Vmart wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Melo likes hero ball. There are times when hero ball isn't the way to go and just being consistent all around player is what is required. Every game can't be beast mode he simple isn't a good enough shooter to do that. Consistent beast mode guys are players that shoot over 50% on a regular basis.

True, and I suppose thats why I don't blame Melo only- you look at the players he had round him in his playoffs as a Knick, and I don't really see the personel for effective team basketball, especially scoring wise.

I blame Melo, while he is doing his beast mode dance he is losing his teammates. Nothing worse than watching a player go in beast mode and shooting at less than 40% clip. The best year Melo had with Billup, Billups controlled the ball and he took the responsibility of getting the other players involved. Melo has tunnel vision and he doesn't realize his faults, he doesn't know the difference when he is shooting the team back into a game and shooting his team out.

Melo has to be a better shooter and more aware of his teammates you have to keep them in the game too. He can't have his own personal game going on.

True, but it's a two way thing- I get just as annoyed at seeing teammates play scared and brick open shots. I get why Melo sometimes loses faith in them and takes it on himself. It's a bit of a vicious circle though.

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:So I was on basketball-reference.com and went through all his playoff game logs. I kept my criteria simple. 40% Shooting.

Folks have always said Melo's had to play tough teams, the West was loaded, cant hold him accountable for not beating the Spurs and Lakers etc when nobody was... we have been through it ad nauseum

I knew this year would show it pretty clearly but other years paint the same picture when you combine them.

These last playoffs:
Melo shoots +40%: Knicks are 5-1
Melo shoots -40%: Knicks are 1-5

Wow. I certainly blame JR's abysmal shooting as well, and I especially kill Chandler for gettig mowed over by Hibbert but when you look at the best player on the team hard to ignore that.

His career?
Melo shoots +40%: his teams are 15-17
Melo shoots -40%: his teams are 7-24

What is uterly shocking is that in 66 playoff games Melo has failed to shoot over 40% in 34 of them.

Melo had a monster year last year and Im hoping he picks up where he left off in that regard. But come post season something needs to give if the Knicks wants to have any chance of competing.

To me the only saving grace is defense. If we build a defensive monster we can still win regardless of this. In 2009 when Melo was playing with KMart, Nene, Billups and Dante Jones they had the formula to make it work.

Can Chandler, MWP, Shump and Felton match the defense those Denver guys were able to grind out?

Hard to see this team ever sustain a playoff run without an elite caliber defense...

He is my view of it and where we disagree...

What is shockingly obvious to me by those numbers is that Melo has been on teams that is heavily dependent on Melo...As Melo goes, so goes the team...But also look at where he shoots over 40% over his career, he still has a losing record...Is this not a reflection on his team??..When he shoot under 40%, there is virtually no hope to win...Is this a reflection on Melo or his team??...Where he has had another "star", where he can't be the focus of the defense, he shot better..In this particular instance, it happened once with Billups, but isn't that enough times to ask can he perform as expected when the load isn't on him alone...To me, it far from an indictment when you can show he performs well when he has another star playing alongside him...

too dependant on him...? Dont really know how you get that, but if thats the case then thats a problem because he's shown he's not consistant enough to be depended on. You can lose, still produce and get beat by a better team. Melo's losses are right in line with his inconsist play. If he shoots any reasonable average (>40%) his teams are right at .500 and for playoffs thats really good because your playing against the NBAs best. But OVER 50% of his playoff games he's failed to shoot 40%. I mean thats Keith Van Horn territory. The only diff is Melo keeps firing and missing KVH was just too afraid to actually shoot it. That is staggering playoff ineptitude from Melo.

He still had a monster year and his month long streaks are tantalizing, like getting 30/10 a night in April when the Knicks are making their push. Its non sustainable.

Ok..Let's look at this one case(charge) at a time...What does the fact that when he shoots over 40% his teams still have a losing record..What does that tell you???..Or When he shoots less the 40% his teams has virtually no chance of winning???

but

for Melo, he would rather shoot his way out of it and try to be the hero in any given scenario, that is what he loves
Yes, he had injuries that may have bothered his abilities but he chose to continue to force shots, even if it was well defended and on a tough defenders
Is that on Woodson or Melo?

