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The Goal for this Team remains the same
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tkf
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10/2/2013  12:10 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:We need a franchise player first. Without that, there's no point in actually talking about having a 2nd star.


yea, I agree and we have been trying to duplicate this boston/ miami thing without there being a Garnett, pierce, Lebron or WAde avaiable on the market... I don't get it... it is like trying to duplicate a particular cake recipe without the ingredients available... so you have to make another cake and make it better..

I say first lets start getting guys who can play both ends of the floor, have some level of integrity, and intelligence.. both on and off the court... Develop a system or style of play, perfect it, stick by it and demand excellence.. weed out the one's who can't cut it, the special one's will thrive and out of that you can find a leader and hopefully a franchise player...

we just do things so wrong...we pine for other teams problems, we try to make players into something they are not, just because they put on a knicks uniform.. we put so much effort into trying to shortcut the process!!

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
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tkf
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10/2/2013  12:12 PM
Solace wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:We need a franchise player first. Without that, there's no point in actually talking about having a 2nd star.

I don't know why we speak like this. People nearly unanimously agree that Melo is a top 10 player, maybe even top 5. He's flawed, but there are at least 20 other teams that would easily take him over their best player, all things being equal. He's not perfect, but really, what right do we as Knicks fans to act like anything but a championship is an absolute failure? We all want a championship, but hell we actually had a playoff run for the first time in over a decade. That was due to Melo. So, let's stop being ridiculous and tossing him under the bus.

I certainly wish Melo was a better leader, put in consistent effort on the defensive end of the ball and would make better decisions when he's shooting the ball. But, to say he's not a franchise player is not only ludicrous, but inaccurate. He is a franchise player; he's the Knicks franchise player, and he's the main reason we made the second round. There's also zero chance of Melo getting traded. So, let's just enjoy Melo for what he is and stop faulting him for not being LeBron.

people like who? and no one in their right mind has him close to top 5....

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Knixkik
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10/2/2013  12:14 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/2/2013  1:15 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:Mitch Richmond and glen Robinson were once considered franchise players too. I was gonna say Iverson but he accomplished more than Melo

You can't possibly be comparing Melo to them.


You mean because Melo gets a few more PPG?

There was never a point in time either of those players were considered by anyone to be top 10 NBA players. Big Dog barely accomplished anything in the league. Only made 2 all-star games, never once led the league in anything, never led his team to playoffs like Melo. Big Dog would be more comparable in today's game to a Danny Granger caliber player. And Richmond don't get me started on him either. I can understand not feeling he is a franchise cornerstone, but those comparisons are jokes and are very exaggerated to make a point. There isn't one NBA exec who would consider either of those players to be in the same class as Melo at any point in their careers.

Knixkik
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10/2/2013  12:17 PM
tkf wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:We need a franchise player first. Without that, there's no point in actually talking about having a 2nd star.


yea, I agree and we have been trying to duplicate this boston/ miami thing without there being a Garnett, pierce, Lebron or WAde avaiable on the market... I don't get it... it is like trying to duplicate a particular cake recipe without the ingredients available... so you have to make another cake and make it better..

I say first lets start getting guys who can play both ends of the floor, have some level of integrity, and intelligence.. both on and off the court... Develop a system or style of play, perfect it, stick by it and demand excellence.. weed out the one's who can't cut it, the special one's will thrive and out of that you can find a leader and hopefully a franchise player...

we just do things so wrong...we pine for other teams problems, we try to make players into something they are not, just because they put on a knicks uniform.. we put so much effort into trying to shortcut the process!!

Most people would say Melo is comparable to Pierce prior to KG and Allen arriving to Boston. I know you wouldn't, but just pointing out most consider Melo to be just as accomplished as Pierce, if not more, prior to him getting the help.

Knixkik
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10/2/2013  1:16 PM
tkf wrote:
Solace wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:We need a franchise player first. Without that, there's no point in actually talking about having a 2nd star.

I don't know why we speak like this. People nearly unanimously agree that Melo is a top 10 player, maybe even top 5. He's flawed, but there are at least 20 other teams that would easily take him over their best player, all things being equal. He's not perfect, but really, what right do we as Knicks fans to act like anything but a championship is an absolute failure? We all want a championship, but hell we actually had a playoff run for the first time in over a decade. That was due to Melo. So, let's stop being ridiculous and tossing him under the bus.

I certainly wish Melo was a better leader, put in consistent effort on the defensive end of the ball and would make better decisions when he's shooting the ball. But, to say he's not a franchise player is not only ludicrous, but inaccurate. He is a franchise player; he's the Knicks franchise player, and he's the main reason we made the second round. There's also zero chance of Melo getting traded. So, let's just enjoy Melo for what he is and stop faulting him for not being LeBron.

people like who? and no one in their right mind has him close to top 5....

He was top 5 in MVP voting last year. That doesn't give the whole story, but typically a player isn't voted top 5 in MVP if there aren't some people who would consider them to be a top 5-10 player.

Solace
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10/2/2013  2:08 PM
Knixkik wrote:
tkf wrote:
Solace wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:We need a franchise player first. Without that, there's no point in actually talking about having a 2nd star.

