Personally, I'd give it a solid A if we made these last minute alterations:

Cut Tyler and Leslie. With these 2 spots now open + the one that's been open (3 total), add Earl Barron, Luke Babbit and Toure Murry.

Not sure of the exact rotation (Smith might still be hurt to start, THJ could be elevated in the rotation, I kinda prefer Barron ahead of K-Mart and STAT at his normal position, etc.) but this would be my 15 man:

5 - Chandler
4 - Bargnani
3 - Anthony
2 - Shumpert
1 - Felton
-----------------
5 - Stoudemire/Barron
4 - Martin/Stoudemire
3 - Artest
2 - Smith
1 - Udrih
-----------------
Barron/Martin
Prigioni
Babbitt
Hardaway Jr.
Murry

Finestrg wrote:A- sounds about right. We really had an excellent offseason considering what we had to work with.

Personally, I'd give it a solid A if we made these last minute alterations:

Cut Tyler and Leslie. With these 2 spots now open + the one that's been open (3 total), add Earl Barron, Luke Babbit and Toure Murry.

Not sure of the exact rotation (Smith might still be hurt to start, THJ could be elevated in the rotation, I kinda prefer Barron ahead of K-Mart, etc.) but this would be my 15 man:

5 - Chandler
4 - Bargnani
3 - Anthony
2 - Shumpert
1 - Felton
-----------------
5 - Stoudemire
4 - Martin
3 - Artest
2 - Smith
1 - Udrih
-----------------
Barron
Prigioni
Babbitt
Hardaway Jr.
Murry

If they sign Barron I think they need to keep Leslie and Tyler. Leslie was a top 15 guy coming out of high school and at the beginning of his college career. He wasn't supposed to go undrafted. Tyler was a top 5 guy before messing up his future. Apparently he was advised by the same guy that had Jennings go over seas. Both those guys are really young and really talented. There are always Barrons and Babbits available. Murry might be something but I think the Knicks committed to the guys they already signed.

Finestrg wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Finestrg wrote:A- sounds about right. We really had an excellent offseason considering what we had to work with.

Personally, I'd give it a solid A if we made these last minute alterations:

Cut Tyler and Leslie. With these 2 spots now open + the one that's been open (3 total), add Earl Barron, Luke Babbit and Toure Murry.

Not sure of the exact rotation (Smith might still be hurt to start, THJ could be elevated in the rotation, I kinda prefer Barron ahead of K-Mart, etc.) but this would be my 15 man:

5 - Chandler
4 - Bargnani
3 - Anthony
2 - Shumpert
1 - Felton
-----------------
5 - Stoudemire
4 - Martin
3 - Artest
2 - Smith
1 - Udrih
-----------------
Barron
Prigioni
Babbitt
Hardaway Jr.
Murry

If they sign Barron I think they need to keep Leslie and Tyler. Leslie was a top 15 guy coming out of high school and at the beginning of his college career. He wasn't supposed to go undrafted. Tyler was a top 5 guy before messing up his future. Apparently he was advised by the same guy that had Jennings go over seas. Both those guys are really young and really talented. There are always Barrons and Babbits available. Murry might be something but I think the Knicks committed to the guys they already signed.

Leslie and Tyler are both projects. I have trouble seeing how they fit on a win-now team; have trouble seeing them being able to perform consistently at the NBA level if need be (the growing pains with both of these guys combined would be threw the roof) and have trouble seeing coach Woodson playing these guys and dealing with said growing pains...They're not terrible players to add; I just feel we'd be better served to have depth we know we can count on...I have Barron as a more useful big man over Tyler (more capable of providing production at the NBA level if need be) and I see Babbitt as a much better basketball talent than CJ Leslie. Apples and oranges -- can't even compare the two...Babbitt's 6'9", long as hell, maybe not the quickest or most athletic guy around but very skilled. This guy's a quality scorer with versatility, a money 40+% 3-pt shooter and a good rebounder for a 3. If you have a chance to cut Leslie loose to open up a spot and sign Luke Babbitt, you do it and don't think twice about it imo.

knicks1248 wrote:My question is how is woodson going to use the rotation, becaase he has 10 guys that are absoluetly not bench warmers..there's no KT, no old rookies, and no old ass veterans..we have quality players that need PT.