For these reasons that is why DK and some posters don't buy in to him and believe in his abilities to be our #1 option but get called as HATERS

holfresh wrote:

RonRon wrote:when your shot is not hitting, you can choose to exert your energy on DEF, facilitating, REBOUNDS, setting picks, fighting for position, etc

but

for Melo, he would rather shoot his way out of it and try to be the hero in any given scenario, that is what he loves
Yes, he had injuries that may have bothered his abilities but he chose to continue to force shots, even if it was well defended and on a tough defenders
Is that on Woodson or Melo?

For these reasons that is why DK and some posters don't buy in to him and believe in his abilities to be our #1 option but get called as HATERS

Some one has to shoot the ball..So who in your opinion shoould have been shooting instead of Melo??

Tyson Chandler, duh!

He makes like 90% of his shots.

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:ESPN is garbage and hates NY sports, thats been well documented here and on the Giants, Jets, Yankees, Mets and Ranger sites as well. But sure... let that hold more water in your mind than MVP votes. Im sorry your not impressed with a scoring title, all star, the best season for the Knicks since Ewing and 3rd in MVP voting (as opposed say 13th, because while you might not be a math major Im willing to help you here 3 is much better than 13).

Your really good at the magical mix of players thats better than Melo, but you offer no other options that are even remotely better.

Would you split the $10mm between Gallo and Brandon Jennings? Who are these magical guys who are going put up the 50win seasons. Name them.

The whole argument is just "the grass is always greener." There is no alternate plan that makes us a better team, just a theory that flexibility, but nothing tangible, is a better option.

It's a mute point because this organization has already proven that they have no idea what to do with flexibility. Every move is not geared toward a long term plan to win a championship. Instead moves are made to sell tickets

holfresh wrote:

RonRon wrote:when your shot is not hitting, you can choose to exert your energy on DEF, facilitating, REBOUNDS, setting picks, fighting for position, etc

but

for Melo, he would rather shoot his way out of it and try to be the hero in any given scenario, that is what he loves
Yes, he had injuries that may have bothered his abilities but he chose to continue to force shots, even if it was well defended and on a tough defenders
Is that on Woodson or Melo?

For these reasons that is why DK and some posters don't buy in to him and believe in his abilities to be our #1 option but get called as HATERS

Some one has to shoot the ball..So who in your opinion shoould have been shooting instead of Melo??

how about open players who happen to shoot a better percentage than carmelo...

RonRon wrote:when your shot is not hitting, you can choose to exert your energy on DEF, facilitating, REBOUNDS, setting picks, fighting for position, etc

but

for Melo, he would rather shoot his way out of it and try to be the hero in any given scenario, that is what he loves
Yes, he had injuries that may have bothered his abilities but he chose to continue to force shots, even if it was well defended and on a tough defenders
Is that on Woodson or Melo?

For these reasons that is why DK and some posters don't buy in to him and believe in his abilities to be our #1 option but get called as HATERS

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:So I was on basketball-reference.com and went through all his playoff game logs. I kept my criteria simple. 40% Shooting.

Folks have always said Melo's had to play tough teams, the West was loaded, cant hold him accountable for not beating the Spurs and Lakers etc when nobody was... we have been through it ad nauseum

I knew this year would show it pretty clearly but other years paint the same picture when you combine them.

These last playoffs:
Melo shoots +40%: Knicks are 5-1
Melo shoots -40%: Knicks are 1-5

Wow. I certainly blame JR's abysmal shooting as well, and I especially kill Chandler for gettig mowed over by Hibbert but when you look at the best player on the team hard to ignore that.

His career?
Melo shoots +40%: his teams are 15-17
Melo shoots -40%: his teams are 7-24

What is uterly shocking is that in 66 playoff games Melo has failed to shoot over 40% in 34 of them.

Melo had a monster year last year and Im hoping he picks up where he left off in that regard. But come post season something needs to give if the Knicks wants to have any chance of competing.

To me the only saving grace is defense. If we build a defensive monster we can still win regardless of this. In 2009 when Melo was playing with KMart, Nene, Billups and Dante Jones they had the formula to make it work.

