defend, and with chemistry that were coachable

The problem with recycle picks and players you draft is eventually to run into the scenario where you must pay some of those players or possibly lose them for nothing. Look at Denver and Utah for example after dealing Melo and DWill. Denver had to pay Gallo and Chandler and have other players making large contracts who are good but not great players. They have no cap space, no up and comers on rookie contracts other than possibly Faried and really no way to take the extra step. Utah will have to overpay Gordon Hayward this summer or lose him for nothing, and will run into that problem with some other players soon. Do you really want to be put in that situation? Its better to overpay all-stars then give market value to good role players and get stuck as a middle of the road team for the duration of those contracts. Not saying we did it the best way, but i would rather go all-in then be stuck in that position. At least our franchise has managed contracts to expire at the same time with potential to try again. We have 2015 with a great chance to improve.

+1
This neverending worldview that you draft your way to relevance does not automagically pan out. Dallas drafted Dirk and took ten effing years to win a chip with an assortment of starphuchs. Boston the same thing, and Rondo was not the key to their chip squad; anyone who thinks so is deranged, and I hate KG and PP more than anyone on here. Tim Duncans and LeQ's and Durants don't grow on trees. That's three franchise players. OKC drafted Harden and promptly let him go. Starphucqing plays a key part in every chip but SanTones'.

Can anyone admit we've improved every year Melo's been here, and then talk about the logical beauty of AR for a second round pick would have us winning a chip this year? DHow couldn't stand playing in LA, but he's going to be the main man in NYC? Why is CP3 coming here in 2010? To play with who? Your dream draft pick? Stat? Gallo? Mozgov? Chandler?

Give up the "imma real GM boy!" pipe, it will stunt your growth and potential for happiness.

Melo's 12th on the active list right now for the HOF. Let that sink in.

It's nice to dream, but try returning to live with reality.