yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

knickscity wrote:

VCoug wrote:I'm too young to have watched King play for the Knicks so I can only go by their statistics. The thing that jumps out at me is that King shot a much higher % from the field than Melo. For his career King shot 51.8% from the field while Melo's only a 45.6% career shooter. King's worst shooting season was 90-91 near the end of his career when he shot 47.2% from the field; Melo only has 3 seasons where he's shot that well and one of them was the year he shot 47.6%. Melo's a better 3-point shooter but is only 33.4% for his career which isn't very good, though he's been better 2 of the 3 years he's been here. King was a bad 3-point shooter and only took 134 in his entire career; completely unsurprising since he came into the league before there even was a 3-point shot.

What's interesting is that Melo is a much better FT shooter than King, shooting 80.8% from the line for his career compared to 73% for King. This leads me to believe that King was better at getting off good, high percentage shots than Melo is; King probably took and hit more shots in the paint and at the rim than Melo does. Melo, for his career, is only an average shooter at the rim and below average when in the paint. Overall, he's only average when within 8 feet of the basket.

If you're into advanced stats they look very similar:

TS% - King 56.1%; Melo 54.55

eFG% - King 51.9% Melo 48%

ORating - King and Melo 108

DRating - King and Melo 107

Career Win Shares - King 75.4 (874 games played); Melo 72.4 (713 games played)

WS/48 - King 0.123; Melo 0.134

Sorry my man, you cannot use stats to compare the two, this is where advanced stats fail.

Melo is bailed out by shooting threes, and that favors players in ratings.

King took easy shots, shots near the rim and not far from it, melo wants to perfect the midrange, the least efficient shot in sports.

Actually, if you re-read my 2nd paragraph I came to the same conclusion.

Then again you would think that Melo wouldn't even try threes since they wouldn't exist back then so you can;t really compare.

The three point line was certainly existent back then.

It did but after a year or two when he was already in the league. HE grew up not thinking about the three since it wasn't used in college until 86. So I doubt it was stressed for a while. I hear Magic mention from time to tme how his game may have been different if he grew up with the three point shot.

Magic couldn't shoot jumpers at all, and he was drafted within the same year the three pointer was made.

King didn't shoot long jumpers at all, the three ball wasn't an enticment because his game was closer to the basket.

knickscity wrote:

playa2 wrote:In a day when most of you judge players by rings.

Neither of them made their teammates better and neither of them won rings in the association.

Bernard was very athletic and the players in his day were not like they are today. I heard Jordan say the greatest defender he faced wasn't Bruce Bowen of Gerald Wilkins, but Mitch Richmond!

The more athletic the league the more you tend to be hindered trying to score, so Bernard although great had a lil advantage there.

My question had to do with scoring, both of those players excelled at scoring when their teammates just watched them go to work.

They both had the ability to take over games and put fear in those who tried to defend them.

As far as scoring I see no difference.

Injuries killed Kings career, not the player he played with, and the competition he played against was vastly greater.

Would you seriously compare the 80's Celtics in which King helped force a game 7 as equal to getting knocked out in 6 with HCA by the Pacers?

Players dont fear Melo, they know they have a pretty good shot of holding him to below 45%, he can actually do it on his own ungarded.

Players absolutely feared King because his playoff performances were always BETTER than the regular season.

What amazes me with this convo, is it's obvious who's seen Bernard play and who hasn't.

Melo and Bernard are nothing alike.

You're right, I should've put their playoff numbers up as well.

King's numbers on the left, Melo's on the right.

Games Played - 28; 66

PPG - 24.5; 25.7

FG% - 55.9; 41.7

3PT% - 25% on four shots; 32%

FT% - 72.9; 82.6

Reb - 4.3; 7.3

Asst - 2.3; 2.8

TS% - 60.2; 51.3

eFG% - 56; 44.2

ORating - 119; 105

DRating - 113; 108

PER - 22.2; 20

Total WS - 3.4; 5.7

WS/48 - 0.173; 0.106

In the playoffs it's no contest, King was much better than Melo.

VCoug wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

knickscity wrote:

VCoug wrote:I'm too young to have watched King play for the Knicks so I can only go by their statistics. The thing that jumps out at me is that King shot a much higher % from the field than Melo. For his career King shot 51.8% from the field while Melo's only a 45.6% career shooter. King's worst shooting season was 90-91 near the end of his career when he shot 47.2% from the field; Melo only has 3 seasons where he's shot that well and one of them was the year he shot 47.6%. Melo's a better 3-point shooter but is only 33.4% for his career which isn't very good, though he's been better 2 of the 3 years he's been here. King was a bad 3-point shooter and only took 134 in his entire career; completely unsurprising since he came into the league before there even was a 3-point shot.

