azamatbagatov wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:I love the wishful thinking but I don't think we are a much better team now then the day before we got Bargnani. He doesn't even move us from being a #5 seed. Lateral move at best since he is still one of the worst rebounders and defenders in the game. If you are trading first round picks you better be making moves to help get a championship in your grasp. This doesn't qualify

Knicks were the number 2 seed. The games haven't been played. Teams have improved but Bargs could be a huge addition. The Knicks traded a pick that is relevant three years from now that the Nuggets have the right to switch with them. 9/10 times that pick is a role player if you scout well.

We were the #2 seed in a conference were the Bulls missed Rose for a year, the Pacers missed Granger for a year and the Nets weren't nearly as stacked as they are now for a 2 year run. Picks are assets. Everyone here seems to like Shumpert and Hardaway Jr. Both guys picked in the later half of the 1st round. Even the 2nd rounders sting. We could draft and stash a Foreign player like the Spurs did with Ginobli. I just don't think that adding Bargnani really makes that much of a difference for us and our outlook next year. To lose a commodity like a first rounder for a guy who won't bring us any closer to 'chip just doesn't make sense to me. That pick could have been packaged with Stat's expiring to make him more attractive to another team.

I am not a hater and I won't root for him to fail but I just think whatever he gives us on offense he will take away with atrocious rebounding and poor defense. I believe it's a lateral move at best

that's bargnani hate,

melo and tyson soft as kittens on d

IronWillGiroud wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:I love the wishful thinking but I don't think we are a much better team now then the day before we got Bargnani. He doesn't even move us from being a #5 seed. Lateral move at best since he is still one of the worst rebounders and defenders in the game. If you are trading first round picks you better be making moves to help get a championship in your grasp. This doesn't qualify

Knicks were the number 2 seed. The games haven't been played. Teams have improved but Bargs could be a huge addition. The Knicks traded a pick that is relevant three years from now that the Nuggets have the right to switch with them. 9/10 times that pick is a role player if you scout well.

We were the #2 seed in a conference were the Bulls missed Rose for a year, the Pacers missed Granger for a year and the Nets weren't nearly as stacked as they are now for a 2 year run. Picks are assets. Everyone here seems to like Shumpert and Hardaway Jr. Both guys picked in the later half of the 1st round. Even the 2nd rounders sting. We could draft and stash a Foreign player like the Spurs did with Ginobli. I just don't think that adding Bargnani really makes that much of a difference for us and our outlook next year. To lose a commodity like a first rounder for a guy who won't bring us any closer to 'chip just doesn't make sense to me. That pick could have been packaged with Stat's expiring to make him more attractive to another team.

I am not a hater and I won't root for him to fail but I just think whatever he gives us on offense he will take away with atrocious rebounding and poor defense. I believe it's a lateral move at best

that's bargnani hate,

melo and tyson soft as kittens on d

I never said they weren't "soft as kittens on d". So you think it's a good idea to add a guy like Bargnani to that mix?

azamatbagatov wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:I love the wishful thinking but I don't think we are a much better team now then the day before we got Bargnani. He doesn't even move us from being a #5 seed. Lateral move at best since he is still one of the worst rebounders and defenders in the game. If you are trading first round picks you better be making moves to help get a championship in your grasp. This doesn't qualify

Knicks were the number 2 seed. The games haven't been played. Teams have improved but Bargs could be a huge addition. The Knicks traded a pick that is relevant three years from now that the Nuggets have the right to switch with them. 9/10 times that pick is a role player if you scout well.

We were the #2 seed in a conference were the Bulls missed Rose for a year, the Pacers missed Granger for a year and the Nets weren't nearly as stacked as they are now for a 2 year run. Picks are assets. Everyone here seems to like Shumpert and Hardaway Jr. Both guys picked in the later half of the 1st round. Even the 2nd rounders sting. We could draft and stash a Foreign player like the Spurs did with Ginobli. I just don't think that adding Bargnani really makes that much of a difference for us and our outlook next year. To lose a commodity like a first rounder for a guy who won't bring us any closer to 'chip just doesn't make sense to me. That pick could have been packaged with Stat's expiring to make him more attractive to another team.

