GustavBahler wrote:http://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Incorporated-Managed-Inverted-Totalitarianism/dp/069114589X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381326426&sr=8-1&keywords=democracy+inc

NardDog, have you read this book? Great read and spot on IMO.

No, I haven't but I definitely will. I definitely appreciate the tip. Are you still reading it?

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Golly, I thought this was a federal republic (boo Bonn!) and not a democracy.

In Congress, July 4, 1776.
A Declaration
By the Representatives of the
United States of America,
In general Congress assembled.

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness—-That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

I normally make it my business not to try to write my own laws and ways of doing things. Especially when it's been done already for the country I live in.

But you see, I'm just a stupid conservative Republican. Not a member of the elitist liberal humanist class who know better than a bunch of deist slave owners who decided to start a country as a way of jumpstarting the capitalistic pigfest our Democratic brothers are trying to finally to put right by making the decisions on how to pursue happiness for you.

Are you paid to be this delusional or does it come naturally to you?

Please, tell me some more of your "facts". I graduated cum laude with a degree in Poli Sci. What you got, Dog? More ad hominem?

Do you honestly believe in big government liberalism or did you just agree to have one of Al Gore's V-chips implanted in your skull?

No. I was actually too busy graduating with a double major in Biology and Psychology, with a minor in Health Studies but I've had my fair share American Studies, Political Science and Sociology courses.
And yes, I'm a believer in big government because there is a direct positive correlation between it and being a leading industrial nation. This is the case for all of Western Europe and has largely been the case for us as a superpower.

And maybe you should go back and review some of your old Political Science textbooks because you evidently don't know what a law is. The Declaration of Independence is just a set of principles/ideals that our government organizes itself around. In essence, it becomes the spirit of the nation and her peoples. Laws are a system of rules which are later expressed in the Constitution, Articles of Confederation, Amendments, state laws, . Laws certainly spring from the spirit of the Declaration of Independence but there are no laws as you suggest, in it. I'm sure that these facts are just part of the liberal conspiracy though.

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:http://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Incorporated-Managed-Inverted-Totalitarianism/dp/069114589X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381326426&sr=8-1&keywords=democracy+inc

NardDog, have you read this book? Great read and spot on IMO.

No, I haven't but I definitely will. I definitely appreciate the tip. Are you still reading it?

Read it a few years ago right after Obama was elected, the new edition apparently has an update on his presidency. It covers what we've been discussing in these threads so I thought it might interest you. Its a little dry but worth reading IMO.

GustavBahler wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:http://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Incorporated-Managed-Inverted-Totalitarianism/dp/069114589X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381326426&sr=8-1&keywords=democracy+inc

NardDog, have you read this book? Great read and spot on IMO.

No, I haven't but I definitely will. I definitely appreciate the tip. Are you still reading it?

Read it a few years ago right after Obama was elected, the new edition apparently has an update on his presidency. It covers what we've been discussing in these threads so I thought it might interest you. Its a little dry but worth reading IMO.

I'm going to start reading it tomorrow. Tonight will be spent watching the Knicks and making a whole bunch of predictions about the season that will probably never materialize, lol. Are you going to be around the board over the next few weeks? I'm probably going to want to talk about it, lol. Anyway, thanks again for the read.

NardDogNation wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Maybe with all that science in your background you should review some reading fundamentals. What's the title of the thread? What was the question?

Who asked what a law was?
You want to tell me how a bill makes it's way through congress? Or maybe you'd like to expound on how evolution provided a bacterial flagellum?

The Declaration is just that. A Declaration. It includes the purpose of why governments are formed. Maybe you don't think that's relevant. You'll perhaps notice who wrote it, and how they represented themselves.

I think you should spend a little less time with the liberal big government rhetoric and spend a little more time thinking about what your actual question is.

And while you're at it, maybe you can explain what the basis is of these "laws" you say exist as a "system of rules" that are LATER expressed in the Constitution? What system of rules? Whose rules? These are your "facts"?