What's interesting is that Melo is a much better FT shooter than King, shooting 80.8% from the line for his career compared to 73% for King. This leads me to believe that King was better at getting off good, high percentage shots than Melo is; King probably took and hit more shots in the paint and at the rim than Melo does. Melo, for his career, is only an average shooter at the rim and below average when in the paint. Overall, he's only average when within 8 feet of the basket.

If you're into advanced stats they look very similar:

TS% - King 56.1%; Melo 54.55

eFG% - King 51.9% Melo 48%

ORating - King and Melo 108

DRating - King and Melo 107

Career Win Shares - King 75.4 (874 games played); Melo 72.4 (713 games played)

WS/48 - King 0.123; Melo 0.134

Sorry my man, you cannot use stats to compare the two, this is where advanced stats fail.

Melo is bailed out by shooting threes, and that favors players in ratings.

King took easy shots, shots near the rim and not far from it, melo wants to perfect the midrange, the least efficient shot in sports.

Actually, if you re-read my 2nd paragraph I came to the same conclusion.

Then again you would think that Melo wouldn't even try threes since they wouldn't exist back then so you can;t really compare.

The three point line was certainly existent back then.

The 3-point line was adopted in 79-80, King's 3rd year in the league. 1980 was the same year that the NCAA started using it as well. It wasn't a part of anyone's repertoire so it's safe to say that Melo probably wouldn't have been shooting many 3-pointers since no one else really as either.

For what it's worth, if you don't count 3-pointers Melo's career shooting % goes from 45.6% to 47.6%

As far as the NCAA comment, the three ball was actually used system wide in 86, some schools didn't even recognize the shot before then.

What's not being said was Bernard had supreme focus and a nay killer instinct. He was very nasty and menacing on the court. He had a superior focus unlike anything I've seen. He was a cold blooded killer.

As far as making his teammates better? The knicks roster during his stint was laughable. Bernard king put those guys on his back. He single handedly beat the Celtics in the playoffs. He averaged 40 in a playoff series. Thus is during an era where you could get shot and three ref wouldn't call a foul.

Don't disrespect Bernard simply because you never saw him. He was one of the greats and his acl injury was very serious at the time because before him nobody came back from it. He was the first to come back and become an all star again.

The knicks ****ed that up by not giving him a chance to play with Ewing. Bernard dropped 50 on us when he played in Washington. He was a true beast.

yellowboy90 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

knickscity wrote:

playa2 wrote:In a day when most of you judge players by rings.

Neither of them made their teammates better and neither of them won rings in the association.

Bernard was very athletic and the players in his day were not like they are today. I heard Jordan say the greatest defender he faced wasn't Bruce Bowen of Gerald Wilkins, but Mitch Richmond!

The more athletic the league the more you tend to be hindered trying to score, so Bernard although great had a lil advantage there.

My question had to do with scoring, both of those players excelled at scoring when their teammates just watched them go to work.

They both had the ability to take over games and put fear in those who tried to defend them.

As far as scoring I see no difference.

Injuries killed Kings career, not the player he played with, and the competition he played against was vastly greater.

Would you seriously compare the 80's Celtics in which King helped force a game 7 as equal to getting knocked out in 6 with HCA by the Pacers?

Players dont fear Melo, they know they have a pretty good shot of holding him to below 45%, he can actually do it on his own ungarded.

Players absolutely feared King because his playoff performances were always BETTER than the regular season.

What amazes me with this convo, is it's obvious who's seen Bernard play and who hasn't.

Melo and Bernard are nothing alike.

You're right, I should've put their playoff numbers up as well.

King's numbers on the left, Melo's on the right.

Games Played - 28; 66

PPG - 24.5; 25.7

FG% - 55.9; 41.7

3PT% - 25% on four shots; 32%

FT% - 72.9; 82.6

Reb - 4.3; 7.3

Asst - 2.3; 2.8

TS% - 60.2; 51.3

eFG% - 56; 44.2

ORating - 119; 105

DRating - 113; 108

PER - 22.2; 20

Total WS - 3.4; 5.7

WS/48 - 0.173; 0.106

In the playoffs it's no contest, King was much better than Melo.

Very true although if those numbers where reversed it would be about Melo not doing the little things. I didn't realize the lack of playoff games for King.

LOL your right . It would be look less assists and rebounds he doesnt do anything but score

knickscity wrote:

playa2 wrote:In a day when most of you judge players by rings.

Neither of them made their teammates better and neither of them won rings in the association.