I am not a hater and I won't root for him to fail but I just think whatever he gives us on offense he will take away with atrocious rebounding and poor defense. I believe it's a lateral move at best

GustavBahler wrote:

3G4G wrote:

tkf wrote:I thought the knicks got him to space the floor? oh well, there goes that one... Almost every player will have a highlight reel or two of them scoring in the post.. doesn't make them a post player....

lets do this.. lets start pulling up highlights of him rebounding, scoring in the paint and protecting the basket... that is what the knicks needed... good luck finding enough of that to last 2 minutes....

I think we should bring this guy in to teach Shumpert how to run the floor in transition....Sonny Weems is a "Transition Player"....

I agree, Shump does need work on his transition game and his dribble. One thing I'll say about Shump is that he can cover ground faster than a lot of guys in the league. I believe part of it has to do with his stride. If Shump can combine his foot speed with an improved handle, look out. Its great that he wants to play in SL.

AND Finishing at the Rim. Too often Shump would get to the Rim and look like a Deer caught in some headlights. Unless he has someone to pass to or a wide open layup, bad things tend to happen.

DurzoBlint wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

3G4G wrote:

tkf wrote:I thought the knicks got him to space the floor? oh well, there goes that one... Almost every player will have a highlight reel or two of them scoring in the post.. doesn't make them a post player....

lets do this.. lets start pulling up highlights of him rebounding, scoring in the paint and protecting the basket... that is what the knicks needed... good luck finding enough of that to last 2 minutes....

I think we should bring this guy in to teach Shumpert how to run the floor in transition....Sonny Weems is a "Transition Player"....

I agree, Shump does need work on his transition game and his dribble. One thing I'll say about Shump is that he can cover ground faster than a lot of guys in the league. I believe part of it has to do with his stride. If Shump can combine his foot speed with an improved handle, look out. Its great that he wants to play in SL.

AND Finishing at the Rim. Too often Shump would get to the Rim and look like a Deer caught in some headlights. Unless he has someone to pass to or a wide open layup, bad things tend to happen.

Agree 100 percent. Shump hurting his knee also hampered his development IMO. He would sky to the rim at these weird angles like he didn't know when or where to plant his foot and take off, could be nerves. Once shump has that worked out he should be fine. We should get a chance to see if he's improved on that part of his game today, if not he still has the rest of the summer and preseason to get it down. I'm confident Shump will with his work ethic.

GustavBahler wrote:

Vmart wrote:Why do people forget that the Knicks are getting a damaged version of what he was in that YouTube clip. It's like showing Kobe scoring 81 points knowing you are getting a ruptured Achilles Kobe. Like getting a two knee surgery Amare and a bad back Amare. There is a vast difference between then and now.

Bargs says he's 100 percent, guess we'll find out soon enough. He's playing in the World Championships this summer, good chance to see him in action.

Amare says he is 100% all the time. You going to believe them.

the 2010 season (the video vs. the knicks), he gained 15 pounds and played alot in the post. he made a concerted effort to stay 18 feet and in that year. he does have some very nice post scoring ability.

BUT...

then he shed those 15 pounds the next season. after that, he did not establish really low post position. he easily gets bumped out b/c he doesn't hold his ground. so instead of receiving the ball 7 feet from the basket, he gets bumped out and gets it 10-12 feet from the basket. that dramatically changes everything - spacing, defensive adjustment, etc. he can stick the jumper which helps him but definitely removes him from the post and changes the offense.

then even with that, he will post up maybe once on his own and if a play is called for it. but far too often he will abandon it and veer back out to the perimeter. the coach HAS to run plays for him there and force him to play there. when he did in 2010, it was very effective.

