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Gotta get a Breakdown PG!
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knicks1248
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6/7/2013  8:48 AM
yellowboy90 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Vmart wrote:I don't know how the Knicks will do it but the player that can get the Knicks everything is Monta Ellis. Ellis' game has a lot of Parker in him. He is a high percentage shooter and has a great ability to shoot and penetrate. He is a decent passer too. People kill Ellis for the wrong reasons, he has played on a lot of weak teams.

Yea I said the same things with my sons about looking to get Ellis. He's the kind of guard i'm talking about for sure. We just can't keep going along with Melo as the only real threat and no real speed or scoring from our PG spot. We have to be able to keep the pressure on teams defensively and breakdown guards really make it tough on defenses.

If Ellis shot better from three or took less 3s he would be pretty good option. There is no way the knicks are getting Ellis so no need to discuss it. Ellis needs to take a look at his game and put in some major work in the gym this summer.

I agree, if he can't knock down 3's he's not an option, but i like everything else about ellis game.

The nate rob and thomas comparison is base on the similarities to there game, but i think I.Thomas doesn't lose control like nate. I would give up copeland and novak, for the kings 2nd rounder and I Thomas

ES
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NYKBocker
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6/7/2013  8:52 AM
Finestrg wrote:I wouldn't mind trying to emulate what Morey continually does out in Houston year after year -- he values these bargain-bin types and by doing so, he's come up with a few gems. Briggs has talked about PF/C Greg Smith -- I agree, that kid can play. He got his real chance in Houston and he ran with it. Just secured himself an NBA future somewhere off his play this year I feel..

Morey uses his D-League team very well. You have to look at the roster they have there. They actually won the D-League championship.

Vmart
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6/7/2013  9:12 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Vmart wrote:I don't know how the Knicks will do it but the player that can get the Knicks everything is Monta Ellis. Ellis' game has a lot of Parker in him. He is a high percentage shooter and has a great ability to shoot and penetrate. He is a decent passer too. People kill Ellis for the wrong reasons, he has played on a lot of weak teams.

Yea I said the same things with my sons about looking to get Ellis. He's the kind of guard i'm talking about for sure. We just can't keep going along with Melo as the only real threat and no real speed or scoring from our PG spot. We have to be able to keep the pressure on teams defensively and breakdown guards really make it tough on defenses.

If Ellis shot better from three or took less 3s he would be pretty good option. There is no way the knicks are getting Ellis so no need to discuss it. Ellis needs to take a look at his game and put in some major work in the gym this summer.

I agree, if he can't knock down 3's he's not an option, but i like everything else about ellis game.

The nate rob and thomas comparison is base on the similarities to there game, but i think I.Thomas doesn't lose control like nate. I would give up copeland and novak, for the kings 2nd rounder and I Thomas

Tony Parker doesn't shoot the three to well either. Mid range shooting is a lost art. One thing I like About Ellis is his mid range game and ability to finish. He is very capable of shooting a high percentage also. There was a year he shot 53% for the year so he has an ability to be very efficient. Putting him next to Melo and hopefully Amare will open up clean looks for him to get that FG percentage up and he will also help up Melo's FG % hopefully.

yellowboy90
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6/7/2013  9:31 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Vmart wrote:I don't know how the Knicks will do it but the player that can get the Knicks everything is Monta Ellis. Ellis' game has a lot of Parker in him. He is a high percentage shooter and has a great ability to shoot and penetrate. He is a decent passer too. People kill Ellis for the wrong reasons, he has played on a lot of weak teams.

Yea I said the same things with my sons about looking to get Ellis. He's the kind of guard i'm talking about for sure. We just can't keep going along with Melo as the only real threat and no real speed or scoring from our PG spot. We have to be able to keep the pressure on teams defensively and breakdown guards really make it tough on defenses.

If Ellis shot better from three or took less 3s he would be pretty good option. There is no way the knicks are getting Ellis so no need to discuss it. Ellis needs to take a look at his game and put in some major work in the gym this summer.

I agree, if he can't knock down 3's he's not an option, but i like everything else about ellis game.

The nate rob and thomas comparison is base on the similarities to there game, but i think I.Thomas doesn't lose control like nate. I would give up copeland and novak, for the kings 2nd rounder and I Thomas


A team needs at least one sniper so I would be against sending both Cope and Novak. Also regarding nate I'll look for a post comparing nate to other players someone posted on another board.
yellowboy90
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6/7/2013  9:34 AM
Vmart wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Vmart wrote:I don't know how the Knicks will do it but the player that can get the Knicks everything is Monta Ellis. Ellis' game has a lot of Parker in him. He is a high percentage shooter and has a great ability to shoot and penetrate. He is a decent passer too. People kill Ellis for the wrong reasons, he has played on a lot of weak teams.

