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Summer Reading: Five Reasons We Love Pablo Prigioni
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foosballnick
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7/26/2013  7:18 AM
TeamBall wrote:
dk7th wrote:
TeamBall wrote:
dk7th wrote:no matter what you have to maximize prigioni's minutes with both chandler and stoudemire. and you can't have prigioni and melo on the floor at the same time.

the knicks will regress this season and i am proposing alternatives and strategies to make them better when it counts.

a visual rhetorical flourish does nothing to further the discussion. do you even understand the statement you bolded?


Ok i'll give you that I should have provided an opinion or more of a response. With that said, could you explain why Melo and Pablo shouldnt be on the floor together?

I'll take a shot at explaining.

DK posts here multiple times every day about how the Knicks suck. If Pablo plays with Melo and this makes the Knicks better, it will mean either DK has one less thing to complain about, or his complaints will lose credibility.

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IronWillGiroud
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7/26/2013  8:33 AM
what dk is saying is that, because pablo will dish the rock but melo only will shoot it,

they can't be there together because melo will not let pablo do what he do

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ChuckBuck
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7/26/2013  8:39 AM
Didn't they go 16-2 in the regular season with Pablo and Melo starting together?
RonRon
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7/26/2013  9:44 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/26/2013  5:47 PM
IronWillGiroud wrote:what dk is saying is that, because pablo will dish the rock but melo only will shoot it,

they can't be there together because melo will not let pablo do what he do


It is quite self explanatory
DK is saying...


Pablo
============

Pablo makes players around him better, rewarding them with cuts, ball movement, and playing as a TEAM
That was why Pablo had a connection with Copeland, Copeland know's how to play off the ball and as a legit option after he sets a pick, willing to pass the ball to the open man if he draws extra defenders on him

Players like Kmart/Amare/Chandler/Novak, needs a PG's to initiate the offense for them and utilize them as an option
It allows players to feel a part the game and keep focused on both ends

It even helps players like JR, Iman, Felton, and Bargnani get in rhythm, even though they have the ability to get their own shot off most of the time

but


Melo
=============

Melo does what he wants to do, what he wants OVERRULES ALL, if Melo wants the ball in ISO, he is getting the ball in ISO, if he wants the ball in the 3pt line, or whatever, while everyone on team will just stand around and be unable to anticipate how Melo will try to score or if he will even pass back out
So the team doesn't want to CUT or when to go for an Offensive rebound, taking the lane away from Melo and a possible move he might make by drawing an extra defender over
All while the DEFENSE can anticipate how Melo will likely try to score and get ready for the rebound and initiate the fast break before our defense can get set


Like in the game with Boston and "Honey Nut Cheerios" KG got in Melo's head and it was obvious he lost it "mentally" and even when he was missing shots, Melo demanded the ball and was unwilling to settle for anything else

Melo has to learn to play OFF the ball and do other things effectively, saving his stamina and energy for a more balanced usage rate
There are only 5 guys on the floor and when 1 player is not trying to do other things to help the team, it becomes a chain reaction


Team
=============


Melo and JR are obviously our #1 and #2 scoring options, at least last season, however this season, we have added Bargnani, STAT (if healthy), and Felton that is 5 legit scoring options in addition to the development/growth of Iman, Tim Hardaway JR
We added some scoring ability/weapons, it is up to Woodson to maximize the team's abilities, and not just Melo's ability to score


Melo needs to make some changes to his game, some are just mental/trust issues, decision making, consistently looking to attack the opponents DEF as a whole and not by himself, and finding the balance between ISO scoring/utilizing his team mates as options


If Melo wants to be a leader and a legit #1 scoring option he needs to improve his efficiency/consistency and be able to balance out scoring/with creating for the team
Is he going to be JUST a high volume scorer?
If so, we need a legit #1 option that Melo can play off of like a Tim Duncan