Nice problem to have, huh?

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:overachieved... gosh i feel the exact opposite.
also this guy is using criteria that is irrelevant-- the essence of how to grade a team's off-season moves is how well the team has done compared to how well its rivals have done. he is a moron for not taking this tack. it's second-rate thinking.

the most relevant rivals are the heat and the pacers since it is almost a given that that is who the east goes through. the nets and chicago are of secondary interest.

the heat are bad if lebron goes down with injury. if that happened that would be a shame for basketball but the east would be up for grabs.

He graded it based on what the Knicks could do under the circumstances they were in. I believe he said, Grunwald played the hand that was given to him.

how did we get these cinrcumstances. he wants to erase the history and base grades on pressing an unmentioned reset button.

homey don't play dat

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:You have to at least measure the value of the players Grunwald added for practically nothing. The players brought in are an upgrade over the players being replaced. They don't negatively impact the future and should give the team a boost over the next 2 years. I wonder exactly what were peoples expectations before the summer that would make these moves a disappointment? Were people expecting some big time FA being added with no money to offer? We kept a winning team mostly in tact and added to that talent in a meaningful way.

what is practically nothing?

Are 3 picks practically nothing?

Is camby practically nothing?

Is novak practically nothing? because when we gave him a new deal, you didn't think that was nothing..

Novak is worth it! We had almost no spacing, penetration or ball movement and that means that the Heat could just play their zone, which allows them to be within 2 steps of the paint and the 3 point line. The main reason is that Lebron and Wade are so fast that they can close off the paint and still get back to the 3pt line. However, we didn't even have any penetration to draw them away from Novak. They could just have someone stay right near him cuz our offense was too simple and predictable and it didn't force the D to adjust and cover the entire court. This year we'll have more penetration and spacing so Novak should be able to get open looks. Also we didn't set enough picks for Novak to get open or use him coming off curls. This is partly Woody's fault for going away from those plays that worked.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=42372&page=2

you wrote this, and the reason why I posted this, is because you also included your usual videos. Pretty much endorsing the deal the same way you are doing both beno and bargnani. hey, I guess keep endorsing questionable signings you will get one right one day, I assume...

I am curious, are there any moves the knicks made you don't endorse?

now you are not the only one who endorsed the novak deal, but you seem to be the only or one of the few who keeps knocking the guys you once endorsed.....

One question about CAmby. I believe the guy turns 40 this year. Isn't your complaint with the knicks that they spent their 3.1 mil on older vets? Not sure why you are sweating a guy that is old and couldn't get on the court when I believe the Pablo, Beno and Metta signings were criticized by you because of their age.

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:You have to at least measure the value of the players Grunwald added for practically nothing. The players brought in are an upgrade over the players being replaced. They don't negatively impact the future and should give the team a boost over the next 2 years. I wonder exactly what were peoples expectations before the summer that would make these moves a disappointment? Were people expecting some big time FA being added with no money to offer? We kept a winning team mostly in tact and added to that talent in a meaningful way.

what is practically nothing?

Are 3 picks practically nothing?

Is camby practically nothing?

Is novak practically nothing? because when we gave him a new deal, you didn't think that was nothing..

Novak is worth it! We had almost no spacing, penetration or ball movement and that means that the Heat could just play their zone, which allows them to be within 2 steps of the paint and the 3 point line. The main reason is that Lebron and Wade are so fast that they can close off the paint and still get back to the 3pt line. However, we didn't even have any penetration to draw them away from Novak. They could just have someone stay right near him cuz our offense was too simple and predictable and it didn't force the D to adjust and cover the entire court. This year we'll have more penetration and spacing so Novak should be able to get open looks. Also we didn't set enough picks for Novak to get open or use him coming off curls. This is partly Woody's fault for going away from those plays that worked.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=42372&page=2

you wrote this, and the reason why I posted this, is because you also included your usual videos. Pretty much endorsing the deal the same way you are doing both beno and bargnani. hey, I guess keep endorsing questionable signings you will get one right one day, I assume...