Can Chandler, MWP, Shump and Felton match the defense those Denver guys were able to grind out?

Hard to see this team ever sustain a playoff run without an elite caliber defense...

FUNNY you post this fish after spending a whole day arguing with me over pretty much the same thing.. this is not a guy you invest 20 mil a year in. You can blame guys like JR and chandler, but when a team builds an offense around you, to cater to your style of play, if you do poorly the team suffers, and that has been the case with carmelo. Doesn't make him lee nailon, and sure as hell doesn't make him lebron or Durant..

Good research tho fish...

To me the only saving grace is defense

I agree with that in theory, but how do you build a monster defensive team when your best player doesn't defend? they have to set the tone.

Can Chandler, MWP, Shump and Felton match the defense those Denver guys were able to grind out?

I am not confident in that..

Ive never defended his post season record. Never ever. All Ive said is he had a monster year, all star, 3rd in MVP, getting as many votes as CP3 and Kobe combined, won a scoring title, 54 wins... all FACTS that show he had a monster year. Something you refuse to acknowledge.

We arent winning a title with Melo taking 30 shots in the playoffs. But if we dont pay our best player and biggest impact guy we wont go to the playoffs at all. So if paying a guy $20mm pretty much guarentees you 50ish wins after 10 years in the lottery I would say thats a sound return for your money. The question is can we build a team that can grind out wins in the post season. To me the biggest problem with this roster isnt Melo right now. He did his job last year. The supporting cast was a turnstyle of dudes who should be paid for hair loss and boner comercials, not for NBA basketball.

Not spending the money so we can win 25 games a year again isnt an option. Get over that. While it might be fun to get a good GM, trade Melo and stock up on picks and develop young players its just not happening. If thats what your holding out for try the Raptors... DJ is dying for dudes to watch ball with him

fish, I would call that a very good year, not a monster year. not impressed at all finishing 3rd in MVP with just 1 vote, honestly that is like finishing 13th IMO..

but I guess my point is, there is nothing to acknowledge, as we were talking about ESPN ranking him 15th, that was the title of the thread, and I agree with them.....

Not spending the money so we can win 25 games a year again isnt an option. Get over that

where did I say that fish?????!!!!

I said, I don't want to spend 20+ million on CARMELO!!! and the league has already proven, you can spend less money, make the playoffs and get eliminated in the first round,except you would have a higher ceiling for improvement....

While it might be fun to get a good GM, trade Melo and stock up on picks and develop young players its just not happening. If thats what your holding out for try the Raptors... DJ is dying for dudes to watch ball with him

I can go pull the quotes, but I am going to tell you the same thing I told people on the other site who was hating/knocking Daryl Morey.

You Don't have to be bad for long. Just be smart, develop a plan and stick to it... served Houston well, and they haven't been bad at all while building that team, managed to stay in the 40+ range almost every year...

but thats cool... pay carmelo his 20+ mil... I don't have to go watch the raptors, there are teams like Denver, Houston, Golden state that will put the kind of product on the floor that all of us dream about..

You TKF I don't know why you keep bringing up the same old stuff. If we loose Melo we are headed to the lottery with no picks. You still think a super star is coming to New York when Melo leaves. New York is the hardest market in the NBA and for Melo just to come to New York takes balls. We may not win a championship in 20 years. So what cha gonna do?? You are wasting your breath. It is what it is so you have no choice. Either sit there and complain and probably have a nervous break down or just shut up and be a good fan.

Papabear wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:So I was on basketball-reference.com and went through all his playoff game logs. I kept my criteria simple. 40% Shooting.

Folks have always said Melo's had to play tough teams, the West was loaded, cant hold him accountable for not beating the Spurs and Lakers etc when nobody was... we have been through it ad nauseum

I knew this year would show it pretty clearly but other years paint the same picture when you combine them.

These last playoffs:
Melo shoots +40%: Knicks are 5-1
Melo shoots -40%: Knicks are 1-5

Wow. I certainly blame JR's abysmal shooting as well, and I especially kill Chandler for gettig mowed over by Hibbert but when you look at the best player on the team hard to ignore that.

