AnubisADL wrote:

tkf wrote:come on man, who knows.. but jeez, stop acting as if shumpert is that good.... shumpert still has a ways to go to be a good ball player, his handle needs works, his passing, shooting, heck there could be 10 players in the draft better than shumpert.. who knows, but it may be worth the chance is what he is saying, it is not like you are giving up a sure thing with shumpert.. he hasn't put together a full good season yet, so lets not go overboard... I like shumpert a lot, but the knicks have to keep all options open...

Shumpert has proven he can be an elite defender in the NBA.

Abso-friggin-lutely... he basically just recovered from his blown ACL and he came on like a bat out of hell the warmer the weather got. Changing for the sake of changing is certifiably insane

Knick: 13th pick, Marion, Williams, Ridnour, and 26th/future 1st

Minny: Chandler

Dal: White

That gives Dallas the cap space they need without taking anything back. However, I don't like it for NY at all. Even though the Knicks defensive rating was better with Tyson off the court last year.

3G4G wrote:

VCoug wrote:I'd take on Marion's contract if it meant the 13th pick, no question. But, like others have already said, Dallas wants to dump salary not swap it. In order to trade for Marion we need to send back $9,236,796 in salary to Dallas and cash doesn't count towards that number. At most, we have $3M in non-guaranteed contracts (and I don't think we even have that much) so we'd still need to send another another $6M in salary and I don't know why Dallas would agree to that.

Dallas is below the Cap so salaries do not have to match. I think since we're a Tax Paying team we have to come within 150% correct?

Dallas being under the cap wouldn't really help this trade. There's no minimum amount of salary that we need to take back in a trade but there is a maximum. Because we're over the luxury tax we can only take back 125% of our outgoing salary plus another $100,000. For example, if we were trading out $10M in player salary the most we could take back is $12.6M. Marion's contract for next season is $9,316,796. That means I made a math error earlier and we would need to send out at $7,373,436 in player salary. Any cash doesn't count towards that number and we can't combine our Traded Player Exception with players.

I mean, I thought Toney could be a piece of a winning team.

He played good defense, scored. Sure, he was maybe a tweaner.

Shall we also go Frank Williams?

Don't get me wrong - I love Iman, but his potential to grow and become an impact player is best described as a probably or percentage, and that is a single digit- not a certainity.

Now- I don't hand cuff this roster more just to get the 13th pick in this draft- so I certainly don't also include Shump.

But the idea that there are not 10 players in this draft who could become better players than Shump is absurd homerism...

VCoug wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

VCoug wrote:

3G4G wrote:

VCoug wrote:I'd take on Marion's contract if it meant the 13th pick, no question. But, like others have already said, Dallas wants to dump salary not swap it. In order to trade for Marion we need to send back $9,236,796 in salary to Dallas and cash doesn't count towards that number. At most, we have $3M in non-guaranteed contracts (and I don't think we even have that much) so we'd still need to send another another $6M in salary and I don't know why Dallas would agree to that.

Dallas is below the Cap so salaries do not have to match. I think since we're a Tax Paying team we have to come within 150% correct?

Dallas being under the cap wouldn't really help this trade. There's no minimum amount of salary that we need to take back in a trade but there is a maximum. Because we're over the luxury tax we can only take back 125% of our outgoing salary plus another $100,000. For example, if we were trading out $10M in player salary the most we could take back is $12.6M. Marion's contract for next season is $9,316,796. That means I made a math error earlier and we would need to send out at $7,373,436 in player salary. Any cash doesn't count towards that number and we can't combine our Traded Player Exception with players.

Marion has a trade kicker, which would jack up his salary.

Didn't realize he has a trade kicker. Just did a quick search and it looks like it's 15%. In that case Marion's salary is $10,714,315 and we would need to send out salary totaling $8,491,452.

NardDogNation wrote:On a side, what you're saying is that even if the Knicks found a taker for Steve Novak's contract, we wouldn't be able to swap both his trade exception and our $3million in non-guaranteed contracts for Marion?