I am curious, are there any moves the knicks made you don't endorse?

now you are not the only one who endorsed the novak deal, but you seem to be the only or one of the few who keeps knocking the guys you once endorsed.....

Camby is nothing and was nothing last year. Novak wasn't the same player. His contract and Fields' contract on the bench at the same time is a big waste of salary space. Two of the three picks are nothing because they are late second rounders. The other was a compromised pick and will be a late first rounder. Also, aside from the projected second to last pick in the draft the picks aren't for several years. Hate for the players on the team aside, they are a 50+ win team with a window for how long they will be competitive. The picks given up to bring in a guy with Bargs unique ability weren't much and the players selected will not be a part of this current core. Again, not gonna sweat the Knicks not having a guy for Bayhawks next year or 2017.

One question about CAmby. I believe the guy turns 40 this year. Isn't your complaint with the knicks that they spent their 3.1 mil on older vets? Not sure why you are sweating a guy that is old and couldn't get on the court when I believe the Pablo, Beno and Metta signings were criticized by you because of their age.

no it isn't.. my complaint is that we used it on guys that didn't fit a need...

I believe the Pablo, Beno and Metta signings were criticized by you because of their age.

Aretest I criticized because I don't think we needed a SF who is on a steep decline..

Beno would have been ok for me, had we not wasted the money on pablo..

Camby is nothing and was nothing last year. Novak wasn't the same player. His contract and Fields' contract on the bench at the same time is a big waste of salary space. Two of the three picks are nothing because they are late second rounders. The other was a compromised pick and will be a late first rounder. Also, aside from the projected second to last pick in the draft the picks aren't for several years. Hate for the players on the team aside, they are a 50+ win team with a window for how long they will be competitive

No on was singing that tune then.. they were trying to justify it the very same way you and others are trying to justify this.. so why should these moves be any different? It is not like you guys are saying the moves just didn't work out, now yall are completely going opposite of what was said when the moves were made... we gave up 2 picks for camby and then included him in a trade where we gave away another 3 picks..as i said before, camby was directly or indirectly cost us 5 picks... wow!!

Hate for the players on the team aside, they are a 50+ win team with a window for how long they will be competitive.

That is not enough to mortgage the future for. You can get that without having to put together a mash unit like we have... I thought the goal was to be contenders.. we won 54 games last year.. I see less than 50 this year.. then what will you fall back on when you can't say " we won 50+ games".... I think the window has closed, the east is younger and better.. we are trying to take scrap heap players and package them as top quality products.. that don't work...

we sign novak.... "GREAT SIGNING", we trade novak.. " HE WAS USELESS"

this happens with almost every move the knicks make.. and anyone who says... lets taper expectations, are considered haters.. but cool I can't wait to see the opinions on beno, metta, and AB in a few months...

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:C- Melo is still on the team...

This:

A fair question to anyone who sees the Knicks’ offseason as anything less than super productive and yet another step in the right direction should be asked what more the team could have done in its quest to overthrow Miami.

Use the best available advanced stats to actually upgrade rather than downgrade the roster.
Or admit that this is not going to be a championship contending team and start over.

Perhaps the Advanced Stats they are using are different than the stats you are using. Perhaps they are looking at unit/team stats instead of individual stats? Also.....your statement "admit that this is not going to be a championship contending team and start over" is curious. Makes you appear to be an all or nothing kind of thinker. In my book, you don't just keep pressing the reset button every 1-2 years, especially if you are a playoff caliber team. The Knicks basically started over 4 years ago. The outcome of that reset was the creation of a playoff team, which has improved in record and playoff performance every year over the past 3 seasons. If they do not continue to improve and/or contend for a ship......they have an opportunity to reset again in 2015.

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:C- Melo is still on the team...

This:

A fair question to anyone who sees the Knicks’ offseason as anything less than super productive and yet another step in the right direction should be asked what more the team could have done in its quest to overthrow Miami.