Hopefully another summer with Hakeem will allow him to understand that and gain some abilities to be a much more complete/better basketball player/team mate/leader/#1 scoring option and while finding the BALANCE in utilizing his team mates


1- gain the ability to create higher % shots (whether it is Melo taking the shot or his team mates)
2- creating for the team, utilizing all players on the floor as options, and not to just earn room for him to go 1v1
3- be a much better facilitator, finding the balance between scoring and looking to get his team mates involved


How many times have we seen Melo go ISO for 3-4 possessions, miss on a contested shot, and then JR Smith feels like it his "his turn" to go ISO on contested jumpers and try to create/answer back with a basket, and then the other 3 players on the our team, lose focus a bit on both ends and lose any rhythm on Offense that they might have had earlier
This is all on top of the other team, taking WIDE OPEN SHOT's with a couple of passes or/and fast breaks/layups


Woodson enables all this last year, it looks great when we hit the shot, but it does not make a bad shot a good shot just because it goes in
Unfortunately, both Melo and JR, have had this habit for too long, and it would be tough to change, because they don't even realize what a good % shot is anymore, believing/feeling they can hit anything as long as they have the ability to get the shot off


We were the only team in the playoffs last year that played with little movement/passes and did look to attack an opponents DEFENSE as a WHOLE
Woodson has a lot of work/changes to make with his coaching staff, with the rest of the players, both on and off the court

nyshakespeare
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7/26/2013  10:38 AM
Prigioni was great all year, but in the postseason:

According to NBA.com/Stats, with Prigioni on the floor, the Knicks have their highest Offensive Rating (points per 100 possessions) and their best Defensive Rating (points allowed per 100 possessions). When the point guard is on the floor, the Knicks’ Offensive Rating (OffRtg) is 109.4, while their Defensive Rating (DefRtg) is 85.4 This makes Prigioni’s Net Rating (NetRtg) on the floor 24.0, the highest of any Knick receiving regular minutes. (Only James White has a higher NetRtg, and he’s played just nine minutes all playoffs, thus making his stats easily inflatable). With Prigioni off the floor, the Knicks’ OffRtg and DefRtg fall to 94.2 and 98.2, respectively, meaning, basically, the Knicks are losing when Pablo isn’t playing.
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TeamBall
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7/26/2013  4:42 PM
IronWillGiroud wrote:what dk is saying is that, because pablo will dish the rock but melo only will shoot it,

they can't be there together because melo will not let pablo do what he do


So how do you explain the run the Knicks went on when Pablo was inserted in the starting lineup at the end of the season? And your simple explanation actually gives more of a reason for them to be on the court. If one only passes and the other only shoots, wouldnt they work well together? I dont actually believe its that simple but im commenting on your response.
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CrushAlot
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7/26/2013  4:48 PM
TeamBall wrote:
IronWillGiroud wrote:what dk is saying is that, because pablo will dish the rock but melo only will shoot it,

they can't be there together because melo will not let pablo do what he do


So how do you explain the run the Knicks went on when Pablo was inserted in the starting lineup at the end of the season? And your simple explanation actually gives more of a reason for them to be on the court. If one only passes and the other only shoots, wouldnt they work well together? I dont actually believe its that simple but im commenting on your response.

Also, IWG you have been very honest about not watching games this year. What is your assessment based on?

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dk7th
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7/26/2013  4:54 PM
ChuckBuck wrote:Didn't they go 16-2 in the regular season with Pablo and Melo starting together?

in the starting lineup for 13-14 thread 1 poster out of 19 wanted to see prigioni starting.

maybe you and others would like to change your vote unless you haven't voted.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
dk7th
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7/26/2013  4:56 PM
TeamBall wrote:
IronWillGiroud wrote:what dk is saying is that, because pablo will dish the rock but melo only will shoot it,

they can't be there together because melo will not let pablo do what he do


So how do you explain the run the Knicks went on when Pablo was inserted in the starting lineup at the end of the season? And your simple explanation actually gives more of a reason for them to be on the court. If one only passes and the other only shoots, wouldnt they work well together? I dont actually believe its that simple but im commenting on your response.