That's comedic gold. Just to clarify your posted this:

Golly, I thought this was a federal republic (boo Bonn!) and not a democracy.
In Congress, July 4, 1776.
A Declaration
By the Representatives of the
United States of America,
In general Congress assembled.
We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness—-That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
I normally make it my business not to try to write my own laws and ways of doing things. Especially when it's been done already for the country I live in.

You had an excerpt of the Declaration of Independence, immediately followed by the comment "I normally make it my business not to try to write my own laws and ways of doing things. Especially when it's been done already for the country I live in." In other words, you believed the excerpt you provided to be a set of laws that had been provided "(by) the country (you) live in". The fact of the matter is that you are not familiar with the Declaration of Independence and you can't lawyer your way out of this. In any case, it has little relevance to the topic because every Republic formed after 1776, has embodied the spirit of these principles. Even so, governments around the world play a very different role in their respective societies and still remain a Republic. The intent of this thread is to figure out what that appropriate role is. Keep up.

hahaha. It's like posting "2 + 2 = 5" and then when people tell you you're wrong, you try to save your case by pointing out that the thread title did not mention addition.

NardDogNation wrote:

IronWillGiroud wrote:i pull myself out of here now, obviously in way over my head.

all the best,
iwg

If you felt attacked I apologize. I just was curious about how you arrived at your position to figure out the nuance of it. From my side looking in, I can not understand the idea of having that impotent a government considering the cautionary tales of our own past.

not at all, and i can take an attack anyway.

just don't have the energy/will to go through with this.

i will enjoy your guys' thoughts here

arkrud wrote:Government represent the power of elite.
US government represent the power of 1% of the society which produce almost all wealth and consume most of it too.
The rest is unthinking majority which is clueless and have no idea about what is going on outside of their little live..
30% of this majority works and produce enough to feed their families.
Other 70% of them leave on entitlements... and are happy at this.
We need army to keep elites form other counties to get our wealth by force.
We need police, FBI, etc. to prevent disorderly redistribution of wealth.
Big government we have is just another type of welfare given to millions otherwise useless people who have no idea how to support themselves.

This comment sums it all up : The rest is unthinking majority which is clueless and have no idea about what is going on outside of their little lives.

playa2 wrote:

arkrud wrote:Government represent the power of elite.
US government represent the power of 1% of the society which produce almost all wealth and consume most of it too.
The rest is unthinking majority which is clueless and have no idea about what is going on outside of their little live..
30% of this majority works and produce enough to feed their families.
Other 70% of them leave on entitlements... and are happy at this.
We need army to keep elites form other counties to get our wealth by force.
We need police, FBI, etc. to prevent disorderly redistribution of wealth.
Big government we have is just another type of welfare given to millions otherwise useless people who have no idea how to support themselves.

This comment sums it all up : The rest is unthinking majority which is clueless and have no idea about what is going on outside of their little lives.

people are not clueless, some things are just outside the scope of the average man, so there is no point in bothering with it,

i always say politics is best left to politicians

arkrud wrote:Government represent the power of elite.
US government represent the power of 1% of the society which produce almost all wealth and consume most of it too.
The rest is unthinking majority which is clueless and have no idea about what is going on outside of their little live..
30% of this majority works and produce enough to feed their families.
Other 70% of them leave on entitlements... and are happy at this.
We need army to keep elites form other counties to get our wealth by force.
We need police, FBI, etc. to prevent disorderly redistribution of wealth.
Big government we have is just another type of welfare given to millions otherwise useless people who have no idea how to support themselves.

And what is this based on, Mitt Romney? Last I checked, the elites aren't the ones in the factories creating and/or maintaining their products nor do they represent the consumers that offer up their resources to make the elite, elite. There is a balance to society, ying and yang, that needs to be recognized. The role of government is to protect a healthy balance or as our Constitution so eloquently puts, "protect the GENERAL welfare".