Correct, teams over the cap aren't allowed to trade players and exceptions in the same trade.

tkf wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

tkf wrote:come on man, who knows.. but jeez, stop acting as if shumpert is that good.... shumpert still has a ways to go to be a good ball player, his handle needs works, his passing, shooting, heck there could be 10 players in the draft better than shumpert.. who knows, but it may be worth the chance is what he is saying, it is not like you are giving up a sure thing with shumpert.. he hasn't put together a full good season yet, so lets not go overboard... I like shumpert a lot, but the knicks have to keep all options open...

Shumpert has proven he can be an elite defender in the NBA.

he has proven he can be a good defender in this league.. stop going overboard...

I don't think it's overboard considering the ACL injury and recovery time. Lots of people consider Shump a top, young defender at the wing position.

I thought this was a good article: http://www.postingandtoasting.com/2013/6/19/4437950/how-good-was-iman-shumpert-in-the-playoffs

I've been wondering how Shump's 2013 playoffs stacks up against other second-year guards from the past 20 years. It's important to remember that, given his lockout-shortened rookie season and injury-shortened sophomore season, he's played fewer games than just about every player on this list. Still, the results are impressive. Over the last 20 NBA seasons, a total of 31 second-year guards have played at least ten games in one postseason and clocked at least 250 minutes - here are the ten best performances, as measured by win shares per 48 minutes:

	Totals 	Shooting 	
Rk 	Player 		Season 	Age 	Tm 	G 	MP 	TRB 	AST 	STL 	TOV 	PTS 	FG% 	3P% 	FT% 	WS/48
1 	Baron Davis 	2000-01 21 	CHH 	10 	397 	44 	58 	28 	22 	178 	.480 	.400 	.714 	.226
2 	Manu Ginobili 	2003-04 26 	SAS 	10 	280 	53 	31 	17 	21 	130 	.447 	.286 	.818 	.224
3 	James Harden 	2010-11 21 	OKC 	17 	537 	91 	61 	21 	28 	221 	.475 	.303 	.825 	.193
4 	Dwyane Wade 	2004-05 23 	MIA 	14 	571 	80 	93 	22 	62 	384 	.484 	.100 	.799 	.180
5 	Ronnie Brewer 	2007-08 22 	UTA 	12 	305 	38 	19 	12 	4 	122 	.520 	.167 	.760 	.154
6 	Fred Jones 	2003-04 24 	IND 	14 	263 	33 	16 	7 	9 	66 	.490 	.500 	.714 	.145
7 	Iman Shumpert 	2012-13 22 	NYK 	12 	337 	72 	16 	13 	14 	112 	.410 	.429 	.857 	.143
8 	Sam Cassell 	1994-95 25 	HOU 	22 	485 	42 	89 	21 	33 	243 	.438 	.400 	.835 	.138
9 	Nick Van Exel 	1994-95 23 	LAL 	10 	464 	38 	73 	21 	22 	200 	.414 	.318 	.763 	.135
10 	Penny Hardaway 	1994-95 23 	ORL 	21 	849 	79 	162 	40 	73 	412 	.472 	.404 	.757 	.133

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

tkf wrote:come on man, who knows.. but jeez, stop acting as if shumpert is that good.... shumpert still has a ways to go to be a good ball player, his handle needs works, his passing, shooting, heck there could be 10 players in the draft better than shumpert.. who knows, but it may be worth the chance is what he is saying, it is not like you are giving up a sure thing with shumpert.. he hasn't put together a full good season yet, so lets not go overboard... I like shumpert a lot, but the knicks have to keep all options open...

Shumpert has proven he can be an elite defender in the NBA.

he has proven he can be a good defender in this league.. stop going overboard...

I don't think it's overboard considering the ACL injury and recovery time. Lots of people consider Shump a top, young defender at the wing position.

