Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:I'll respect Doc when he is successful with a team that isn't loaded with talent. Celts sucked ass for years under Doc until Ray and Kevin joined the club. During some of those years, they arguable had more talent to work with than Woodson but, never had any real success. Did Doc ever get them past the 1st round before the big 3?

These things always come full circle dont they. MDA sucks. Get a new coach. Same results. Lets look at new coaches. But lets pick one this time with a track record for winning with mediocre talent because thats what we have. Oh wait... there arent any.

Doc had a great year coaching a nobody team to the playoffs after they cleared all their space for TMac and GHill:
http://basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=ORL&lg=n&yr=1999

Coaching is silly. End of the day we are built around a couple of 40% volume shooter. CAnt be suprised when the playoffs start and the shots stop falling. Rotate the coach every year. Folks need to realize its not the coach.

Don't blame the 40% shooters for lack of offensive creativity. It was Woody calling for iso Melo. It was Woody who thought he could rehab Smith to be a second option. It was Woody who put the game plan together it was pretty obvious the players were executing his plan and it sucks in the playoffs. I like his defense first approach but Woody has to increase the level of team oriented offensive execution, Woody failed miserably at that.

my take as well. The coach is responsible for offensive schemes. I don't Blame Melo for the Iso Melo game plan because the coach obviously called for it.

in ten years in the league when has Melo been in an offense that wasnt build around Isos for him? Do you realize its the only way he plays? When coaches try other options Melo stops trying. He's admitted it. Stop blaming Woody for a guy's style of play that hasnt changed in 10 years. Its silly

Your head coach basically had no other plan and continue to live and die by his 40% shooters. Keep blaming the 40% shooters for lack of adjustments.

I fail to see your logic here. Spell it out for me... please. Woody changed guards, forwards, he went small he went big... at the end of the day you have a star player this team is built around who is only comfortable playing one way and one style. But thats on the coach? What is Doc Rivers or Phil JAckson going to do?

Woody did an incredible job with JR this year. The guy drastically improved. We had a carosel of injuries and injured players coming back yet again, including the guy who was supposed to be star #1 or #1a or whatever, and the Knicks still win 50+ but the coach sucks?

You guys are unreal. Open your eyes. Look at history. we traded in all our cards to emulate what Denver went through for 7 years. Thats not hate. Thats an observation. What we are seeing is what we have always seen.

If you cant see this is a straight up talent issue. Hibbert and George were must better than Chandler and Melo plain and simple. Chandler did nothing and Melo's answer was what it always is... shoot more.

Its not that complicated

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:Your head coach basically had no other plan and continue to live and die by his 40% shooters. Keep blaming the 40% shooters for lack of adjustments.

or maybe we agree 100% because I see no other option for Woody then to ride his best players playing the way they are the most comfortable. we saw Copeland get more time, we saw him pull JRs minutes back (too little too late). At the end of the day all coaches go with what got them there because that IS the best coaching.

If Popovich can sit Duncan, Parker and Ginobili down to make a point to his star players why was Woodson not able to do that with Melo and JR. Chandler and Shumpert came out and called out lack of ball movement to why Knicks lost. This is on Woodson for catering to his two favorite players His superstar and his hand picked pet project JR Smith.

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:I'll respect Doc when he is successful with a team that isn't loaded with talent. Celts sucked ass for years under Doc until Ray and Kevin joined the club. During some of those years, they arguable had more talent to work with than Woodson but, never had any real success. Did Doc ever get them past the 1st round before the big 3?

These things always come full circle dont they. MDA sucks. Get a new coach. Same results. Lets look at new coaches. But lets pick one this time with a track record for winning with mediocre talent because thats what we have. Oh wait... there arent any.

Doc had a great year coaching a nobody team to the playoffs after they cleared all their space for TMac and GHill:
http://basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=ORL&lg=n&yr=1999

Coaching is silly. End of the day we are built around a couple of 40% volume shooter. CAnt be suprised when the playoffs start and the shots stop falling. Rotate the coach every year. Folks need to realize its not the coach.

Don't blame the 40% shooters for lack of offensive creativity. It was Woody calling for iso Melo. It was Woody who thought he could rehab Smith to be a second option. It was Woody who put the game plan together it was pretty obvious the players were executing his plan and it sucks in the playoffs. I like his defense first approach but Woody has to increase the level of team oriented offensive execution, Woody failed miserably at that.

my take as well. The coach is responsible for offensive schemes. I don't Blame Melo for the Iso Melo game plan because the coach obviously called for it.

in ten years in the league when has Melo been in an offense that wasnt build around Isos for him? Do you realize its the only way he plays? When coaches try other options Melo stops trying. He's admitted it. Stop blaming Woody for a guy's style of play that hasnt changed in 10 years. Its silly

Your head coach basically had no other plan and continue to live and die by his 40% shooters. Keep blaming the 40% shooters for lack of adjustments.

totally disagree. Your way off on this. Did Woody make changes? Did he try to go with size? Did he try to go with shooters? I seem to remember Woody making several adjustments. The problem was the other teams were better. Was more Novak going to win that Pacer's series?