Yea I said the same things with my sons about looking to get Ellis. He's the kind of guard i'm talking about for sure. We just can't keep going along with Melo as the only real threat and no real speed or scoring from our PG spot. We have to be able to keep the pressure on teams defensively and breakdown guards really make it tough on defenses.

If Ellis shot better from three or took less 3s he would be pretty good option. There is no way the knicks are getting Ellis so no need to discuss it. Ellis needs to take a look at his game and put in some major work in the gym this summer.

I agree, if he can't knock down 3's he's not an option, but i like everything else about ellis game.

The nate rob and thomas comparison is base on the similarities to there game, but i think I.Thomas doesn't lose control like nate. I would give up copeland and novak, for the kings 2nd rounder and I Thomas

Tony Parker doesn't shoot the three to well either. Mid range shooting is a lost art. One thing I like About Ellis is his mid range game and ability to finish. He is very capable of shooting a high percentage also. There was a year he shot 53% for the year so he has an ability to be very efficient. Putting him next to Melo and hopefully Amare will open up clean looks for him to get that FG percentage up and he will also help up Melo's FG % hopefully.

His mid range game has not looked to pretty recently but it is his horrid 3 pt shooting that is really taking his percentage down. Nate Robinson last two years are as good as Monta.

yellowboy90
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6/7/2013  10:14 AM
http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-morning-news-wednesday-jun-05-2013/#comment-438177


Robinson a poor man’s Ty Lawson? Or was Lawson a poor man’s Robinson last year?

2012-13
Robinson ppp: 1.08
Lawson ppp: 1.05

Robinson assist rate: 31.4
Lawson assist rate: 30.2

Robinson usage: 25.1
Lawson usage: 22.3

2011-12
Robinson assist rate: 31.8
Lawson: 30.2


Not to make it Ty vs Nate debate but those are some interesting numbers. In another post the poster mentioned that Nate's assist rate was also higher than Prigs and Felton. The question is has Nate grown up the past two years or is he playing for a contract.

VCoug
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6/7/2013  10:50 AM
Vmart wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Vmart wrote:I don't know how the Knicks will do it but the player that can get the Knicks everything is Monta Ellis. Ellis' game has a lot of Parker in him. He is a high percentage shooter and has a great ability to shoot and penetrate. He is a decent passer too. People kill Ellis for the wrong reasons, he has played on a lot of weak teams.

Yea I said the same things with my sons about looking to get Ellis. He's the kind of guard i'm talking about for sure. We just can't keep going along with Melo as the only real threat and no real speed or scoring from our PG spot. We have to be able to keep the pressure on teams defensively and breakdown guards really make it tough on defenses.

If Ellis shot better from three or took less 3s he would be pretty good option. There is no way the knicks are getting Ellis so no need to discuss it. Ellis needs to take a look at his game and put in some major work in the gym this summer.

I agree, if he can't knock down 3's he's not an option, but i like everything else about ellis game.

The nate rob and thomas comparison is base on the similarities to there game, but i think I.Thomas doesn't lose control like nate. I would give up copeland and novak, for the kings 2nd rounder and I Thomas

Tony Parker doesn't shoot the three to well either. Mid range shooting is a lost art. One thing I like About Ellis is his mid range game and ability to finish. He is very capable of shooting a high percentage also. There was a year he shot 53% for the year so he has an ability to be very efficient. Putting him next to Melo and hopefully Amare will open up clean looks for him to get that FG percentage up and he will also help up Melo's FG % hopefully.

Those are Monta's shot charts from the past 3 seasons. He definitely isn't a good mid-range shooter.

Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
Bonn1997
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6/7/2013  11:00 AM
NYKBocker wrote:
Finestrg wrote:How 'bout Patrick Beverley? The Lakers drafted this kid a couple of years ago I believe but he never stuck -- went over to Europe, honed his skills, reappears in Houston this year and does a great job for them...People out in Houston wanted to see that kid play over Lin eventually. Can you imagine that, after all the money they paid Lin?? Crazy but I can see where people were coming from a little...That kid Beverley earned it..

Would be a bad fit here. Dude is really a bad orchestrator and has low bball IQ. He does however play like a maniac and that is why he is a fan favorite. He is not a breakdown PG. He tends to drift on his drives to the basket.


