loweyecue wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:They better think offense or guys who can play both ways. We need guys who can score points.

How can you score points when your only get ten shots max even when your hot, because of the star player taking 30 shots..

Don't act like you don't see it when Shump starts making shots or felton or novak, or copeland or amare, then gets pulled, or they go back to iso..Don't start talking about fire power, that involves ball movement, something we don't do regularly, don't start talking fire power when your 2 scorers take tough shots all the time instead of passing to a open guys..

DO role players normally take more than 10 shots?

When they are hot and playing with a star who is willing to pass the rock - YES.
One player doesn't have to take 10 shots, it just needs to be a team effort. Not two players taking 50 shots between them.

you exaggerate a little too much.

It's not that bad an exaggeration. Melo and JR combined for 41+ shots per game in the post-season.

I exaggerate to make a point. The point was we needed two way players. The counter argument was that since our coach is not willing to involve them in the offense and our resident black holes are not willing to share, two way players would be wasted here.

This counter argument is out of these quotes but you say they will be wasted but they would get the same amount as touches here that the role players get in S.A and many other places.

knicks1248 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:They better think offense or guys who can play both ways. We need guys who can score points.

How can you score points when your only get ten shots max even when your hot, because of the star player taking 30 shots..

Don't act like you don't see it when Shump starts making shots or felton or novak, or copeland or amare, then gets pulled, or they go back to iso..Don't start talking about fire power, that involves ball movement, something we don't do regularly, don't start talking fire power when your 2 scorers take tough shots all the time instead of passing to a open guys..

That is not true at all. Hate on Melo all you want, because much of it is justified but, to say guys GET BENCHED for making shots is just asinine

yellowboy90 wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:They better think offense or guys who can play both ways. We need guys who can score points.

How can you score points when your only get ten shots max even when your hot, because of the star player taking 30 shots..

Don't act like you don't see it when Shump starts making shots or felton or novak, or copeland or amare, then gets pulled, or they go back to iso..Don't start talking about fire power, that involves ball movement, something we don't do regularly, don't start talking fire power when your 2 scorers take tough shots all the time instead of passing to a open guys..

DO role players normally take more than 10 shots?

When they are hot and playing with a star who is willing to pass the rock - YES.
One player doesn't have to take 10 shots, it just needs to be a team effort. Not two players taking 50 shots between them.

you exaggerate a little too much.

It's not that bad an exaggeration. Melo and JR combined for 41+ shots per game in the post-season.

I exaggerate to make a point. The point was we needed two way players. The counter argument was that since our coach is not willing to involve them in the offense and our resident black holes are not willing to share, two way players would be wasted here.

This counter argument is out of these quotes but you say they will be wasted but they would get the same amount as touches here that the role players get in S.A and many other places.

I have made my argument many times in different threads. I think you are trying to dismiss it based on the number of touches. That may be how you look at it. I look at it as a coach who refuses to integrate role players into the offense regardless of whether they manage to jack off an average number if shots or not. Under MDA Novak became a valuable contributor, under Woodson he completely disappeared - it's the same player, same skills different coach. I am not advocating playing him extended minutes so please spare me the derisive laughter, I am just stating that Woody is incapable of integrating these players into an offense where they feel they have a role versus being a complete afterthought.

When your entire offense is dumping the ball to a coue of black holes of your PG making layups for the entire season - you can't expect the role players to suddenly star humming like a well oiled machine in the playoffs on offense. It takes work and commitment upfront both of which were lacking from our coaching staff.

3G4G wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:They better think offense or guys who can play both ways. We need guys who can score points.

Welcome to 2013 BRIGGS...We need primarily defensive players..... offense will be there if a good system is in place. The team doesn't need a GO TO STAR. We simply need good basketball players who play a TEAM game and not an INDIVIDUAL game.

This isn't a Game of 21 Tip Back 2 or Tip Back 5....That's what Melo is built for

exactly....

tkf wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:There's probably 10 players combined on these teams together that are 2 way players.....Knicks have none.

And most of those are willing passers.

I must admit Knicks have none of that.

I am hoping shump turns into that. I think Felton is that but he shouldn't be the second or third best player on a team expected to make noise in the playoffs. Flu certainly isn't a two way player and wasn't a one way player in the Indy series.

I will say this, when playing with Lin, Flu had some of the best offensive games i have seen in his whole career..... half court ball is not for guys like chandler.. push the ball, ball movement, pick and rolls, easy buckets this will keep 'flu" engaged.. not the slow down hand the guy the ball, and flu, you just pick up garbage points... I mean really?

Felton should be a backup, and that is ok,I think felton as a backup is not a bad option to have at all, that means you are pretty strong at the starting spot... shumpert can play a lance stephenson role off the bench, I would love to see him get to that point... but those are internal fixes that can be done, and should be done, but the key is, how to you fix the main pieces.. amare's knees? getting that two way player you can count on every game? that is the problem...

I agree that we should keep our eyes out for another PG, one who can shoot the ball a little bit and can create more fast break opportunities for guys like Chandler. I think with Shumpert emerging as a good outside shooter, he becomes a good 2-way player at the SG spot. But we definitely need to find a PG that can offer more, as well as draft a player who has 2-way potential.