in the starting lineup for 13-14 thread 1 poster out of 19 wanted to see prigioni starting.

maybe you and others would like to change your vote unless you haven't voted.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
TeamBall
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7/26/2013  5:02 PM
dk7th wrote:
TeamBall wrote:
IronWillGiroud wrote:what dk is saying is that, because pablo will dish the rock but melo only will shoot it,

they can't be there together because melo will not let pablo do what he do


So how do you explain the run the Knicks went on when Pablo was inserted in the starting lineup at the end of the season? And your simple explanation actually gives more of a reason for them to be on the court. If one only passes and the other only shoots, wouldnt they work well together? I dont actually believe its that simple but im commenting on your response.

in the starting lineup for 13-14 thread 1 poster out of 19 wanted to see prigioni starting.

maybe you and others would like to change your vote unless you haven't voted.


I did not vote but what does that have to do with your previous statement that they should not play together?
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SupremeCommander
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7/26/2013  5:04 PM
nyshakespeare wrote:Prigioni was great all year, but in the postseason:

According to NBA.com/Stats, with Prigioni on the floor, the Knicks have their highest Offensive Rating (points per 100 possessions) and their best Defensive Rating (points allowed per 100 possessions). When the point guard is on the floor, the Knicks’ Offensive Rating (OffRtg) is 109.4, while their Defensive Rating (DefRtg) is 85.4 This makes Prigioni’s Net Rating (NetRtg) on the floor 24.0, the highest of any Knick receiving regular minutes. (Only James White has a higher NetRtg, and he’s played just nine minutes all playoffs, thus making his stats easily inflatable). With Prigioni off the floor, the Knicks’ OffRtg and DefRtg fall to 94.2 and 98.2, respectively, meaning, basically, the Knicks are losing when Pablo isn’t playing.

there's a case of advanced stats meaning something... the Knicks played a superior brand of basketball with Prigs on the floor. Sometimes you'd wish he'd shoot but that's kind of a good problem to have

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ChuckBuck
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7/26/2013  5:21 PM
dk7th wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:Didn't they go 16-2 in the regular season with Pablo and Melo starting together?

in the starting lineup for 13-14 thread 1 poster out of 19 wanted to see prigioni starting.

maybe you and others would like to change your vote unless you haven't voted.

Starting or coming off the bench, doesn't matter, their will points in the game when Pablo and Melo will be on the floor together.

All our point is that having Pablo and Melo at the same time is a good thing no matter what.

Your whole point is that it will be bad thing due to your blind Melo hate.

As many posters have provided with advanced stats, team records, and logic, you're completely wrong.

CrushAlot
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7/26/2013  5:25 PM
ChuckBuck wrote:
dk7th wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:Didn't they go 16-2 in the regular season with Pablo and Melo starting together?

in the starting lineup for 13-14 thread 1 poster out of 19 wanted to see prigioni starting.

maybe you and others would like to change your vote unless you haven't voted.

Starting or coming off the bench, doesn't matter, their will points in the game when Pablo and Melo will be on the floor together.

All our point is that having Pablo and Melo at the same time is a good thing no matter what.

Your whole point is that it will be bad thing due to your blind Melo hate.

As many posters have provided with advanced stats, team records, and logic, you're completely wrong.

Also, Posting and Toasting had an article confirming that a line up with Pablo, Melo, and others was the Knicks most efficient I believe. It was awhile ago.
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dk7th
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7/26/2013  8:02 PM
RonRon wrote:
IronWillGiroud wrote:what dk is saying is that, because pablo will dish the rock but melo only will shoot it,

they can't be there together because melo will not let pablo do what he do


It is quite self explanatory
DK is saying...