I fail to see your logic here. Spell it out for me... please. Woody changed guards, forwards, he went small he went big... at the end of the day you have a star player this team is built around who is only comfortable playing one way and one style. But thats on the coach? What is Doc Rivers or Phil JAckson going to do?

Woody did an incredible job with JR this year. The guy drastically improved. We had a carosel of injuries and injured players coming back yet again, including the guy who was supposed to be star #1 or #1a or whatever, and the Knicks still win 50+ but the coach sucks?

You guys are unreal. Open your eyes. Look at history. we traded in all our cards to emulate what Denver went through for 7 years. Thats not hate. Thats an observation. What we are seeing is what we have always seen.

If you cant see this is a straight up talent issue. Hibbert and George were must better than Chandler and Melo plain and simple. Chandler did nothing and Melo's answer was what it always is... shoot more.

Its not that complicated

Seems fans don't want to accept that Indian IS/WAS the better team. We can consider adjustments all we want but, the superior teams tends to win.

DurzoBlint wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:I'll respect Doc when he is successful with a team that isn't loaded with talent. Celts sucked ass for years under Doc until Ray and Kevin joined the club. During some of those years, they arguable had more talent to work with than Woodson but, never had any real success. Did Doc ever get them past the 1st round before the big 3?

These things always come full circle dont they. MDA sucks. Get a new coach. Same results. Lets look at new coaches. But lets pick one this time with a track record for winning with mediocre talent because thats what we have. Oh wait... there arent any.

Doc had a great year coaching a nobody team to the playoffs after they cleared all their space for TMac and GHill:
http://basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=ORL&lg=n&yr=1999

Coaching is silly. End of the day we are built around a couple of 40% volume shooter. CAnt be suprised when the playoffs start and the shots stop falling. Rotate the coach every year. Folks need to realize its not the coach.

Don't blame the 40% shooters for lack of offensive creativity. It was Woody calling for iso Melo. It was Woody who thought he could rehab Smith to be a second option. It was Woody who put the game plan together it was pretty obvious the players were executing his plan and it sucks in the playoffs. I like his defense first approach but Woody has to increase the level of team oriented offensive execution, Woody failed miserably at that.

my take as well. The coach is responsible for offensive schemes. I don't Blame Melo for the Iso Melo game plan because the coach obviously called for it.

in ten years in the league when has Melo been in an offense that wasnt build around Isos for him? Do you realize its the only way he plays? When coaches try other options Melo stops trying. He's admitted it. Stop blaming Woody for a guy's style of play that hasnt changed in 10 years. Its silly

Your head coach basically had no other plan and continue to live and die by his 40% shooters. Keep blaming the 40% shooters for lack of adjustments.

totally disagree. Your way off on this. Did Woody make changes? Did he try to go with size? Did he try to go with shooters? I seem to remember Woody making several adjustments. The problem was the other teams were better. Was more Novak going to win that Pacer's series?

I fail to see your logic here. Spell it out for me... please. Woody changed guards, forwards, he went small he went big... at the end of the day you have a star player this team is built around who is only comfortable playing one way and one style. But thats on the coach? What is Doc Rivers or Phil JAckson going to do?

Woody did an incredible job with JR this year. The guy drastically improved. We had a carosel of injuries and injured players coming back yet again, including the guy who was supposed to be star #1 or #1a or whatever, and the Knicks still win 50+ but the coach sucks?

You guys are unreal. Open your eyes. Look at history. we traded in all our cards to emulate what Denver went through for 7 years. Thats not hate. Thats an observation. What we are seeing is what we have always seen.

If you cant see this is a straight up talent issue. Hibbert and George were must better than Chandler and Melo plain and simple. Chandler did nothing and Melo's answer was what it always is... shoot more.

Its not that complicated

Seems fans don't want to accept that Indian IS/WAS the better team. We can consider adjustments all we want but, the superior teams tends to win.

When are folks going to open their eyes? When player dont execute, ESPECIALLY star players the coach is handcuffed.

I don't think Woodys wart warrant a coaching change, just, as I keep saying: Hire an offensive consultant. He can have Herbs spot as far as I'm concerned. What does Herb do except Parrot what the head coach says.

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:Your head coach basically had no other plan and continue to live and die by his 40% shooters. Keep blaming the 40% shooters for lack of adjustments.

or maybe we agree 100% because I see no other option for Woody then to ride his best players playing the way they are the most comfortable. we saw Copeland get more time, we saw him pull JRs minutes back (too little too late). At the end of the day all coaches go with what got them there because that IS the best coaching.