IronWillGiroud wrote:

arkrud wrote:Government represent the power of elite.
US government represent the power of 1% of the society which produce almost all wealth and consume most of it too.
The rest is unthinking majority which is clueless and have no idea about what is going on outside of their little live..
30% of this majority works and produce enough to feed their families.
Other 70% of them leave on entitlements... and are happy at this.
We need army to keep elites form other counties to get our wealth by force.
We need police, FBI, etc. to prevent disorderly redistribution of wealth.
Big government we have is just another type of welfare given to millions otherwise useless people who have no idea how to support themselves.

i like how arkrud doesn't post often,

but when he does,

he hits you with sledgehammer on the head

Don’t get me wrong - it is not about good or bad.
This is reality of the advancement of human race.
It was time when 0.01% of the society had most of the wealth and power.
And only 10% were able to support their families.
We are improving and US is still leading the way.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/us-created-90-worlds-millionaires-194309907.html
We do have some crisis looming when the current power of bureaucrats (who recently became just consumers of wealth) will need to be replaced by technocrats (creators of wealth).
This will be the new class warfare for years to come.
My hope is that the level of violence we saw through the history of Mankind will start to decrease.
Other vice with technology advancing so fast the human race will be extinct

arkrud wrote:

IronWillGiroud wrote:

arkrud wrote:Government represent the power of elite.
US government represent the power of 1% of the society which produce almost all wealth and consume most of it too.
The rest is unthinking majority which is clueless and have no idea about what is going on outside of their little live..
30% of this majority works and produce enough to feed their families.
Other 70% of them leave on entitlements... and are happy at this.
We need army to keep elites form other counties to get our wealth by force.
We need police, FBI, etc. to prevent disorderly redistribution of wealth.
Big government we have is just another type of welfare given to millions otherwise useless people who have no idea how to support themselves.

i like how arkrud doesn't post often,

but when he does,

he hits you with sledgehammer on the head

Don’t get me wrong - it is not about good or bad.
This is reality of the advancement of human race.
It was time when 0.01% of the society had most of the wealth and power.
And only 10% were able to support their families.
We are improving and US is still leading the way.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/us-created-90-worlds-millionaires-194309907.html
We do have some crisis looming when the current power of bureaucrats (who recently became just consumers of wealth) will need to be replaced by technocrats (creators of wealth).
This will be the new class warfare for years to come.
My hope is that the level of violence we saw through the history of Mankind will start to decrease.
Other vice with technology advancing so fast the human race will be extinct

I think this conversation is definitely about "good and bad" in the context of policy making. You, like many conservatives, make the error in assuming that financial "elite(s)" automatically mean people that are productive. The truth is that a significant portion of that population consists of people who simply inherited their wealth/resources, which does not mean they produce or create anything.

I got no problem with their being wealthy people, however. Greed is one of the easiest qualities of the human character to leverage progress, innovation, etc. My issue is that public money is being used to subsidize their wealth (see oil companies, big farmers, any company that produces anything abroad) to the detriment of the whole. After all, where are all these jobs that were promised after cutting their tax rates? They seem to be doing just fine, while college graduates are having to literally prostitute themselves just to pay off their college debt.

Unlike you, I don't believe that genius, the crux of innovation/production/progress, is endemic to any social class. Henry Ford was born to an immigrant father who operated a family farm. Wilbert and Oliver Wright's father was a bishop. Jonas Salk's parents were immigrants who barely had an education. You notice a trend here? This is why it is important for a government to be one that actively promotes the welfare of the whole because it is the only way a civilization can ever truly become great; Great minds are cultivated and not born.

It was time when 0.01% of the society had most of the wealth and power.
And only 10% were able to support their families.

Yeah and women were once not allowed to vote. Precedent doesn't make right or just nor is it a consolation prize for less ****tier circumstances. The fact of the matter is that in spite of the rich becoming richer, social mobility in our country has slowed to 11th among industrialized nations. The health of a society is always judged by the least of us and the least of us is unfortunately stagnant at 99% of the population.http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/