colorfl1 wrote:I don't understand all the negativity about giving up the swap pick.
Bargnani's trade value will increase as he enters his final year.
The Knicks can always trade him for a pick and fodder to team a looking to dump salary.

His trade value can only increase.

a team looking to dump salary is trying to do what? rebuild, right? so why would they be looking to give up premium picks? but then again, if we are going to take on someone's salary dump, doesn't this go against the 2015 cap space clearing mission?

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

VDesai wrote:The point about the Nuggets swap is a good one- this will not be a premium pick

+1. The draft picks argument is really moot. Even if the 2 2nd rounders are included, Knicks have always bought 2nd rders or replenished their bench other ways(Prigs, Cope).

re-post that in the other threads because that is what people need to understand. The 1st rounder would be a late pick anyway and picks that late are usually chosen for potential and flame out about as often as they succeed. The 2nd rounders are pretty much redundant for the reasons you mentioned.

SO WE CAn just count TH jr as a usless pick,right?

are you just trying to be difficult on purpose?

no martin, these are not my words.... he said that late first rounders are usually chosen for potential and flame out as often as they succeed... Ok, so if that is the case, then what is all of the threads and enthusiasm over the Tim hardaway JR pick?

You see, if we have a pick, a late pick, people point out how many great players can be obtained...

we trade the pick in another series of odd moves and all of a sudden those picks are now flame outs and bust..

I am not trying to be difficult at all.. just trying to see what line of reasoning people are using now... how is that being difficult?

tkf wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

VDesai wrote:The point about the Nuggets swap is a good one- this will not be a premium pick

+1. The draft picks argument is really moot. Even if the 2 2nd rounders are included, Knicks have always bought 2nd rders or replenished their bench other ways(Prigs, Cope).

re-post that in the other threads because that is what people need to understand. The 1st rounder would be a late pick anyway and picks that late are usually chosen for potential and flame out about as often as they succeed. The 2nd rounders are pretty much redundant for the reasons you mentioned.

SO WE CAn just count TH jr as a usless pick,right?

not useless, just a pick based on potential which, is what late round pick are. I never said or suggested such picks are useless. Not sure why you responded the way you did? They do flame out as often as they succeed, which is not an indictment on our current pick. So, yeah, you did come across as just being difficult.

DurzoBlint wrote:

tkf wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

tkf wrote:

So we will indulge in the basketball aspect. Bargnani's impact will be in pulling opposing bigs (attn: Roy Hibbert) out of the painted area with his perimeter shooting, which would allow Carmelo and Amar'e to work. However, before we think he could potentially replace Tyson Chandler, we remind you that defense and rebounding are important.

And what will happen when hibbert gets the ball on offense?

we have to hope that Tyson goes back to playing like a man. Likely it wouldn't be Hibbert guarding Bargs but, West which could also be a problem on defense. But since defense is also a TEAM concept, it is possible to hide or marginalize his deficiencies (I hope )

no, they are saying that bargs can pull hibbert away from the basket.. so chandler won't be on the floor I assume, and if he is, then wouldn't hibbert still be guarding chandler? so what is the advantage again?

and, I'm saying that since he would likely play at the 4, it would more likely be West...do You not agree with that assessment??

doesn't matter if I agree since Hibbert is the guy who mans the middle.. who cares if it pulls west out?

tkf wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

tkf wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

tkf wrote:

So we will indulge in the basketball aspect. Bargnani's impact will be in pulling opposing bigs (attn: Roy Hibbert) out of the painted area with his perimeter shooting, which would allow Carmelo and Amar'e to work. However, before we think he could potentially replace Tyson Chandler, we remind you that defense and rebounding are important.

And what will happen when hibbert gets the ball on offense?

we have to hope that Tyson goes back to playing like a man. Likely it wouldn't be Hibbert guarding Bargs but, West which could also be a problem on defense. But since defense is also a TEAM concept, it is possible to hide or marginalize his deficiencies (I hope )

no, they are saying that bargs can pull hibbert away from the basket.. so chandler won't be on the floor I assume, and if he is, then wouldn't hibbert still be guarding chandler? so what is the advantage again?

and, I'm saying that since he would likely play at the 4, it would more likely be West...do You not agree with that assessment??

doesn't matter if I agree since Hibbert is the guy who mans the middle.. who cares if it pulls west out?

Doesn't matter if it pulls Hibbert or West out...it pulls rebounders and rim protecters away from the paint, isn't that the point?

DurzoBlint wrote:

tkf wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

VDesai wrote:The point about the Nuggets swap is a good one- this will not be a premium pick

+1. The draft picks argument is really moot. Even if the 2 2nd rounders are included, Knicks have always bought 2nd rders or replenished their bench other ways(Prigs, Cope).

re-post that in the other threads because that is what people need to understand. The 1st rounder would be a late pick anyway and picks that late are usually chosen for potential and flame out about as often as they succeed. The 2nd rounders are pretty much redundant for the reasons you mentioned.

SO WE CAn just count TH jr as a usless pick,right?

not useless, just a pick based on potential which, is what late round pick are. I never said or suggested such picks are useless. Not sure why you responded the way you did? They do flame out as often as they succeed, which is not an indictment on our current pick. So, yeah, you did come across as just being difficult.