His career?
Melo shoots +40%: his teams are 15-17
Melo shoots -40%: his teams are 7-24

What is uterly shocking is that in 66 playoff games Melo has failed to shoot over 40% in 34 of them.

Melo had a monster year last year and Im hoping he picks up where he left off in that regard. But come post season something needs to give if the Knicks wants to have any chance of competing.

To me the only saving grace is defense. If we build a defensive monster we can still win regardless of this. In 2009 when Melo was playing with KMart, Nene, Billups and Dante Jones they had the formula to make it work.

Can Chandler, MWP, Shump and Felton match the defense those Denver guys were able to grind out?

Hard to see this team ever sustain a playoff run without an elite caliber defense...

FUNNY you post this fish after spending a whole day arguing with me over pretty much the same thing.. this is not a guy you invest 20 mil a year in. You can blame guys like JR and chandler, but when a team builds an offense around you, to cater to your style of play, if you do poorly the team suffers, and that has been the case with carmelo. Doesn't make him lee nailon, and sure as hell doesn't make him lebron or Durant..

Good research tho fish...

To me the only saving grace is defense

I agree with that in theory, but how do you build a monster defensive team when your best player doesn't defend? they have to set the tone.

Can Chandler, MWP, Shump and Felton match the defense those Denver guys were able to grind out?

I am not confident in that..

Ive never defended his post season record. Never ever. All Ive said is he had a monster year, all star, 3rd in MVP, getting as many votes as CP3 and Kobe combined, won a scoring title, 54 wins... all FACTS that show he had a monster year. Something you refuse to acknowledge.

We arent winning a title with Melo taking 30 shots in the playoffs. But if we dont pay our best player and biggest impact guy we wont go to the playoffs at all. So if paying a guy $20mm pretty much guarentees you 50ish wins after 10 years in the lottery I would say thats a sound return for your money. The question is can we build a team that can grind out wins in the post season. To me the biggest problem with this roster isnt Melo right now. He did his job last year. The supporting cast was a turnstyle of dudes who should be paid for hair loss and boner comercials, not for NBA basketball.

Not spending the money so we can win 25 games a year again isnt an option. Get over that. While it might be fun to get a good GM, trade Melo and stock up on picks and develop young players its just not happening. If thats what your holding out for try the Raptors... DJ is dying for dudes to watch ball with him

fish, I would call that a very good year, not a monster year. not impressed at all finishing 3rd in MVP with just 1 vote, honestly that is like finishing 13th IMO..

but I guess my point is, there is nothing to acknowledge, as we were talking about ESPN ranking him 15th, that was the title of the thread, and I agree with them.....

Not spending the money so we can win 25 games a year again isnt an option. Get over that

where did I say that fish?????!!!!

I said, I don't want to spend 20+ million on CARMELO!!! and the league has already proven, you can spend less money, make the playoffs and get eliminated in the first round,except you would have a higher ceiling for improvement....

While it might be fun to get a good GM, trade Melo and stock up on picks and develop young players its just not happening. If thats what your holding out for try the Raptors... DJ is dying for dudes to watch ball with him

I can go pull the quotes, but I am going to tell you the same thing I told people on the other site who was hating/knocking Daryl Morey.

You Don't have to be bad for long. Just be smart, develop a plan and stick to it... served Houston well, and they haven't been bad at all while building that team, managed to stay in the 40+ range almost every year...

but thats cool... pay carmelo his 20+ mil... I don't have to go watch the raptors, there are teams like Denver, Houston, Golden state that will put the kind of product on the floor that all of us dream about..

Papabear Says

You TKF I don't know why you keep bringing up the same old stuff. If we loose Melo we are headed to the lottery with no picks. You still think a super star is coming to New York when Melo leaves. New York is the hardest market in the NBA and for Melo just to come to New York takes balls. We may not win a championship in 20 years. So what cha gonna do?? You are wasting your breath. It is what it is so you have no choice. Either sit there and complain and probably have a nervous break down or just shut up and be a good fan.

SO YOU THink the knicks are no better than a lottery team without carmelo? ok, then blow it up, because you will never win with a team like that...

funny how denver won 57 games without him....