Use the best available advanced stats to actually upgrade rather than downgrade the roster.
Or admit that this is not going to be a championship contending team and start over.

Perhaps the Advanced Stats they are using are different than the stats you are using. Perhaps they are looking at unit/team stats instead of individual stats? Also.....your statement "admit that this is not going to be a championship contending team and start over" is curious. Makes you appear to be an all or nothing kind of thinker. In my book, you don't just keep pressing the reset button every 1-2 years, especially if you are a playoff caliber team. The Knicks basically started over 4 years ago. The outcome of that reset was the creation of a playoff team, which has improved in record and playoff performance every year over the past 3 seasons. If they do not continue to improve and/or contend for a ship......they have an opportunity to reset again in 2015.

Championship winning is an all or nothing view. Contending isn't. I'm not aware of any team/unit stats that would paint a positive picture for the bargs trade. They certainly didn't mention those stats when discussing the trade.

could be stats not used for public or they are using public stats and reduce his role to what he does well.

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:You have to at least measure the value of the players Grunwald added for practically nothing. The players brought in are an upgrade over the players being replaced. They don't negatively impact the future and should give the team a boost over the next 2 years. I wonder exactly what were peoples expectations before the summer that would make these moves a disappointment? Were people expecting some big time FA being added with no money to offer? We kept a winning team mostly in tact and added to that talent in a meaningful way.

what is practically nothing?

Are 3 picks practically nothing?

Is camby practically nothing?

Is novak practically nothing? because when we gave him a new deal, you didn't think that was nothing..

Novak is worth it! We had almost no spacing, penetration or ball movement and that means that the Heat could just play their zone, which allows them to be within 2 steps of the paint and the 3 point line. The main reason is that Lebron and Wade are so fast that they can close off the paint and still get back to the 3pt line. However, we didn't even have any penetration to draw them away from Novak. They could just have someone stay right near him cuz our offense was too simple and predictable and it didn't force the D to adjust and cover the entire court. This year we'll have more penetration and spacing so Novak should be able to get open looks. Also we didn't set enough picks for Novak to get open or use him coming off curls. This is partly Woody's fault for going away from those plays that worked.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=42372&page=2

you wrote this, and the reason why I posted this, is because you also included your usual videos. Pretty much endorsing the deal the same way you are doing both beno and bargnani. hey, I guess keep endorsing questionable signings you will get one right one day, I assume...

I am curious, are there any moves the knicks made you don't endorse?

now you are not the only one who endorsed the novak deal, but you seem to be the only or one of the few who keeps knocking the guys you once endorsed.....

Camby is nothing and was nothing last year. Novak wasn't the same player. His contract and Fields' contract on the bench at the same time is a big waste of salary space. Two of the three picks are nothing because they are late second rounders. The other was a compromised pick and will be a late first rounder. Also, aside from the projected second to last pick in the draft the picks aren't for several years. Hate for the players on the team aside, they are a 50+ win team with a window for how long they will be competitive. The picks given up to bring in a guy with Bargs unique ability weren't much and the players selected will not be a part of this current core. Again, not gonna sweat the Knicks not having a guy for Bayhawks next year or 2017.

One question about CAmby. I believe the guy turns 40 this year. Isn't your complaint with the knicks that they spent their 3.1 mil on older vets? Not sure why you are sweating a guy that is old and couldn't get on the court when I believe the Pablo, Beno and Metta signings were criticized by you because of their age.

no it isn't.. my complaint is that we used it on guys that didn't fit a need...

I believe the Pablo, Beno and Metta signings were criticized by you because of their age.

you believe wrong... I criticized pablo because we gave him more money and yes there were younger options I thought were better..

Aretest I criticized because I don't think we needed a SF who is on a steep decline..

Beno would have been ok for me, had we not wasted the money on pablo..