I agree with you his roster failed him just so much smoke and mirrors a coach can do. But let's be real here he did change lineups he went big with Chandler and Martin weak offensive players which left the team more reliant on isolation play. He tried to add shooters so he could spread the floor for more isolation plays. In the playoffs you have to have execution offense you have to have a first, second option and third. He did everything but deal with the 40% shooter and that is the more disturbing part than anything else.

If Popovich can sit Duncan, Parker and Ginobili down to make a point to his star players why was Woodson not able to do that with Melo and JR. Chandler and Shumpert came out and called out lack of ball movement to why Knicks lost. This is on Woodson for catering to his two favorite players His superstar and his hand picked pet project JR Smith.

Im reading your post and shaking my head, because I KNOW YOU KNOW better than this. So Woody takes a mental case in JR, has him playing his BEST ball of his career en route to the Knicks winning their most games in what 20 years??? And this failure is Woody's fault?

How about this? How about Woody did such a killer job this year it screwed up all your playoff expectations.... hows that? Because the Knicks were not close to playing at Indy's level. Their players were better. Chandler was destroyed by Hibbert. George was a bigger impact than Melo easily. The only game we looked decent in was when Indy's PG was hurt. We got smoked. It wasnt coaching amigo. Cmon

I might be saying something different from others-

I don't disagree the players and talent bear responsibility. I thought we had a team that had a record that didn't reflect the true talent - it was better than we were.

We did have the home court against Indiana because we had a better record, no?

But, while I agree the players are not perfect, you can't give Woodson a pass either. The head coaching position, just like the roster, could be improved upon in the off season.

Debatable as to whether Rivers is an upgrade.

Debatable? Why would a first round loser be an upgrade over Woodson right now? Do you see some magical ability behind Doc's riding of the original Starphucques all the way to a chip? What else is on his resume that you're going to debate with? His fabulous stay in Otown?

When do we start the "Fire Grunny and hire Danny Ainge/Kevin McHale?" thread?

woodson was weak with carmelo. promoting iso ball and not demanding that carmelo stay in shape and defend the opponent's best wing or swing player. i think woodson is a phony. he compromised himself from the beginning when he was forced to fire his agent in order to appease dolan.

that's a recipe for failure.

doc rivers would demand more from anthony and anthony doesn't have the goods to deliver.

dk7th wrote:doc rivers will not be interested in coaching carmelo anthony. why should he?

woodson was weak with carmelo. promoting iso ball and not demanding that carmelo stay in shape and defend the opponent's best wing or swing player. i think woodson is a phony. he compromised himself from the beginning when he was forced to fire his agent in order to appease dolan.

that's a recipe for failure.

doc rivers would demand more from anthony and anthony doesn't have the goods to deliver.

I sorry to keep pointing out your off base commentary from time to time but it must be done..Melo has played PF all year this past year...A grueling position for him and anyone..It is not possible not to be in optimum shape and defend the position and then be relied upon to be featured in the offense..Then go on a tear late in the year looking like the best player on the planet...Impossible..Please take note of LeBron James complaining about playing PF for half a game during the Indy series...

LeBron James: “Playing Power Forward Is Taxing On Me”...Note zero complaints from Melo...

Maybe Melo should defend Indy's best wing player in George and West in the post next year at the same time in the same possession..No reason he shouldn't be able to do it if he was in shape...He should be able to cover two guys at once...

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:doc rivers will not be interested in coaching carmelo anthony. why should he?

woodson was weak with carmelo. promoting iso ball and not demanding that carmelo stay in shape and defend the opponent's best wing or swing player. i think woodson is a phony. he compromised himself from the beginning when he was forced to fire his agent in order to appease dolan.

that's a recipe for failure.

doc rivers would demand more from anthony and anthony doesn't have the goods to deliver.

Well first off, Woodson called him all summer making sure he got in the best shape of his life. He even went to London at one point cause, according Melo himself, he was ignoring Woodson's phone calls.

Second, why would Melo have to guard the best wing player? Hes not our best defender and he was playing PF anyway so that would put Shump/Brewer on his man which is even worse.

you don't understand-- he is a tweener. he isn't agile enough on defense to guard the better perimeter players and he isn't big enough or strong enough to guard the better post players. on offense he is also a tweener who can occasionally create matchup problems but he is always at a disadvantage defensively. the guy could get away with a lot of stuff during his one year in college-- michael beasley did too-- but he has always had trouble at the nba level. woodson wanted him to get in shape for not only its own sake but because he wanted him to be able to guard the perimeter. you're post seems to be avoiding this central issue. you want the guy with the biggest contract to be a two-way, complete player. he will never be a complete player but he should be a better two-way player. he has never maintained supreme conditioning but woodson is too afraid to call him on it.

doc rivers would not tolerate melo's non-commitment to winning. people want to say he was nothing before the big three well he is something now and i highly doubt he is going to come to a situation like the knicks are in. as jackson said this is a clumsy team.