MaTT4281 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

MaTT4281 wrote:

Panos wrote:

fishmike wrote:David Lee has blossomed. Nate has a nice role and had monster playoff games. Gallo was leading scorer on a very good Nuggs team before tearing the ALC. Chandler hasnt been healthy but I still see a good NBA rotation player. Landry Fields was a starter. Shump looks great.

Knicks have drafted pretty well. Its building the roster and the other moves that have been poor

How about Trevor Ariza?

Hate the throw the name out there, but when you're talking Nate, Lee, Chandler, Ariza, those successful late 1st rounders we've brought in, you reluctantly have to give some kudos to Isiah. Really the only picks he botched (aside from the many traded away), were Frye, who is certainly serviceable, and Balkman.

not really... he traded Ariza for Stevie Franchise so he doesn't deserve to be on the list. You also have to consider how disappointing Frye (Bynum was available), Balkman, and Mardy Collins were. I don't think a team built around Nate, Lee, and Chandler deserves any reocgnition whatsoever, especially when he traded piacks to get Curry, Crawford, etc. etc.

...and Steve Francis was a part of the centerpiece that got us a future two-time allstar big man, Zach Randolph, so you got to give Isiah credit for turning a mid-2nd round pick into that. Like you though, I don't think Isiah was as good at the draft as most gave him credit for. The Balkman draft was particularly painful because Rajon Rondo was still on the board; and Collins because of Paul Millsap and Kyle Lowry.

Trying to keep the draft separate from the nightmare that was the rest of Isiah's tenure (so the fact that he traded Ariza for nothing is ignored), and talk only about the scouting and talent recognition. I did note Frye was a botched pick, and forgot Mardy (how the hell could I forget Mardy?!), but considering the earliest pick of the lot above was #21 (Nate), [to go with Chandler (23), Lee (30), and Ariza (44)] you can survive a botched Mardy Collins or Renaldo Balkman. Wasting the lottery picks though is what killed us.

Agreed about the lottery picks killing us. I think that was ultimately the nail in Isiah's coffin because those picks turned into LaMarcus Aldridge AND Joakim Noah for Eddy Curry. I would never have traded Eddy for one of those guys, let alone two. Aside from that trade, I had no qualms with Isiah because he had very little to work with. Every trade he made got us marginally better talent, which is ultimately what you need to make more deals and/or build a winner. Even so, I think Isiah gets far too much credit for his skills in the draft; the reasons for which I've already mentioned.

As for Mardy Collins, I think he is one of those guys that was never really given a chance. Isiah continually misutilized him and then Mike Dunleavy, who loved his game, got fired the following year after the Clippers traded for him. Had Collins been in a stable situation like the Spurs, I think he would've still been in the league as a capable rotation player. Even so, the dude sure as hell wasn't better than Paul Millsap, Ramon Sessions and Kyle Lowry.

fishmike wrote:David Lee has blossomed. Nate has a nice role and had monster playoff games. Gallo was leading scorer on a very good Nuggs team before tearing the ALC. Chandler hasnt been healthy but I still see a good NBA rotation player. Landry Fields was a starter. Shump looks great.

Knicks have drafted pretty well. Its building the roster and the other moves that have been poor

NardDogNation wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:David Lee has blossomed. Nate has a nice role and had monster playoff games. Gallo was leading scorer on a very good Nuggs team before tearing the ALC. Chandler hasnt been healthy but I still see a good NBA rotation player. Landry Fields was a starter. Shump looks great.

Knicks have drafted pretty well. Its building the roster and the other moves that have been poor

A couple things lucking into a Top 10 Big man of all time certainly helped make other moves look better. Market place plays the biggest role. Do u think if that Spurs team was in NY that the fan base and media would allow the roster to go 6 years without a trip to the finals because I don't. U need patience , time, and luck to build a roster like that and those things arent in abundance with the franchise or fanbase. Pressure starts building and the team gets blown up. Every GM is guilty of it in NY even Walsh he panicked and made a bad signing with Amare. He was afraid he was going to get destroyed in the Media if he didnt get 1 name player after handing good players and draft picks to any organization that would absorb their contract

Our core under the Ewing years remained pretty static over the years and they never had the advantage of having won 3 championships. We made stupid moves early on, like trading Mark Jackson and Rod Strickland but other than that, we didn't make very many panic moves. On the flipside, the Spurs supporting cast changed dramatically around Duncan, Parker and Ginobli over the years. They are the only 3 guys that were with the Spurs from their last championship, so its fair to say that the Spurs have shaken things up on several ocassions.