I disagree. Low bball IQ? Based on what? He has an excellent assist:to ratio. As far as scoring, he's 46% from 2 point range and 38% from 3 point range. I don't see any evidence of bad decision-making. He has very good defensive ratings too.
nixluva
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6/7/2013  2:04 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
Finestrg wrote:How 'bout Patrick Beverley? The Lakers drafted this kid a couple of years ago I believe but he never stuck -- went over to Europe, honed his skills, reappears in Houston this year and does a great job for them...People out in Houston wanted to see that kid play over Lin eventually. Can you imagine that, after all the money they paid Lin?? Crazy but I can see where people were coming from a little...That kid Beverley earned it..

Would be a bad fit here. Dude is really a bad orchestrator and has low bball IQ. He does however play like a maniac and that is why he is a fan favorite. He is not a breakdown PG. He tends to drift on his drives to the basket.


I disagree. Low bball IQ? Based on what? He has an excellent assist:to ratio. As far as scoring, he's 46% from 2 point range and 38% from 3 point range. I don't see any evidence of bad decision-making. He has very good defensive ratings too.

As long as he's better than Felton in terms of court vision. That's the key. It's not how much they pass as much as it's the ability to actually SEE and MAKE the pass off penetration. Felton can only see 5 ft around him and thus is only good with a PnR. He can't make the pass out to the perimeter once he's penetrating. I'll take any speedy PG that can get in the lane and still make the pass to any point on the court.

Bonn1997
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6/7/2013  2:15 PM
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
Finestrg wrote:How 'bout Patrick Beverley? The Lakers drafted this kid a couple of years ago I believe but he never stuck -- went over to Europe, honed his skills, reappears in Houston this year and does a great job for them...People out in Houston wanted to see that kid play over Lin eventually. Can you imagine that, after all the money they paid Lin?? Crazy but I can see where people were coming from a little...That kid Beverley earned it..

Would be a bad fit here. Dude is really a bad orchestrator and has low bball IQ. He does however play like a maniac and that is why he is a fan favorite. He is not a breakdown PG. He tends to drift on his drives to the basket.


I disagree. Low bball IQ? Based on what? He has an excellent assist:to ratio. As far as scoring, he's 46% from 2 point range and 38% from 3 point range. I don't see any evidence of bad decision-making. He has very good defensive ratings too.

As long as he's better than Felton in terms of court vision. That's the key. It's not how much they pass as much as it's the ability to actually SEE and MAKE the pass off penetration. Felton can only see 5 ft around him and thus is only good with a PnR. He can't make the pass out to the perimeter once he's penetrating. I'll take any speedy PG that can get in the lane and still make the pass to any point on the court.

I'm pretty sure Houston has him locked into a cheap salary (<1 mil) for the next 2 years. I don't see how we'd get him.

NYY1NYK2
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6/7/2013  3:44 PM
Wheres SCOTT MACHADO? didnt we want him last yr?
loweyecue
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6/7/2013  7:39 PM
Finestrg wrote:
nixluva wrote:One thing that really bothered me is that we didn't have a really game changing PG. Speed, Breakdown ability, great jumper, floaters. I want a dynamic scoring PG for this team to take the pressure off the need to always go with either a Melo/JR ISo or a stand still 3. We just didn't get enough from Felton in this regard so it would've helped if we had a PG to come in and give us that punch. It's the kind of effect that Nate had for the Bulls.

I'm hoping for a kid like Erick Green, Shane Larkin or Pierre Jackson type. I'm tired of this team being old and slow at PG. Not being able to get into the teeth of a defense and disrupt what they want to do. The drive and kick game has been missing and really with our 3pt shooting it would make it a priority for our PG's to get into the paint and suck the defense in.

I loved the PG IQ of Kidd and Prigs, but we really needed some raw speed at times. To be honest if I was the GM i'd be trying to get 2 more picks cuz this draft is deep with really solid role players. They're the cheapest way to add talent. A speedy PG, 2 way Swingman and a 2 way Center. No more 1 way players, since we lead the league in that category.

Great post as always, Nix.

Couldn't agree more -- address this PG situation already (gimmie as many break-you-down PGs as you can find -- if we decide to go with 3 PGs again next year, give me 2 additional breakdown points to go along with Ray -- when Ray sits, I want another breakdown PG inserted right away into the mix to keep optimum pressure on the opponent at all times)... And while you're at it, Glen -- address ALL of our needs this offseason, and leave no stone unturned in your search for solutions! The goal should be to field a team next year that's younger, more complete, more dynamic and chock full of viable 2-way players. I'm telling you all, it can be done!!!