I don't know why we speak like this. People nearly unanimously agree that Melo is a top 10 player, maybe even top 5. He's flawed, but there are at least 20 other teams that would easily take him over their best player, all things being equal. He's not perfect, but really, what right do we as Knicks fans to act like anything but a championship is an absolute failure? We all want a championship, but hell we actually had a playoff run for the first time in over a decade. That was due to Melo. So, let's stop being ridiculous and tossing him under the bus.

I certainly wish Melo was a better leader, put in consistent effort on the defensive end of the ball and would make better decisions when he's shooting the ball. But, to say he's not a franchise player is not only ludicrous, but inaccurate. He is a franchise player; he's the Knicks franchise player, and he's the main reason we made the second round. There's also zero chance of Melo getting traded. So, let's just enjoy Melo for what he is and stop faulting him for not being LeBron.

people like who? and no one in their right mind has him close to top 5....

He was top 5 in MVP voting last year. That doesn't give the whole story, but typically a player isn't voted top 5 in MVP if there aren't some people who would consider them to be a top 5-10 player.

I saw some midyear polls last year that had Melo as high as #4. Obviously it varies from poll to poll. I haven't seen much of anything that didn't have him in the top 10. I think the dislike for Melo is the same as Robinson Cano. Great player but the way he carries himself and perceived lack of hustle really knock him down as to where people think he's useless. All I'm saying is we have to redefine our goals. The fact is with LeBron in the East, there will probably be no other teams winning the title from the East for a while. So, we might as well redefine our goals to be more realistic, which basically means maybe an eastern conference finals birth is our championship. I don't love not feeling like we're in the race for a championship, but it's better than the last 12 years.

Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Bonn1997
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10/2/2013  6:23 PM
Knixkik wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:Mitch Richmond and glen Robinson were once considered franchise players too. I was gonna say Iverson but he accomplished more than Melo

You can't possibly be comparing Melo to them.


You mean because Melo gets a few more PPG?

There was never a point in time either of those players were considered by anyone to be top 10 NBA players. Big Dog barely accomplished anything in the league. Only made 2 all-star games, never once led the league in anything, never led his team to playoffs like Melo. Big Dog would be more comparable in today's game to a Danny Granger caliber player. And Richmond don't get me started on him either. I can understand not feeling he is a franchise cornerstone, but those comparisons are jokes and are very exaggerated to make a point. There isn't one NBA exec who would consider either of those players to be in the same class as Melo at any point in their careers.


Melo is more popular and I do think he's better than those players even though I wouldn't put him in the same class as Pierce.
I barely remember Glen Robinson and Mitch Richmond. So I don't have a lot to say about them.
knickscity
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10/2/2013  6:24 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:Mitch Richmond and glen Robinson were once considered franchise players too. I was gonna say Iverson but he accomplished more than Melo

You can't possibly be comparing Melo to them.


You mean because Melo gets a few more PPG?

There was never a point in time either of those players were considered by anyone to be top 10 NBA players. Big Dog barely accomplished anything in the league. Only made 2 all-star games, never once led the league in anything, never led his team to playoffs like Melo. Big Dog would be more comparable in today's game to a Danny Granger caliber player. And Richmond don't get me started on him either. I can understand not feeling he is a franchise cornerstone, but those comparisons are jokes and are very exaggerated to make a point. There isn't one NBA exec who would consider either of those players to be in the same class as Melo at any point in their careers.


Melo is more popular and I do think he's better than those players even though I wouldn't put him in the same class as Pierce.
I barely remember Glen Robinson and Mitch Richmond. So I don't have a lot to say about them.

Be honest......how did you view Pierce before the big three?
Bonn1997
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10/2/2013  7:23 PM
knickscity wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:Mitch Richmond and glen Robinson were once considered franchise players too. I was gonna say Iverson but he accomplished more than Melo

You can't possibly be comparing Melo to them.


You mean because Melo gets a few more PPG?

There was never a point in time either of those players were considered by anyone to be top 10 NBA players. Big Dog barely accomplished anything in the league. Only made 2 all-star games, never once led the league in anything, never led his team to playoffs like Melo. Big Dog would be more comparable in today's game to a Danny Granger caliber player. And Richmond don't get me started on him either. I can understand not feeling he is a franchise cornerstone, but those comparisons are jokes and are very exaggerated to make a point. There isn't one NBA exec who would consider either of those players to be in the same class as Melo at any point in their careers.


Melo is more popular and I do think he's better than those players even though I wouldn't put him in the same class as Pierce.
I barely remember Glen Robinson and Mitch Richmond. So I don't have a lot to say about them.

Be honest......how did you view Pierce before the big three?

much more versatile than Melo - more efficient scorer and better passer.
I give minimal weight to team accomplishments when evaluating individual players.

dk7th
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10/2/2013  7:57 PM
Knixkik wrote:It has since 2008, attract 2 major stars to play together and build properly around them to compete for a championship.