Well lets go look back, I think you will find out that most don't flame out... and what do you consider flamed out? did shumpert flame out? tell me do you in your heart of hearts feel that THJ will flame out? look at the last couple of years draft from 15 down, how many flame outs are there? so often on this forum we heard that the top of the draft was weak and gems were to be found later in the draft.. and this seems to change depending on what situation the knicks are in.... this is why I said what I said.. not to be difficult to but to gauge what opinion people are going with now since the trade has been made..

tkf wrote:

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

VDesai wrote:The point about the Nuggets swap is a good one- this will not be a premium pick

+1. The draft picks argument is really moot. Even if the 2 2nd rounders are included, Knicks have always bought 2nd rders or replenished their bench other ways(Prigs, Cope).

re-post that in the other threads because that is what people need to understand. The 1st rounder would be a late pick anyway and picks that late are usually chosen for potential and flame out about as often as they succeed. The 2nd rounders are pretty much redundant for the reasons you mentioned.

SO WE CAn just count TH jr as a usless pick,right?

are you just trying to be difficult on purpose?

no martin, these are not my words.... he said that late first rounders are usually chosen for potential and flame out as often as they succeed... Ok, so if that is the case, then what is all of the threads and enthusiasm over the Tim hardaway JR pick?

You see, if we have a pick, a late pick, people point out how many great players can be obtained...

we trade the pick in another series of odd moves and all of a sudden those picks are now flame outs and bust..

I am not trying to be difficult at all.. just trying to see what line of reasoning people are using now... how is that being difficult?

I read that a player drafted between 15-30 has a 45% chance of becoming a rotation player. Hardaway JR. is exciting because its fun to draft players and hope they turn out to be pretty good. Reality is, we traded one for a career 15 and 5 player who is similar to Gallinari in a lot of ways, and improved our salary cap sitation as well. It's as good a deal as you can ask for. We will get that draft pick back, or a player in the bargain bin of that value, not really a big deal.

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

VDesai wrote:The point about the Nuggets swap is a good one- this will not be a premium pick

+1. The draft picks argument is really moot. Even if the 2 2nd rounders are included, Knicks have always bought 2nd rders or replenished their bench other ways(Prigs, Cope).

re-post that in the other threads because that is what people need to understand. The 1st rounder would be a late pick anyway and picks that late are usually chosen for potential and flame out about as often as they succeed. The 2nd rounders are pretty much redundant for the reasons you mentioned.

SO WE CAn just count TH jr as a usless pick,right?

are you just trying to be difficult on purpose?

no martin, these are not my words.... he said that late first rounders are usually chosen for potential and flame out as often as they succeed... Ok, so if that is the case, then what is all of the threads and enthusiasm over the Tim hardaway JR pick?

You see, if we have a pick, a late pick, people point out how many great players can be obtained...

we trade the pick in another series of odd moves and all of a sudden those picks are now flame outs and bust..

I am not trying to be difficult at all.. just trying to see what line of reasoning people are using now... how is that being difficult?

I read that a player drafted between 15-30 has a 45% chance of becoming a rotation player. Hardaway JR. is exciting because its fun to draft players and hope they turn out to be pretty good. Reality is, we traded one for a career 15 and 5 player who is similar to Gallinari in a lot of ways, and improved our salary cap sitation as well. It's as good a deal as you can ask for. We will get that draft pick back, or a player in the bargain bin of that value, not really a big deal.

Yeah but Bargnani probably has only a 50% chance of being healthy, and even then he hasn't played like a guy worthy of a rotation spot. 5 rbs can be good or bad depending on the position a player is playing. If you're PG is putting up 5 rbs per 36 min you're getting at least +1 or +2 compared to what you should be getting. If you're center is putting up 5, you're getting a net loss of about 5 rbs. It would be more accurate to call Bargnani a 15 and -5 player.

DurzoBlint wrote:

tkf wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

tkf wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

VDesai wrote:The point about the Nuggets swap is a good one- this will not be a premium pick

+1. The draft picks argument is really moot. Even if the 2 2nd rounders are included, Knicks have always bought 2nd rders or replenished their bench other ways(Prigs, Cope).

re-post that in the other threads because that is what people need to understand. The 1st rounder would be a late pick anyway and picks that late are usually chosen for potential and flame out about as often as they succeed. The 2nd rounders are pretty much redundant for the reasons you mentioned.

SO WE CAn just count TH jr as a usless pick,right?

not useless, just a pick based on potential which, is what late round pick are. I never said or suggested such picks are useless. Not sure why you responded the way you did? They do flame out as often as they succeed, which is not an indictment on our current pick. So, yeah, you did come across as just being difficult.

Well lets go look back, I think you will find out that most don't flame out... and what do you consider flamed out? did shumpert flame out? tell me do you in your heart of hearts feel that THJ will flame out? look at the last couple of years draft from 15 down, how many flame outs are there? so often on this forum we heard that the top of the draft was weak and gems were to be found later in the draft.. and this seems to change depending on what situation the knicks are in.... this is why I said what I said.. not to be difficult to but to gauge what opinion people are going with now since the trade has been made..

where did I say Most....once again your either being difficult or your not reading my entire post. I said as often as not which in my world does not equate most. So the entirety of your above post is redundant. I like the pick, and I admit it is risky but, not to the detriment that guys are claiming. He expires along with Amare if I am not mistake so, the contract will be a huge value to either us as it expires or to someone else.

flame out about as often as they succeed.

ok, so you didn't say most.. so please clarify this statement.. as often as they succeed, so you are saying it is 50-50? if that is the case, we can say that about any pick, from 1 to pick 30... now there are different levels of talent, but again it just seems as if you were trying to downplay the picks... no problem tho.... sorry if I misunderstood you...