I thought this was a good article: http://www.postingandtoasting.com/2013/6/19/4437950/how-good-was-iman-shumpert-in-the-playoffs

I've been wondering how Shump's 2013 playoffs stacks up against other second-year guards from the past 20 years. It's important to remember that, given his lockout-shortened rookie season and injury-shortened sophomore season, he's played fewer games than just about every player on this list. Still, the results are impressive. Over the last 20 NBA seasons, a total of 31 second-year guards have played at least ten games in one postseason and clocked at least 250 minutes - here are the ten best performances, as measured by win shares per 48 minutes:

	Totals 	Shooting 	
Rk 	Player 		Season 	Age 	Tm 	G 	MP 	TRB 	AST 	STL 	TOV 	PTS 	FG% 	3P% 	FT% 	WS/48
1 	Baron Davis 	2000-01 21 	CHH 	10 	397 	44 	58 	28 	22 	178 	.480 	.400 	.714 	.226
2 	Manu Ginobili 	2003-04 26 	SAS 	10 	280 	53 	31 	17 	21 	130 	.447 	.286 	.818 	.224
3 	James Harden 	2010-11 21 	OKC 	17 	537 	91 	61 	21 	28 	221 	.475 	.303 	.825 	.193
4 	Dwyane Wade 	2004-05 23 	MIA 	14 	571 	80 	93 	22 	62 	384 	.484 	.100 	.799 	.180
5 	Ronnie Brewer 	2007-08 22 	UTA 	12 	305 	38 	19 	12 	4 	122 	.520 	.167 	.760 	.154
6 	Fred Jones 	2003-04 24 	IND 	14 	263 	33 	16 	7 	9 	66 	.490 	.500 	.714 	.145
7 	Iman Shumpert 	2012-13 22 	NYK 	12 	337 	72 	16 	13 	14 	112 	.410 	.429 	.857 	.143
8 	Sam Cassell 	1994-95 25 	HOU 	22 	485 	42 	89 	21 	33 	243 	.438 	.400 	.835 	.138
9 	Nick Van Exel 	1994-95 23 	LAL 	10 	464 	38 	73 	21 	22 	200 	.414 	.318 	.763 	.135
10 	Penny Hardaway 	1994-95 23 	ORL 	21 	849 	79 	162 	40 	73 	412 	.472 	.404 	.757 	.133

well martin, we can't use the ACL as an excuse, I mean that may be what holds him back.. saying he is coming off ACL doesn't mean that he is on the same path before the injury. I think it is overboard to start talking elite about someone who has not put in a complete season of work yet. Isn't that reasonable? I think he can be a very good defender as he is already a good defender now.... elite potential? well we just have to wait and see..

I am not sure what those stats you posted prove with him being an elite defender or potentially.. care to elaborate? I am not sure I am following you here..

tkf wrote:

franco12 wrote:through two seasons, what exactly has Iman Shumpert done that Toney Douglas didn't do?

I mean, I thought Toney could be a piece of a winning team.

He played good defense, scored. Sure, he was maybe a tweaner.

Shall we also go Frank Williams?

Don't get me wrong - I love Iman, but his potential to grow and become an impact player is best described as a probably or percentage, and that is a single digit- not a certainity.

Now- I don't hand cuff this roster more just to get the 13th pick in this draft- so I certainly don't also include Shump.

But the idea that there are not 10 players in this draft who could become better players than Shump is absurd homerism...

VERY WELL PUT..

Not for me. TD had the reputation as a solid defender coming out of college but never showed that in the NBA, and he could only play, guard the PG spot. Shump has shown to be top level perimeter defender guarding PG, SG, SF, Tony couldn't do that.

For me it's also all about context... Shump has not had 1 offseason to really improve game and took the first half of this season just to catch up to norm.

And this is about potential... is Shump on the incline, decline or gonna flat-line? My money is on incline.

tkf wrote:well martin, we can't use the ACL as an excuse, I mean that may be what holds him back.. saying he is coming off ACL doesn't mean that he is on the same path before the injury. I think it is overboard to start talking elite about someone who has not put in a complete season of work yet. Isn't that reasonable? I think he can be a very good defender as he is already a good defender now.... elite potential? well we just have to wait and see..

I am not sure what those stats you posted prove with him being an elite defender or potentially.. care to elaborate? I am not sure I am following you here..

I am not using the ACL as an excuse but it's clear that Shump was not the same player in January as in June, that's just flat out fact and also putting Shump's play into the right context. If the season were 3 months longer I think we would have seen much better play from him.

Also note that the guy was our starting SF who was asked to guard the other teams best perimeter player on a regular basis, that's speaks A LOT