EnySpree wrote:If the knicks had more offensive fire power, Carmelo wouldn't have to be forced to try and drop 40pts every night....the knicks either have players not talented enough to score or flat out afraid to shoot...

Add the fact we have a coach with no offensive creativity other than ISo plays to get baskets.

It's deeper than melo taking shots. Knicks need to upgrade the talent and look to get guys off outside of one on one basketball

Agreed. Well said. It definitely is more of a 'lack of firepower problem' over 'Melo takes too many shots problem.' Melo is forced into take all those extra shots because we don't have better options...I don't care for JR Smith's game (and attitude) anymore -- they're both detrimental to the cause -- but at least, like Melo, he has a 'give me the damn ball' mentality. Those are the only 2 guys....Chandler? Forget it. Dude has ZERO offensive skill. If we can't hook up with him on the lob, he's useless offensively...Amar'e's always hurt and next year will be no different I fear. Can't count on him anymore and if they are, they're kidding themselves...Ray Felton should be one of the better PGs in the NBA but he's just never gonna rise from that middle of the pack tier of player...Shump may have the belly for more of an offensive role -- we'll have to see next year. Dude's jumper has really come far but his finishing ability, something we thought was gonna be a given, surprisingly needs a ton of work.. Copeland likes to shoot but his defense is so poor that it's difficult to play him more minutes....See where I'm going? FLAWED ROSTER, plain and simple. Melo came out and practically begged mgmt. for more offense a few weeks ago. It was in the papers -- Berman may have written the article. That tells me Melo is looking to share the wealth and more importantly, lessen the workload for himself out there. Melo takes all these extra shots a night out of pure necessity. Every open roster spot should be filled by players that know what to do with the ball on the offensive end of the floor.

tkf wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:There's probably 10 players combined on these teams together that are 2 way players.....Knicks have none.

And most of those are willing passers.

I must admit Knicks have none of that.

I am hoping shump turns into that. I think Felton is that but he shouldn't be the second or third best player on a team expected to make noise in the playoffs. Flu certainly isn't a two way player and wasn't a one way player in the Indy series.

I will say this, when playing with Lin, Flu had some of the best offensive games i have seen in his whole career..... half court ball is not for guys like chandler.. push the ball, ball movement, pick and rolls, easy buckets this will keep 'flu" engaged.. not the slow down hand the guy the ball, and flu, you just pick up garbage points... I mean really?

Felton should be a backup, and that is ok,I think felton as a backup is not a bad option to have at all, that means you are pretty strong at the starting spot... shumpert can play a lance stephenson role off the bench, I would love to see him get to that point... but those are internal fixes that can be done, and should be done, but the key is, how to you fix the main pieces.. amare's knees? getting that two way player you can count on every game? that is the problem...

Tyson got more attempts this year in less minutes than last year and it was his most FGAs since playing with Paul. Like I said before Tyson FGAs always drop in the playoffs regardless of PG or tempo.

yellowboy90 wrote:It's about team construction. Rarely do teams have true two way players. They have a couple 2 way players and then 1 way players who are adequate at the other end.

The two way players should be the core pieces of your team, the one way players should be specialist, 6th man type players...

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:It's about team construction. Rarely do teams have true two way players. They have a couple 2 way players and then 1 way players who are adequate at the other end.

The two way players should be the core pieces of your team, the one way players should be specialist, 6th man type players...

This is simply the biggest issue with this team for years. We can't really get to the next level unless the GM focuses like a laser on this principle. You want to bring in guys that are balanced. I would add that it is useful to find guys that fill a role who are also balanced. They won't be great at any one thing, but they can contribute on both ends every night. Players that can thrive in a team concept which is tailor made for the playoffs as well as the regular season.

In the end tho this team needs TALENT. We thought maybe Amar'e would be that other top talent with Melo but he just can't do it with his health issues. Tyson isn't that kind of player, tho he gets paid like one. That only left JR. If your franchise depends on JR to get over the top then your franchise is in trouble!!! The only way this team can get beyond this point is to finally start using the draft to bring in front line talent. Start collecting picks rather than sending them away and really increase the talent you have in your scouting dept. It's like a baseball team with a great minor league program.

EXACTLY.... but right now trying to piece together that type of team with the salaries on board is going to be damn near impossible.. which is why a complete flush while a bold move somewhat will be the smartest move... if you think shumpert has the potential then get another win or PG who can defend and make plays for others....

Tyson chandler is not getting traded, no one is taking that salary and giving up anything we want.. what we can do is hope the blazers are desperate enough to take carmelo, see if we can get batum and Aldridge out of that deal(wishful thinking, I know).. but I would try that.. then you make amare a bench big man until that horrific deal expires, but keep his minutes low and maybe you get a good big off the bench who can have the occasional big game...

now you can throw batum and shumpert at the other teams wing players, your front line will have chandler and LA, along with batum, no defensive weaknesses there.... then draft a pg....keep prigs around, as well.. that is a start....