Nalod wrote:City messed that one up bad!

I figure it will take 20 years to do this which is all the renovation is likely good for. there was talk of knocking down the post office next door and build a garden there.

This year the big buzz will be the "flying bridge"!

I remember that...think they lost a bid or something but, they did want to move it there. How crazy would it be if they moved to Nassau County? Don't see that actually happening but, I would personally welcome such a move.

The big point that hit me was who owned it. The city did not own it, the Penn Rail road company did! IN an era of declining rail use and likley that building was expensive to maintain. It was freaking huge!!!!

So in a way, it was not the romantic sad notion of an era gone by but the economics of what 1 and 2 penn plaza bought.

I wonder could that building have survived or eventually been basterized into some kind of "Mall" over time? Could portions have been reutilized in some other manner?

NO doubt the building was a cathedral of sorts not found in the "new world" often and its a shame we lost it.

At least we have Grand Central Station still!

JesseDark wrote:Don't think the city gets any property tax revenue from the garden. This was a controversey a few years back.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/nyregion/31garden.html?_r=0

Nalod wrote:MSG bought the LA Forum a few years ago. Not to worry, the City makes way too much tax revenue off the Garden to let it go away.

MSG is one of the top grossing venues in the world. The taxes on revenue, not the property tax.

Ticket sales, food (via venders), beverage, salaries created and add tax revenue from hotel and food tax in area hotel and restaurants in the city. A lot of people come to games, concert, conventions form out of town!

Nalod wrote:

JesseDark wrote:Don't think the city gets any property tax revenue from the garden. This was a controversey a few years back.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/nyregion/31garden.html?_r=0

Nalod wrote:MSG bought the LA Forum a few years ago. Not to worry, the City makes way too much tax revenue off the Garden to let it go away.

MSG is one of the top grossing venues in the world. The taxes on revenue, not the property tax.

Ticket sales, food (via venders), beverage, salaries created and add tax revenue from hotel and food tax in area hotel and restaurants in the city. A lot of people come to games, concert, conventions form out of town!

PresIke wrote:

Nalod wrote:So in a way, it was not the romantic sad notion of an era gone by but the economics of what 1 and 2 penn plaza bought.

hmm...well, i don't recall all the details, but both jane jacobs and robert caro, the author of 'the power broker: robert moses and the fall of ny' a person who if folks don't know of and you are from nyc should do yourself a favor and learn who he is...he is certainly a predecessor to the approach mayor's like giuliani and bloomberg have taken towards city development), might not really agree with you here.

the economics to maintain the building? is there actual evidence of this as being THAT significant of a factor? i don't recall hearing that as a real reason it was taken down.

the taking down of penn station was the last big move in a history of such moves until 30 years later with giuliani's times sqaure plan (including construction of the cross bronx expressway...which effectively put the bronx into a period of economic collapse) that had to do with the obsession with modernism in early post-wwii america, white flight to the suburbs, economic downturns in urban areas, resulting from the decline of america in manufacturing that started in the 1960's and powerful, rich men making decisions about how to 'fix' this problem at the behest of the public interest, and particularly those with less of a voice in politics and economic development of their own communities. there are other factors as well, i am sure, but these are perhaps the most significant.

LIke I said, the economics of what moderization could bring. YOu have a lot in that post.

MOst decisions are based on wealth creation and ecnomic development. Nets were the catalyst anchor tentant to the atlantic yards project which on paper was supposed to be huge. Regarding the decline of american manufactering based on moderism thats way too long a subject to properly discuss.

Moses was instrumental in the Dodgers and Giants leaving NYC. Who leaves NYC? He wanted a stadium to for the worlds fair.

Cleaning up times square was a bad idea?

Dolan blocked having a domed stadiam on manhatten. It would have taken revenue from the garden.

JesseDark wrote:How about moving it to the Javits center, basicaly a few blocks over.

+1

Nalod wrote:

dk7th wrote:it was all part of the delusional thinking that robert moses brought. cars and modernization and basically an elitist mindset. he really made a mess of new york. we could have been on a par with european cities with a comprehensive railway system.

How? Subway system is one of the best in the world?

The Euro model is in place because of density of cities. North East has pretty good amtrak, not high speed mind you but cars/highways made plentiful while creating sprawl, worked for a long time.

Energy going forward will still be inexpensive compared to rest of world. In fact, MPG standards and electric are reducing demand quite a bit.

The Euromodel of transport works but your talking about socialized countries. Big game changer.

subway could have been far more extensive but it was cheaper to tear down neighborhoods to build comparatively cheap arteries like the cross bronx and what have you. also i was referring to the LIRR being underdeveloped as well. money was put into roadways for long island to prevent lesser-monied people from gaining access to long island and its treasures.

now it's impossible to exert eminent domain, never mind the ability of the wealthy to fork over enough dough to make changes that are now impossible to make anyway. the demand for socialism is a red herring. all i am saying is that at one time there was a different, better, and more costly course of action the powers that be could have taken for the general good and for posterity's sake, especially less crime in neighborhoods which have good infrastructure and don't rely on automobiles and gasoline.

alternatively, when i think of amtrak i think of the us postal service.

Nalod wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Nalod wrote:

dk7th wrote:it was all part of the delusional thinking that robert moses brought. cars and modernization and basically an elitist mindset. he really made a mess of new york. we could have been on a par with european cities with a comprehensive railway system.

How? Subway system is one of the best in the world?

The Euro model is in place because of density of cities. North East has pretty good amtrak, not high speed mind you but cars/highways made plentiful while creating sprawl, worked for a long time.

Energy going forward will still be inexpensive compared to rest of world. In fact, MPG standards and electric are reducing demand quite a bit.

The Euromodel of transport works but your talking about socialized countries. Big game changer.

subway could have been far more extensive but it was cheaper to tear down neighborhoods to build comparatively cheap arteries like the cross bronx and what have you. also i was referring to the LIRR being underdeveloped as well. money was put into roadways for long island to prevent lesser-monied people from gaining access to long island and its treasures.

now it's impossible to exert eminent domain, never mind the ability of the wealthy to fork over enough dough to make changes that are now impossible to make anyway. the demand for socialism is a red herring. all i am saying is that at one time there was a different, better, and more costly course of action the powers that be could have taken for the general good and for posterity's sake, especially less crime in neighborhoods which have good infrastructure and don't rely on automobiles and gasoline.

alternatively, when i think of amtrak i think of the us postal service.

YOu bring up good points and admittingly I have not lived in NYC in 28 years nor studied it in some time. I had done a bit of reading on Moses and the "Vision" of modernism.

Long islands demographics have changed so much over years and real estate prices in the metro area make life difficult for many.

I was very naive and thought NYC was the greatest place in the world! I spend my high school years and went to college on the island and it was great. When I saw there are other ways to live I was intrigued to see how. I don't hate on NYC or Metro area but I can breath in the Carolinas and make a good living at the same time. Whats funny is all my friends are "refugees" from the north east as well and been here 20 plus years as well!

moses really destroyed the city (all boroughs including queens and nassau) by giving primacy to the automobile. that's really the bottom line. nowadays the only way to combat congestion is carpooling and biking. new york could have been so much better if there were more rails, be they above or below ground. it would have meant fewer accidents, vehicular homicides, livery services, less pollution, less noise, and more social mobility, less crime. i am looking forward to seeing the impact the 2nd avenue line will have on the general well-being of east siders.

here is a link to a nice, illustrative article from the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/05/magazine/tunneling-below-second-avenue.html?pagewanted=all