Pablo
============

Pablo makes players around him better, rewarding them with cuts, ball movement, and playing as a TEAM
That was why Pablo had a connection with Copeland, Copeland know's how to play off the ball and as a legit option after he sets a pick, willing to pass the ball to the open man if he draws extra defenders on him

Players like Kmart/Amare/Chandler/Novak, needs a PG's to initiate the offense for them and utilize them as an option
It allows players to feel a part the game and keep focused on both ends

It even helps players like JR, Iman, Felton, and Bargnani get in rhythm, even though they have the ability to get their own shot off most of the time

but


Melo
=============

Melo does what he wants to do, what he wants OVERRULES ALL, if Melo wants the ball in ISO, he is getting the ball in ISO, if he wants the ball in the 3pt line, or whatever, while everyone on team will just stand around and be unable to anticipate how Melo will try to score or if he will even pass back out
So the team doesn't want to CUT or when to go for an Offensive rebound, taking the lane away from Melo and a possible move he might make by drawing an extra defender over
All while the DEFENSE can anticipate how Melo will likely try to score and get ready for the rebound and initiate the fast break before our defense can get set


Like in the game with Boston and "Honey Nut Cheerios" KG got in Melo's head and it was obvious he lost it "mentally" and even when he was missing shots, Melo demanded the ball and was unwilling to settle for anything else

Melo has to learn to play OFF the ball and do other things effectively, saving his stamina and energy for a more balanced usage rate
There are only 5 guys on the floor and when 1 player is not trying to do other things to help the team, it becomes a chain reaction


Team
=============


Melo and JR are obviously our #1 and #2 scoring options, at least last season, however this season, we have added Bargnani, STAT (if healthy), and Felton that is 5 legit scoring options in addition to the development/growth of Iman, Tim Hardaway JR
We added some scoring ability/weapons, it is up to Woodson to maximize the team's abilities, and not just Melo's ability to score


Melo needs to make some changes to his game, some are just mental/trust issues, decision making, consistently looking to attack the opponents DEF as a whole and not by himself, and finding the balance between ISO scoring/utilizing his team mates as options


If Melo wants to be a leader and a legit #1 scoring option he needs to improve his efficiency/consistency and be able to balance out scoring/with creating for the team
Is he going to be JUST a high volume scorer?
If so, we need a legit #1 option that Melo can play off of like a Tim Duncan

Hopefully another summer with Hakeem will allow him to understand that and gain some abilities to be a much more complete/better basketball player/team mate/leader/#1 scoring option and while finding the BALANCE in utilizing his team mates


1- gain the ability to create higher % shots (whether it is Melo taking the shot or his team mates)
2- creating for the team, utilizing all players on the floor as options, and not to just earn room for him to go 1v1
3- be a much better facilitator, finding the balance between scoring and looking to get his team mates involved


How many times have we seen Melo go ISO for 3-4 possessions, miss on a contested shot, and then JR Smith feels like it his "his turn" to go ISO on contested jumpers and try to create/answer back with a basket, and then the other 3 players on the our team, lose focus a bit on both ends and lose any rhythm on Offense that they might have had earlier
This is all on top of the other team, taking WIDE OPEN SHOT's with a couple of passes or/and fast breaks/layups


Woodson enables all this last year, it looks great when we hit the shot, but it does not make a bad shot a good shot just because it goes in
Unfortunately, both Melo and JR, have had this habit for too long, and it would be tough to change, because they don't even realize what a good % shot is anymore, believing/feeling they can hit anything as long as they have the ability to get the shot off


We were the only team in the playoffs last year that played with little movement/passes and did look to attack an opponents DEFENSE as a WHOLE
Woodson has a lot of work/changes to make with his coaching staff, with the rest of the players, both on and off the court

look man and you should know i give praise sparingly: this is a superb contribution and it should be published.

you have a keen eye and mind and i respect that. now, with that in mind-- i looked at a few minutes of the melo-hakeem video footage. i gotta tell you... i am not hopeful he is a good enough student of the master.