Bernard was very athletic and the players in his day were not like they are today. I heard Jordan say the greatest defender he faced wasn't Bruce Bowen of Gerald Wilkins, but Mitch Richmond!

The more athletic the league the more you tend to be hindered trying to score, so Bernard although great had a lil advantage there.

My question had to do with scoring, both of those players excelled at scoring when their teammates just watched them go to work.

They both had the ability to take over games and put fear in those who tried to defend them.

As far as scoring I see no difference.

Injuries killed Kings career, not the player he played with, and the competition he played against was vastly greater.

Would you seriously compare the 80's Celtics in which King helped force a game 7 as equal to getting knocked out in 6 with HCA by the Pacers?

Players dont fear Melo, they know they have a pretty good shot of holding him to below 45%, he can actually do it on his own ungarded.

Players absolutely feared King because his playoff performances were always BETTER than the regular season.

What amazes me with this convo, is it's obvious who's seen Bernard play and who hasn't.

Melo and Bernard are nothing alike.

EXACTLY.. the celtics feared Bernard, he came to NY and all of a sudden electricity was in the air, it was amazing, I went to his first game as a knick, it was CRAZY!! the celtics had one of the greatest teams in NBA history back then and they could not stop king, Cedric maxwell, then Mchale, they tried everyone on him, and they could not stop him.. he was a special player... There was a video with him and Darell Walker working out with Red Auerbach, just amazing the little things those guys mastered back then that made them so damn good..

dk7th wrote:you can't look at bernard king's career numbers alongside anthony's.

his first few years king developed substance abuse issues and found himself out of the league. he was an inefficient scorer much like melo remains.

however, while out of the league he got clean and was taken on by pete newell as a project-- the same pete newell whose big man's camp walton, olajuwon, and shaq attended. (ewing, by the way, refused to attend and his underachievement as a center is due directly to his spurning the opportunity to actually develop a post game, where he could actually become something of a quarterback and facilitator.)

when king came back, he had the footwork necessary to dominate in the post and he became a superlatively efficient scorer, posting a TS% of 59.7 over a five-year period, which is truly elite.

unfortunately he blew out his knee late in the 84-85 season and was never quite the same player. too bad this was before arthroscopy as he could have made another comeback.

I was at home watching that game, in my apt in the bronx.. when he went down, I knew it was over.. I actually had tears in my eye...... LOL.. no lie man... I was such a fan of this dude...

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:you can't look at bernard king's career numbers alongside anthony's.

his first few years king developed substance abuse issues and found himself out of the league. he was an inefficient scorer much like melo remains.

however, while out of the league he got clean and was taken on by pete newell as a project-- the same pete newell whose big man's camp walton, olajuwon, and shaq attended. (ewing, by the way, refused to attend and his underachievement as a center is due directly to his spurning the opportunity to actually develop a post game, where he could actually become something of a quarterback and facilitator.)

when king came back, he had the footwork necessary to dominate in the post and he became a superlatively efficient scorer, posting a TS% of 59.7 over a five-year period, which is truly elite.

unfortunately he blew out his knee late in the 84-85 season and was never quite the same player. too bad this was before arthroscopy as he could have made another comeback.

I was at home watching that game, in my apt in the bronx.. when he went down, I knew it was over.. I actually had tears in my eye...... LOL.. no lie man... I was such a fan of this dude...

nothing like watching guys with actual footwork play this game. not too many players with genuine footwork skills.

watching dudes palm and travel is not fun.

I mentioned this video with Red Auerbach working out with King and Darell Walker, he spent time, detailing small things like feeding the post, footwork, picks.. and for Bernard you could tell he was right there with Red, as if yea, we on the same page.... the small things that make players great.. carmelo has the worst footwork I have ever seen, this guy doesn't seem to even care about the small things,because in his mind.. he is the greatest.... I love how he dribbles, dribbles and then he puts his head down as to look to see if both his feet are still pointing in the same direction and jacks up a shot.. LOL.. it is funny.. like.. dribble, dribble, look down real quick.. shooooooooot!!!!

I must also add that Mchale had great footwork,along with hakeem, they could turn you into a pretzel without moving 5 feet in either direction.. LOL

Jmpasq wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

knickscity wrote:

playa2 wrote:In a day when most of you judge players by rings.

Neither of them made their teammates better and neither of them won rings in the association.

Bernard was very athletic and the players in his day were not like they are today. I heard Jordan say the greatest defender he faced wasn't Bruce Bowen of Gerald Wilkins, but Mitch Richmond!

The more athletic the league the more you tend to be hindered trying to score, so Bernard although great had a lil advantage there.