with all that said...mike woodson will not use him there. with melobury in town, the entire offense will be built for that. which means everyone else is there to spread it out for him. so do not expect bargs to be utilized in the post this year...and add amare to the mix and forget about it.

imho, what you are going to see is woodson use him out at the 3 point line on the other side of the court as melo - which is a waste. i think the only time he will be effective in your offense is via a pick and pop with felton - and that's only if woodson incorporates that.

they have got to challenge bargs - and it's not by saying you need to rebound better, etc. his weaknesses will not change after so many years in the league. you have to challenge him with something like an all star berth and make him a major part of the offense. if you don't give him his shots early, then he will disappear the rest of the game.

i imagine he will get a good bump of adrenaline in ny and it will last a bit. but it can quickly fade if he's not being utilized right.

we have a thing with the raptors - he rated almost unheard levels in the caliper test before being drafted. the people that wrote the test expected him to be a super star b/c of it. the test showed that he doesn't waver in any emotional way...but unfortunately, it means he doesn't care about anything. so you have to motivate him for something. in 2011/12, the strike year, casey challenged him to be an all star - and he played at all star level...but all that effort and crazy minutes casey was playing him, got him hurt and his season derailed.

GustavBahler wrote:

RonRon wrote:Bargs is a 7footer and most of the work was done on

Wilson Chandler
Gallo
Shawnee Williams

Amare

It was Gallo and Chandler's earlier years as well but also Amare's best year as a Knick
Barg's was able to expose to mismatches and caught fire but I think it is "small sample sizing"
This was Barg's best season, its like putting on a Billups, Kidds, Camby's, Rasheed's, best years and a highlight video of theirs and saying that is what we are possibly getting

As a Knick fan,
I would like him to succeed but with Melo, he will likely have a fit if ANY PLAYER gets on a roll playing as an option higher than him *regardless of mismatch problems* and playing off a player that he does not think is a TOP 10 player that he respects

I just can't see it happening, not which Melo, not with this Coach, if Melo feels 15m isn't enough in 2015 summer and/or doesn't want to terminate his player option, we would be doing ourselves a favor by trading him while we can still get good value

truth is, NO ONE wants to come to NY in a bargain deal because they don't like the way we play, how Melo plays, how COACH Woodson allows all of this to happen, how he doesn't execute plays, and horrible rotations/lineups/doghouses
On top of it, they likely become a trade commodity if they perform well and took less salary to come over, who wants that....

As a 7fter, Bargs should have his share of mismatches next season, but you're right that playing in the post is not his bread and butter. That clip shows however that he does have some post moves, which is encouraging. It will be up to Woodson and our PGs to exploit those mismatches.

I don't see a real mismatch vs the Top 4 teams in the East
At least not without being a mismatch on both ends *meaning he would get eaten up on DEF*

While

Miami takes his ability to penetrate away with their speed and TEAM DEF and Bosh is a mobile C that can contend his shot and recover with help
Nets have plenty of BIGS that can match up with him, especially KG and AK47, not to mention Plumlee and Reggie Evans
Bulls have Noah/Gibson to match up with Bargs
Pacer's would have trouble matching up with him for Barg's outside shooting ability but will get eaten up on DEF with their size/strength/post up abilities

RonRon wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

RonRon wrote:Bargs is a 7footer and most of the work was done on

Wilson Chandler
Gallo
Shawnee Williams

Amare

It was Gallo and Chandler's earlier years as well but also Amare's best year as a Knick
Barg's was able to expose to mismatches and caught fire but I think it is "small sample sizing"
This was Barg's best season, its like putting on a Billups, Kidds, Camby's, Rasheed's, best years and a highlight video of theirs and saying that is what we are possibly getting

As a Knick fan,
I would like him to succeed but with Melo, he will likely have a fit if ANY PLAYER gets on a roll playing as an option higher than him *regardless of mismatch problems* and playing off a player that he does not think is a TOP 10 player that he respects

I just can't see it happening, not which Melo, not with this Coach, if Melo feels 15m isn't enough in 2015 summer and/or doesn't want to terminate his player option, we would be doing ourselves a favor by trading him while we can still get good value

truth is, NO ONE wants to come to NY in a bargain deal because they don't like the way we play, how Melo plays, how COACH Woodson allows all of this to happen, how he doesn't execute plays, and horrible rotations/lineups/doghouses
On top of it, they likely become a trade commodity if they perform well and took less salary to come over, who wants that....