NardDogNation wrote:

MaTT4281 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

MaTT4281 wrote:

Panos wrote:

fishmike wrote:David Lee has blossomed. Nate has a nice role and had monster playoff games. Gallo was leading scorer on a very good Nuggs team before tearing the ALC. Chandler hasnt been healthy but I still see a good NBA rotation player. Landry Fields was a starter. Shump looks great.

Knicks have drafted pretty well. Its building the roster and the other moves that have been poor

How about Trevor Ariza?

Hate the throw the name out there, but when you're talking Nate, Lee, Chandler, Ariza, those successful late 1st rounders we've brought in, you reluctantly have to give some kudos to Isiah. Really the only picks he botched (aside from the many traded away), were Frye, who is certainly serviceable, and Balkman.

not really... he traded Ariza for Stevie Franchise so he doesn't deserve to be on the list. You also have to consider how disappointing Frye (Bynum was available), Balkman, and Mardy Collins were. I don't think a team built around Nate, Lee, and Chandler deserves any reocgnition whatsoever, especially when he traded piacks to get Curry, Crawford, etc. etc.

...and Steve Francis was a part of the centerpiece that got us a future two-time allstar big man, Zach Randolph, so you got to give Isiah credit for turning a mid-2nd round pick into that. Like you though, I don't think Isiah was as good at the draft as most gave him credit for. The Balkman draft was particularly painful because Rajon Rondo was still on the board; and Collins because of Paul Millsap and Kyle Lowry.

Trying to keep the draft separate from the nightmare that was the rest of Isiah's tenure (so the fact that he traded Ariza for nothing is ignored), and talk only about the scouting and talent recognition. I did note Frye was a botched pick, and forgot Mardy (how the hell could I forget Mardy?!), but considering the earliest pick of the lot above was #21 (Nate), [to go with Chandler (23), Lee (30), and Ariza (44)] you can survive a botched Mardy Collins or Renaldo Balkman. Wasting the lottery picks though is what killed us.

Agreed about the lottery picks killing us. I think that was ultimately the nail in Isiah's coffin because those picks turned into LaMarcus Aldridge AND Joakim Noah for Eddy Curry. I would never have traded Eddy for one of those guys, let alone two. Aside from that trade, I had no qualms with Isiah because he had very little to work with. Every trade he made got us marginally better talent, which is ultimately what you need to make more deals and/or build a winner. Even so, I think Isiah gets far too much credit for his skills in the draft; the reasons for which I've already mentioned.

As for Mardy Collins, I think he is one of those guys that was never really given a chance. Isiah continually misutilized him and then Mike Dunleavy, who loved his game, got fired the following year after the Clippers traded for him. Had Collins been in a stable situation like the Spurs, I think he would've still been in the league as a capable rotation player. Even so, the dude sure as hell wasn't better than Paul Millsap, Ramon Sessions and Kyle Lowry.

Aside from the curry deal you have qualms?

We got marginally better by taking on contracts. I think the year our salary was 119million and we won 23 games.

119mm

23 wins.

Hired larry brown and paid him 18mm for one year. Thats not on the 119mm.

In the history of pro sports has their ever been as epic a failure? And on top of that you get named in a sexual harrassment case, MSG has the ignorance to publically fight it, and lost it! 11mm. Thats not on the 119mm eitehr.

That curry trade was so bombastically god awful that the only way it could be worse is if every time you read about there was the haunting soundtrack music to go with it!

That does not mean everything he touched was garbage but it never added up. Reezy was a very good player for other teams. DLee is an allstar now. I also agree Mardy was one of those guys that falls thru the cracks. Balkman was a mistake but most teams make them too! I understood what he tried to do with Frye and for a while the kid was coming along very well. HE was NBA ready and we needed that at the time.

All this and we have not discussed a word about banking the franchise on Marbury!

We have the benefit of hindsight but lets be real, when you add it up Isiah was awful and lousy person to boot.