We still have yet to do this. As we acquired Melo, the player we thought was the 2nd piece to that puzzle, little did we know Stoudemire was fizzling out. We never really saw the 2 of them playing at a high level together for an extended period of time. We continued to function as if we had those 2 players, hoping Stoudemire would get healthy and actually successfully built the team around those 2 players, adding good role players and depth that would fit well around 2 stars. Problem is of course we never had the 2 stars to begin with, making our supporting cast not what it was intended to be.

So here we are many years later, Melo is who Melo is (many will debate whether or not he is truely that star, but thats besides the point) and we are still looking to add that 2nd player. The plan will be over the next year or 2 to add that player (while resigning Melo in the meantime.) We can either do it through free agency in 2015 or consider dealing the many large expiring contracts we will have when the time comes. The question now is, who will be that player. I think Rondo seems to make the most sense realistically, i think Lebron and Kobe will always be outside options until their futures are clear. Aldridge is another option, and Irving and Love are there, but again less realistic. The ultimate fallback option is Rudy Gay, who isn't really a star, but just like Joe Johnson in 2010, will demand looks (and is a NYK type of player.)

Another few players will likely become available via trade or free agency that may fit the bill, but who do you think is our most likely addition, and how will we acquire that player?

the last player stoudemire needed, injury or not, was carmelo anthony. aside from an occasional flashy play, they were incompatible in the extreme, and far from effective. nothing to get excited about and certainly nothing to pine for. yet you assume that they would have been able to figure things out. ok. but they sure did not look like a good tandem to me 98% of the time. so in principle you want to get another player to pair with stoudemire, not someone to displace him, which is what happened. look at pierce and garnett: they went together. now compare that phenomenon with stat and melo. clear, isn't it?

now bargnani is going to become a hero or a scapegoat as stat's replacement. and then there's the shumpert issue. woodson is in a significant bind because shumpert deserves starting minutes and with a two-point guard lineup-- thanks to ray's ineptitude-- shumpert will be underutilized and this will stunt his development. i repeat this kid definitely deserves minutes and it's a shame that woodson will likely be the hurdle because he has decided not to have a point guard competition. stupid move. you have to have defenders and rebounders out there in the playoffs.

the lineup has to be based on the best orchestrator, somebody who can get all players involved and working from their comfort zone.

orchestrator, the best of any of felton, udrih or prigioni, = or - defenders no matter who plays
shumpert-- a + defender at the 2
artest-- an = defender or - defender at the 3
melo- an = or - defender at the 4
chandler-- an = or + defender at the 5

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
nixluva
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10/2/2013  10:28 PM
dk7th wrote:now bargnani is going to become a hero or a scapegoat as stat's replacement. and then there's the shumpert issue. woodson is in a significant bind because shumpert deserves starting minutes and with a two-point guard lineup-- thanks to ray's ineptitude-- shumpert will be underutilized and this will stunt his development. i repeat this kid definitely deserves minutes and it's a shame that woodson will likely be the hurdle because he has decided not to have a point guard competition. stupid move. you have to have defenders and rebounders out there in the playoffs.

the lineup has to be based on the best orchestrator, somebody who can get all players involved and working from their comfort zone.

orchestrator, the best of any of felton, udrih or prigioni, = or - defenders no matter who plays
shumpert-- a + defender at the 2
artest-- an = defender or - defender at the 3
melo- an = or - defender at the 4
chandler-- an = or + defender at the 5



It's early but so far Woody has been testing out a starting lineup of Felton, Shump, Melo, Bargs and Tyson. That could change, but it was Woody's 1st choice with this roster. I think it's fine if you want to talk about Felton's flaws as a PG, but as long as the team is is playing well, it doesn't matter what Felton can't do, but rather what he can do. Besides the rotation is going to allow for Udrih and Prigs to get lots of playing time too.

This team is primarily an offensive team and they aren't going to win trying to be the Bulls or Pacers. Defense is important, but they have to be true to what they are as a team. They need to play solid D and GREAT Offense. That's how they're built.

Knixkik
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10/3/2013  8:22 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
knickscity wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:Mitch Richmond and glen Robinson were once considered franchise players too. I was gonna say Iverson but he accomplished more than Melo

You can't possibly be comparing Melo to them.


You mean because Melo gets a few more PPG?

There was never a point in time either of those players were considered by anyone to be top 10 NBA players. Big Dog barely accomplished anything in the league. Only made 2 all-star games, never once led the league in anything, never led his team to playoffs like Melo. Big Dog would be more comparable in today's game to a Danny Granger caliber player. And Richmond don't get me started on him either. I can understand not feeling he is a franchise cornerstone, but those comparisons are jokes and are very exaggerated to make a point. There isn't one NBA exec who would consider either of those players to be in the same class as Melo at any point in their careers.


Melo is more popular and I do think he's better than those players even though I wouldn't put him in the same class as Pierce.
I barely remember Glen Robinson and Mitch Richmond. So I don't have a lot to say about them.

Be honest......how did you view Pierce before the big three?

much more versatile than Melo - more efficient scorer and better passer.
I give minimal weight to team accomplishments when evaluating individual players.

He was viewed as a better passer but even worse defender and not the overall scorer or rebounder Melo is. In general Melo is viewed as the better player than Pierce prior to his team success.

The Goal for this Team remains the same

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