My question had to do with scoring, both of those players excelled at scoring when their teammates just watched them go to work.

They both had the ability to take over games and put fear in those who tried to defend them.

As far as scoring I see no difference.

Injuries killed Kings career, not the player he played with, and the competition he played against was vastly greater.

Would you seriously compare the 80's Celtics in which King helped force a game 7 as equal to getting knocked out in 6 with HCA by the Pacers?

Players dont fear Melo, they know they have a pretty good shot of holding him to below 45%, he can actually do it on his own ungarded.

Players absolutely feared King because his playoff performances were always BETTER than the regular season.

What amazes me with this convo, is it's obvious who's seen Bernard play and who hasn't.

Melo and Bernard are nothing alike.

You're right, I should've put their playoff numbers up as well.

King's numbers on the left, Melo's on the right.

Games Played - 28; 66

PPG - 24.5; 25.7

FG% - 55.9; 41.7

3PT% - 25% on four shots; 32%

FT% - 72.9; 82.6

Reb - 4.3; 7.3

Asst - 2.3; 2.8

TS% - 60.2; 51.3

eFG% - 56; 44.2

ORating - 119; 105

DRating - 113; 108

PER - 22.2; 20

Total WS - 3.4; 5.7

WS/48 - 0.173; 0.106

In the playoffs it's no contest, King was much better than Melo.

Very true although if those numbers where reversed it would be about Melo not doing the little things. I didn't realize the lack of playoff games for King.

LOL your right . It would be look less assists and rebounds he doesnt do anything but score

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:you can't look at bernard king's career numbers alongside anthony's.

his first few years king developed substance abuse issues and found himself out of the league. he was an inefficient scorer much like melo remains.

however, while out of the league he got clean and was taken on by pete newell as a project-- the same pete newell whose big man's camp walton, olajuwon, and shaq attended. (ewing, by the way, refused to attend and his underachievement as a center is due directly to his spurning the opportunity to actually develop a post game, where he could actually become something of a quarterback and facilitator.)

when king came back, he had the footwork necessary to dominate in the post and he became a superlatively efficient scorer, posting a TS% of 59.7 over a five-year period, which is truly elite.

unfortunately he blew out his knee late in the 84-85 season and was never quite the same player. too bad this was before arthroscopy as he could have made another comeback.

I was at home watching that game, in my apt in the bronx.. when he went down, I knew it was over.. I actually had tears in my eye...... LOL.. no lie man... I was such a fan of this dude...

I was home watching the game as well - crushing to see it happen, but someone correct me - they were pretty much out of the play offs at the time anyway?

He was a great player and deserved to end his career better.

Uptown wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

VCoug wrote:I'm too young to have watched King play for the Knicks so I can only go by their statistics. The thing that jumps out at me is that King shot a much higher % from the field than Melo. For his career King shot 51.8% from the field while Melo's only a 45.6% career shooter. King's worst shooting season was 90-91 near the end of his career when he shot 47.2% from the field; Melo only has 3 seasons where he's shot that well and one of them was the year he shot 47.6%. Melo's a better 3-point shooter but is only 33.4% for his career which isn't very good, though he's been better 2 of the 3 years he's been here. King was a bad 3-point shooter and only took 134 in his entire career; completely unsurprising since he came into the league before there even was a 3-point shot.

What's interesting is that Melo is a much better FT shooter than King, shooting 80.8% from the line for his career compared to 73% for King. This leads me to believe that King was better at getting off good, high percentage shots than Melo is; King probably took and hit more shots in the paint and at the rim than Melo does. Melo, for his career, is only an average shooter at the rim and below average when in the paint. Overall, he's only average when within 8 feet of the basket.

If you're into advanced stats they look very similar:

TS% - King 56.1%; Melo 54.55

eFG% - King 51.9% Melo 48%

ORating - King and Melo 108

DRating - King and Melo 107

Career Win Shares - King 75.4 (874 games played); Melo 72.4 (713 games played)

WS/48 - King 0.123; Melo 0.134

King was a much better player before his ACL tear. Before the tear, he was better than Melo ever was. But he still was not a superstar.

Spoken like someone who probably never saw King play. Bernard was indeed a superstar from 83-85. In fact Larry Bird called him the best pure scorer he had had played against was among the top handfull of players in the league in his opinion. King lit up the best defenders in the league during that stretch, from Cornbred Maxwell, to Cooper, Cureton (sp) etc. He avereaged about 40 for aplayoff series against the Pistons and almost single handedly beat the champs (Celts) in a series. How could you say he wasn't a superstar....BTW, he's a hall a famer....so how wssn't he a superstar?