secondly, and here is an issue that really needs resolving if melo is ever going to earn his outrageous price tag to the knicks: i think melo is a tweener but he is so limited that he should choose to work on only one of two playmaking skillsets... either post moves or moves off the dribble a la pierce. personally i think melo's feet are a HUGE obstacle for him. just like too many players have "bad hands" like tyson chandler does, many players have "bad feet." melo is one of those players and frankly dwight howard too. ironic that, as sucky as bynum has been, he actually has some legit post moves, and that means, for me at least, that he has "good feet."

i cannot foresee carmelo anthony actually expanding his game to get to the next level. he just is not balletic enough and you need to have the footwork of a good dancer in the nba if you want to be great. doesn't mean i don't root for him to do so! and if i could give him advice, given his "bad feet," i would suggest he work on his post moves going forward.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
blkexec
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7/27/2013  12:50 PM
Five reasons we have knick fans like dk?
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7/27/2013  1:05 PM
blkexec wrote:Five reasons we have knick fans like dk?
One reason is because he was banned from realgm.
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RonRon
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7/27/2013  2:20 PM
he gives constructive criticism, rather than just plain bashing that some posters do here
I think there are some truth to his opinions but they are too harsh for some to swallow, especially being Knick fans
He gave credit to JR and Felton when they played well for us in the season
However in the playoffs, JR and Melo reverted back to the be the players with their bad habits, inefficient ways, and poor decision making for us
Felton generally played well for us but he is not a starting PG material vs teams that are contenders, especially when he cannot defend the PG or SG position with consistency


I think they (JR/MELO) both deserve some blame along with Chandler's inability to defend Hibbert, but more importantly, Woodson deserves the most blame
He enables both JR and Melo instead of correcting their bad habits, poor shot selections, and 1v1 style of plays
That style of play, makes 4 other players stand around to do NOTHING and unable to get in rhythm or anticipate when to cut in for layup or for an offensive board, because they could draw an extra defender over to limit JR/MELO's moves


The team doesn't know if JR or Melo will try to score with a 3pt shot, midrange shot, go in to to finish, draw a foul, or/and or drive in to kick out
But our opponents DEFENSE have the ability to anticipate the offensive rebound and initiate a fast break before our defense is set for easy shots, especially when they shoot 30% on 60 shots each


Unlike DK, I think JR had improved much last year but Woodson was putting line ups that did not allow him to penetrate and dish back out when Hibbert is protecting the paint
With Hibbert protecting the paint in addition to the good 1v1 DEFENSE the Pacer's have with the combination of size/athleticism/speed, Lance Stephenson was a big part of that with Paul George


Playing Copeland and now Bargnani at PF/C allows JR to do so, with shooters to space the floor, and Hibbert cheating like he did
However, Copeland showed much improvement on REB's, DEF effort, and putting a body on his man during our late stretch to finish the season, in addition to his ability to score efficiently and a high FG % and 3pt %


Yes, Copeland had a bad 10minutes of TOTAL TIME when he started 1 game vs the Celtics, but he also was missing the piece that plays well with him, PABLO
If anyone including Melo/JR had a bad 10minutes TOTAL time in a entire game, would they quickly be demoted to the 10th-11th man while they showed the ability to be consistent for many games prior to 1 game?


I don't understand Woodson's continued usage is using FAKE starters that play for 4-5 minutes stretches in quarters 1 and 3, while we need OFFENSE and JR and Copeland were on the bench not being utilized, and while either 1 player could be used as the 6th type role for offense
Before the playoffs even started, I said, that we must keep Copeland's confidence high and build off it, because we need his ability to advance in the play offs
However, I said, I had a feeling Woodson would demote him back to the bench like he has done all year, even though he was great for us in the 10 games or so to close to season to get the 54 wins


DK is similar to the complete OPPOSITE of NixLuva, who is very optimistic of every Knick player and looks at the best scenario for each player and the team as a whole as the likely hood
DK is extremely negative on the certain players, Woodson, and the franchise, but some of which he has reason to doubt