Camby is nothing and was nothing last year. Novak wasn't the same player. His contract and Fields' contract on the bench at the same time is a big waste of salary space. Two of the three picks are nothing because they are late second rounders. The other was a compromised pick and will be a late first rounder. Also, aside from the projected second to last pick in the draft the picks aren't for several years. Hate for the players on the team aside, they are a 50+ win team with a window for how long they will be competitive

No on was singing that tune then.. they were trying to justify it the very same way you and others are trying to justify this.. so why should these moves be any different? It is not like you guys are saying the moves just didn't work out, now yall are completely going opposite of what was said when the moves were made... we gave up 2 picks for camby and then included him in a trade where we gave away another 3 picks..as i said before, camby was directly or indirectly cost us 5 picks... wow!!

Hate for the players on the team aside, they are a 50+ win team with a window for how long they will be competitive.

That is not enough to mortgage the future for. You can get that without having to put together a mash unit like we have... I thought the goal was to be contenders.. we won 54 games last year.. I see less than 50 this year.. then what will you fall back on when you can't say " we won 50+ games".... I think the window has closed, the east is younger and better.. we are trying to take scrap heap players and package them as top quality products.. that don't work...

we sign novak.... "GREAT SIGNING", we trade novak.. " HE WAS USELESS"

this happens with almost every move the knicks make.. and anyone who says... lets taper expectations, are considered haters.. but cool I can't wait to see the opinions on beno, metta, and AB in a few months...

If your future is two late second round picks, one in 2017 and a compromised first rounder in 2016 and that is what you are waiting for to become good then as a gm expect to be unemployed and as a fan expect your team to suck really bad for a long time.

THE FUTure is the numerous first round picks, second round picks, young players, cap flexibility.. all of that rolled into one.. stick your head in the sand.. tomorrow is going to come.. and when the knicks are sitting here with no picks, an aging team, no rings, paying a 31 year old carmelo 25 mil for the next 5 years, I hope you are happy.... Talk about dark days ahead..

ChuckBuck wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:C- Melo is still on the team...

This:

A fair question to anyone who sees the Knicks’ offseason as anything less than super productive and yet another step in the right direction should be asked what more the team could have done in its quest to overthrow Miami.

Use the best available advanced stats to actually upgrade rather than downgrade the roster.
Or admit that this is not going to be a championship contending team and start over.

How is that sports?! Do some sums, type them into a computer and if the computer says no, give up.

You and your metrics!

Hey it worked for Billy Beane in Moneyball! Look how many champi....he didn't win any?!!??!

Nevermind.

Makes for a great movie though!

Personally, I thought that movie was over rated!

Those metrics are so overrated right now it's ridiculous! Here are the only formula you need to know:

Tim Duncan= championship
Kobe Bryant + Phil Jackson + Shaq= championship
Kobe Bryant + Phil Jackson + Pau Gasol= championship
MJ + Pippen= championship
Wade + Shaq + Riley= championship
Wade + Lebron + Bosh= championship
Stephon Marbury + Eddy Curry + Jerome James= no championship

tkf wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:You have to at least measure the value of the players Grunwald added for practically nothing. The players brought in are an upgrade over the players being replaced. They don't negatively impact the future and should give the team a boost over the next 2 years. I wonder exactly what were peoples expectations before the summer that would make these moves a disappointment? Were people expecting some big time FA being added with no money to offer? We kept a winning team mostly in tact and added to that talent in a meaningful way.

what is practically nothing?

Are 3 picks practically nothing?

Is camby practically nothing?

Is novak practically nothing? because when we gave him a new deal, you didn't think that was nothing..

Novak is worth it! We had almost no spacing, penetration or ball movement and that means that the Heat could just play their zone, which allows them to be within 2 steps of the paint and the 3 point line. The main reason is that Lebron and Wade are so fast that they can close off the paint and still get back to the 3pt line. However, we didn't even have any penetration to draw them away from Novak. They could just have someone stay right near him cuz our offense was too simple and predictable and it didn't force the D to adjust and cover the entire court. This year we'll have more penetration and spacing so Novak should be able to get open looks. Also we didn't set enough picks for Novak to get open or use him coming off curls. This is partly Woody's fault for going away from those plays that worked.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=42372&page=2

you wrote this, and the reason why I posted this, is because you also included your usual videos. Pretty much endorsing the deal the same way you are doing both beno and bargnani. hey, I guess keep endorsing questionable signings you will get one right one day, I assume...