As a 7fter, Bargs should have his share of mismatches next season, but you're right that playing in the post is not his bread and butter. That clip shows however that he does have some post moves, which is encouraging. It will be up to Woodson and our PGs to exploit those mismatches.

I don't see a real mismatch vs the Top 4 teams in the East
At least not without being a mismatch on both ends *meaning he would get eaten up on DEF*

While

Miami takes his ability to penetrate away with their speed and TEAM DEF and Bosh is a mobile C that can contend his shot and recover with help
Nets have plenty of BIGS that can match up with him, especially KG and AK47, not to mention Plumlee and Reggie Evans
Bulls have Noah/Gibson to match up with Bargs
Pacer's would have trouble matching up with him for Barg's outside shooting ability but will get eaten up on DEF with their size/strength/post up abilities

Bargs won't always go up against starters, he'll be in a position to exploit switches, also doubt he will be playing PF exclusively, which means he will be matched up at times against smaller players.

djsunyc wrote:here's the deal with bargs post game...

the 2010 season (the video vs. the knicks), he gained 15 pounds and played alot in the post. he made a concerted effort to stay 18 feet and in that year. he does have some very nice post scoring ability.

BUT...

then he shed those 15 pounds the next season. after that, he did not establish really low post position. he easily gets bumped out b/c he doesn't hold his ground. so instead of receiving the ball 7 feet from the basket, he gets bumped out and gets it 10-12 feet from the basket. that dramatically changes everything - spacing, defensive adjustment, etc. he can stick the jumper which helps him but definitely removes him from the post and changes the offense.

then even with that, he will post up maybe once on his own and if a play is called for it. but far too often he will abandon it and veer back out to the perimeter. the coach HAS to run plays for him there and force him to play there. when he did in 2010, it was very effective.

with all that said...mike woodson will not use him there. with melobury in town, the entire offense will be built for that. which means everyone else is there to spread it out for him. so do not expect bargs to be utilized in the post this year...and add amare to the mix and forget about it.

imho, what you are going to see is woodson use him out at the 3 point line on the other side of the court as melo - which is a waste. i think the only time he will be effective in your offense is via a pick and pop with felton - and that's only if woodson incorporates that.

they have got to challenge bargs - and it's not by saying you need to rebound better, etc. his weaknesses will not change after so many years in the league. you have to challenge him with something like an all star berth and make him a major part of the offense. if you don't give him his shots early, then he will disappear the rest of the game.

i imagine he will get a good bump of adrenaline in ny and it will last a bit. but it can quickly fade if he's not being utilized right.

we have a thing with the raptors - he rated almost unheard levels in the caliper test before being drafted. the people that wrote the test expected him to be a super star b/c of it. the test showed that he doesn't waver in any emotional way...but unfortunately, it means he doesn't care about anything. so you have to motivate him for something. in 2011/12, the strike year, casey challenged him to be an all star - and he played at all star level...but all that effort and crazy minutes casey was playing him, got him hurt and his season derailed.

great insight bro. what else should i expect from mr. raptors himself? lol.

the caliper test stuff is pretty interesting - you would have to think that bargs will come to ny and ready to be a superstar, but you just don't know. whats your opinion dj - what do you think bargs puts up this year? think 17pts/7reb is possible?

i know most people don't like this trade, but the way i see it, knicks took a chance on a guy who if he plays up to his potential, we finally get the #2 next to carmelo that we been missing and if he doesn't, his contract comes off the books in 2015 and next year have a ton of big-money expiring contracts if they are looking to make a blockbuster.