As a Knick's fan, I still see the flaws that we have as a team, and individual's
I hope they could corrected and most of the problems start with Woodson, his philosophies on DEF and OFF, and then Melo/JR's negative attributes
I think JR's contract is an asset unlike DK, considering we could not use his salary for another player instead, and that JR outplays players on BOTH ends that make more than him, sometimes even players that make more than double and more than what he makes that got contracts this summer (not even including Amare)

Yes JR and Melo take bad shots but as head coach, he has the ability to do something about it
He doesn't have to bench them, but simply let them know we don't need that, EVIL STARE, and not even YELL at them ALL the time to treat them like children
Treat them like adults and when it all doesn't work, BENCH them to set a statement in a regular season game to correct their habits in time for the play offs, then talk to them after the game without attacking them with the media
The truth is, we need both Melo's and JR's talents to possibly be contenders but they must make some changes and sacrifices for the better of the team


The thing is, does Woodson even have this "ability" as head coach or does Melo/JR do anything they please and Woodson has no control over it?
Freedom given to low IQ basketball players, with bad habits, poor decision making, and sometimes "selfish" is not a good thing, RUN PLAYS!


Again, I hope Melo can use Hakeem's training to be a better leader, complete basketball player, efficient scorer, and be able to create for his team in a consistent/efficient rate
But I do agree with DK that it is unlikely from what I see of Melo's foot work and given, Melo's history, that Melo will likely look to boost his "STAT's" so he can command a max 5 year extension or 4 year with another team, next summer

If you actually watch the video's on youtube, you can see that Hakeem is trying to teach Melo the foot work/philosophy behind the moves so there can be counters or/and enable him create for his team mates, by drawing help defenders for easy high % shots
Instead, Melo revert's to "try to do it his way" by using strength or quickness rather than using footwork and the moves itself
I hope Melo is ready this year to admit he has to make changes/sacrifices to his game and is able to learn from Hakeem to be the complete, efficient player, and creator that Hakeem's training would allow him to be IF HE WORK's on it *IT WILL TAKE TIME AND EFFORT TO MASTER, NOT JUST 2 WEEKS*

playa2
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7/27/2013  4:05 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/27/2013  4:13 PM
Another reason why the knicks signed Prigioni to that 3 yr deal is because Knicks Jersey sales are picking up in Argentina according to Pablo , he see's knicks Jersey's all over Argentina now.

Copeland is from Newark , no new sales there. The politics and business sometimes gets in the way of the knicks winning.

JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
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7/27/2013  4:07 PM
This team hardly moves without the ball. We either pick and roll or post up. Both plays require spacing the floor. No cutting, no offball screens. Pablo is simply an unselfish spot up shooter on offense. He doesn't make our offense go. He's not quick enough to attack the paint consistently, he's no threat to actually score inside even if he wanted to, and the majority of his kickouts don't end up in open shots. He doesn't collapse the defense period. He's simply not that good. He plays some good defense against backups and can hit the 3 ball well. That doesn't constitute some great backup PG. None of the intangibles he brings can change the fact that he is too slow to be doing the majority of the ball handling.
blkexec
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7/28/2013  1:34 AM
tj23 wrote:This team hardly moves without the ball. We either pick and roll or post up. Both plays require spacing the floor. No cutting, no offball screens. Pablo is simply an unselfish spot up shooter on offense. He doesn't make our offense go. He's not quick enough to attack the paint consistently, he's no threat to actually score inside even if he wanted to, and the majority of his kickouts don't end up in open shots. He doesn't collapse the defense period. He's simply not that good. He plays some good defense against backups and can hit the 3 ball well. That doesn't constitute some great backup PG. None of the intangibles he brings can change the fact that he is too slow to be doing the majority of the ball handling.

Love it or hate it, he's our best PG.

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
Summer Reading: Five Reasons We Love Pablo Prigioni

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