I am curious, are there any moves the knicks made you don't endorse?

now you are not the only one who endorsed the novak deal, but you seem to be the only or one of the few who keeps knocking the guys you once endorsed.....

Camby is nothing and was nothing last year. Novak wasn't the same player. His contract and Fields' contract on the bench at the same time is a big waste of salary space. Two of the three picks are nothing because they are late second rounders. The other was a compromised pick and will be a late first rounder. Also, aside from the projected second to last pick in the draft the picks aren't for several years. Hate for the players on the team aside, they are a 50+ win team with a window for how long they will be competitive. The picks given up to bring in a guy with Bargs unique ability weren't much and the players selected will not be a part of this current core. Again, not gonna sweat the Knicks not having a guy for Bayhawks next year or 2017.

One question about CAmby. I believe the guy turns 40 this year. Isn't your complaint with the knicks that they spent their 3.1 mil on older vets? Not sure why you are sweating a guy that is old and couldn't get on the court when I believe the Pablo, Beno and Metta signings were criticized by you because of their age.

no it isn't.. my complaint is that we used it on guys that didn't fit a need...

I believe the Pablo, Beno and Metta signings were criticized by you because of their age.

you believe wrong... I criticized pablo because we gave him more money and yes there were younger options I thought were better..

Aretest I criticized because I don't think we needed a SF who is on a steep decline..

Beno would have been ok for me, had we not wasted the money on pablo..

Camby is nothing and was nothing last year. Novak wasn't the same player. His contract and Fields' contract on the bench at the same time is a big waste of salary space. Two of the three picks are nothing because they are late second rounders. The other was a compromised pick and will be a late first rounder. Also, aside from the projected second to last pick in the draft the picks aren't for several years. Hate for the players on the team aside, they are a 50+ win team with a window for how long they will be competitive

No on was singing that tune then.. they were trying to justify it the very same way you and others are trying to justify this.. so why should these moves be any different? It is not like you guys are saying the moves just didn't work out, now yall are completely going opposite of what was said when the moves were made... we gave up 2 picks for camby and then included him in a trade where we gave away another 3 picks..as i said before, camby was directly or indirectly cost us 5 picks... wow!!

Hate for the players on the team aside, they are a 50+ win team with a window for how long they will be competitive.

That is not enough to mortgage the future for. You can get that without having to put together a mash unit like we have... I thought the goal was to be contenders.. we won 54 games last year.. I see less than 50 this year.. then what will you fall back on when you can't say " we won 50+ games".... I think the window has closed, the east is younger and better.. we are trying to take scrap heap players and package them as top quality products.. that don't work...

we sign novak.... "GREAT SIGNING", we trade novak.. " HE WAS USELESS"

this happens with almost every move the knicks make.. and anyone who says... lets taper expectations, are considered haters.. but cool I can't wait to see the opinions on beno, metta, and AB in a few months...

If your future is two late second round picks, one in 2017 and a compromised first rounder in 2016 and that is what you are waiting for to become good then as a gm expect to be unemployed and as a fan expect your team to suck really bad for a long time.

THE FUTure is the numerous first round picks, second round picks, young players, cap flexibility.. all of that rolled into one.. stick your head in the sand.. tomorrow is going to come.. and when the knicks are sitting here with no picks, an aging team, no rings, paying a 31 year old carmelo 25 mil for the next 5 years, I hope you are happy.... Talk about dark days ahead..

I am not as down on Melo as you are but if he opts out and asks for $25mm per year Kobe type deal, we better walk away from him fast. That just shows winning is not his first priority and he has no interest in us getting some real help to put around him (not the JR's and Bargnani's of the world). I am very interested to see how that situation is going to play out. We all know that the worst owner in the league will have no problem giving him that money and leaving us hamstrung for the next 5-6 years after that.