KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Bargs D has been consistently the worst of all those players. All the #s indicate that. You're just doing wishful thinking.
Cope's defense toward the end of the season and in the post-season was actually very good. In the post-season, his man scored only 99 points per 100 possessions.

I still dont understand why people love Bargnani. Seen him play a lot i understand why Raptor fans had it with him. I mean many Toronto fans were actually thanking us for taking him off their hands and actually giving them decent assets for him in which other teams refused to do

I remember us Knicks fans kissing Donald Sterling and the Clippers feet for taking ZBo off our hand, how'd that turn out?

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Bargs D has been consistently the worst of all those players. All the #s indicate that. You're just doing wishful thinking.
Cope's defense toward the end of the season and in the post-season was actually very good. In the post-season, his man scored only 99 points per 100 possessions.

Cope has only played in 56 career games....most of his time against 2nd and 3rd team players. He only has played over 30 minutes in 6 games. Pretty much of a stretch to base his defense on a spike in limited reserve time during two playoff series. Would be like me taking the best Barg defensive stretch of his career and basing his defensive assessment solely on that data.

Novak played a different position - also in an increasingly limited role

Kmart is a better defender by far than any of these guys. He was brought in later in the year.....if brought back, there is no way to know what his role will be. It may be identical to the one he had last year spelling both PF and center.

Bonn1997 wrote:Bargs D has been consistently the worst of all those players. All the #s indicate that. You're just doing wishful thinking.
Cope's defense toward the end of the season and in the post-season was actually very good. In the post-season, his man scored only 99 points per 100 possessions.

i am going by opposition % against him in the post and isolation. I don't put much weight in Dean's Drf ratings.

http://www.sloansportsconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/The%20Dwight%20Effect%20A%20New%20Ensemble%20of%20Interior%20Defense%20Analytics%20for%20the%20NBA.pdf

B) Proximal FG%: the relative efficiencies of shooters in the proximity of the defender. Overall, when there is a qualifying interior defender within 5 feet of a shot attempt, the NBA shoots 45.6% from the field; however this value varies considerably depending on which defender that is. The most effective proximate defender in our study was Larry Sanders; opponents shot only 34.9% when he was within 5 feet of their shot. Conversely, Anderson Varejao was found to be the least effective proximate defenders with a proximal FG% value of 54.2%. Table 1 summarizes the best and worst players according to proximal FG%, but a complete list of proximal FG% values can be found in Appendix 2.

Yes his help defense stinks, yes he cannot rebound, but he wont be getting abused one on one like Tyson Chandler did against Hibbert.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Bargs D has been consistently the worst of all those players. All the #s indicate that. You're just doing wishful thinking.
Cope's defense toward the end of the season and in the post-season was actually very good. In the post-season, his man scored only 99 points per 100 possessions.

I still dont understand why people love Bargnani. Seen him play a lot i understand why Raptor fans had it with him. I mean many Toronto fans were actually thanking us for taking him off their hands and actually giving them decent assets for him in which other teams refused to do

I remember us Knicks fans kissing Donald Sterling and the Clippers feet for taking ZBo off our hand, how'd that turn out?

Well you cant compare Bargnani and Randolph. Randolph is a proven better player

Not comparing the players, just comparing the situations. People were saying that Zach was not a winning player, an empty stats player and that he was a cancer. Then there was those of us such as myself that liked Zach and argued that he was a good player, he was just not in the right situation.I used to argue that if you gave him a competent PG and a defensive center that he would be a totally different player. I am now saying the same about Bargs, I believe that playing next to Melo and Tyson is going to change the way people see him as a player much like they did with Zach.

Tyson Chandlers home for the playoffs

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Bargs D has been consistently the worst of all those players. All the #s indicate that. You're just doing wishful thinking.
Cope's defense toward the end of the season and in the post-season was actually very good. In the post-season, his man scored only 99 points per 100 possessions.

i am going by opposition % against him in the post and isolation. I don't put much weight in Dean's Drf ratings.

That's just one aspect of defense. You can't assess a player's impact on the defensive end just by looking at how he defends one type of play. You're ignoring how he defends the perimeter, his help defense, defensive rebounds, steals, and more.

Jmpasq wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Bargs D has been consistently the worst of all those players. All the #s indicate that. You're just doing wishful thinking.
Cope's defense toward the end of the season and in the post-season was actually very good. In the post-season, his man scored only 99 points per 100 possessions.

i am going by opposition % against him in the post and isolation. I don't put much weight in Dean's Drf ratings.

That's just one aspect of defense. You can't assess a player's impact on the defensive end just by looking at how he defends one type of play. You're ignoring how he defends the perimeter, his help defense, defensive rebounds, steals, and more.

Chandler is a great Team defender. Are Defense would be pathetic without him. Even though he did get abused by Hibbert in that playoff series

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Bargs D has been consistently the worst of all those players. All the #s indicate that. You're just doing wishful thinking.
Cope's defense toward the end of the season and in the post-season was actually very good. In the post-season, his man scored only 99 points per 100 possessions.

i am going by opposition % against him in the post and isolation. I don't put much weight in Dean's Drf ratings.

That's just one aspect of defense. You can't assess a player's impact on the defensive end just by looking at how he defends one type of play. You're ignoring how he defends the perimeter, his help defense, defensive rebounds, steals, and more.

I don't but if yoh look st my first post I was specific. Also, I don't place value in Dean def ratings because it is alot about team D. You see so many people ratings change +/- when they switch teams from year to year or even in mid season trades. There is not a good system right now so imo, you have to look at play types, team schemes, teammates on floor, and all the things you mentioned.

For the record I'm not high or low on Bargs, I'm just intrigued.

I'm sure teammates affect a players post and isolation defensive numbers too.
You have to admit that if you take a holistic view of all the defensive stats on Bargnani it's a pretty ugly picture.

Maybe but if it's consistently good over a 3 yr span that bodes well that it is not just your teammates when players around you come and go. My view is that some it is ugly and some of it is pretty. So, how do hide the ugly? Can you hide the ugly. Has he played with a DPoy at center or a Def 1st team center? Has he played in a switching defense? I do not have a clue if Bargs will work some numbers say no offensively and defensively but other specific numbers say yes.

Oh and the reason why I pointed out those specific areas on Bargs was because Cope and Novak are bad in those areas plus their bad at the other areas of defense. Although their was an article showing how Novak opponents shot a low % against him because they would go above their ability to try and score. They would get "Novak Eyes".