I'll take this whole conversation a step further -- I'm all for adding quality cheap talent to the fold....Grunwald really has no choice in my estimation -- we don't have the cap room to add the high-priced household names (or even the middle-of-the-road FAs) -- and even if we did, I'm not convinced that throwing money at marginally better talent is the way to go in the NBA anyway. We've gotten burned on that in the past so many times I can't even count anymore. I say keep it simple and concentrate on adding some young/dynamic league-minimum talent to the mix...I'd definitely explore adding some bargain-bin types -- and there's a slew of these guys out there, I'd say a good 3-5 guys at each position/each area of need: speedy/uptempo PGs; scoring 2s; 2-way athletic wings (good call, I agree totally); scoring forwards; rebounding bigs and a more complete 5-man...It's all out there if we want it. I've talked about specific players ad nauseum over the last week alone... There's a ton of very promising talent out there that's not in the league NOT because they're not good enough, but because there's simply no room for them all! Each team only has 15-man rosters to work with, that's it. And not only that -- there are also PLENTY of very promising players out there that talent evaluators simple miss the boat on year after year imo. And once you get typecast as a player with this weakness or that weakness that isn't 'NBA material' it's very hard to shake that label, no matter how well you play in the DL/overseas, etc. I don't believe in bad labels or stigmatisms -- I believe in keeping and open mind and what my head and my own eyes tell me....We're in the unique position of being a pretty good team yet we're over-the-cap and low on draft picks year after year now. It's pretty hard to go the traditional route of adding talent under these conditions. So what do we do?? Do nothing and roll with the weaknesses or address them by ANY MEANS NECESSARY? You guys know my answer...We will actually have a good 5-6 roster spots open to add players, maybe more. Fill those spots!! Make it happen. As good as Chris Copeland was -- and he was damn good for us -- there's countless other players out there that ARE MUCH BETTER than Copeland that we could add for similar discount money. That's a fact. Guys at every damn postion even. Find 'em & add 'em!!!

Bottom line is I'm gonna be devastated if we go into next season with the same old story -- older players, one-dimensional players and the same shortcomings and if the answer is just "we don't have the cap room and we've been low on draft picks." That stock answer is not acceptable to me...It's BS.. I want all of these weaknesses identified and addressed. If you ask me, the best way to go about doing this is to go the Jeremy Lin/Chris Copeland bargain-bin route. What other alternatives do we have where we could address every weakness on this team all at once?

Example -- I completely agree we need more speed/penetration at the point to go along with Felton. Say we go in a different direction at 24, though, and go big or non-point guard. Then what? Nothing changes. The need is still there! Next step is to get into that 2nd round by any means necessary and grab a guy like Pierre Jackson...And if we can't do that, no problem -- step 3: go get the best undrafted and/or bargain-bin point guard out there and bring him in for SL for evaluation in our system preferably and go from there. For me, 2 quality PG options that fit the mold of what we're talking about here are Michael Loyd Jr. and Curtis Jerrells. And that's just tip of the iceberg...Start there and then systematically go position by position, addressing every weakness in sight. Our Summer league squad should be chock full of promising talent 1-13 -- all guys worthy of making the team. Not our draft pick, maybe one or 2 other promising players and that's it. Take the process super serious this summer!!!

Are you assuming Woodson would play or show any interest in developing young players? If so why?

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
CrushAlot
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6/7/2013  7:58 PM
NYY1NYK2 wrote:Wheres SCOTT MACHADO? didnt we want him last yr?
I think guys on the board wanted him. He didn't make it through the season as an nba player. I believe he was in the d-l for most of the year.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
tj23
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6/8/2013  2:00 AM
Felton is alright but damn if he doesn't get worn out and look slow sometimes. Can't be picky though.
nixluva
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6/8/2013  2:49 AM
tj23 wrote:Felton is alright but damn if he doesn't get worn out and look slow sometimes. Can't be picky though.

No we can indeed be picky. Felton is forcing it, trying to be a penetrating PG. He's so thick and heavy. We need a legit quick PG that is light on his feet and able to run ALL DAY AND NIGHT. This is why Felton tends to gas out. He pushes himself so hard that he goes for droughts during the season and he surely did in the playoffs. It's just not who he is anymore. Maybe when he was younger, but he hasn't been able to sustain that in a few years. Even in his best year under MDA he slowed down.

I want a kid that has the body type to sustain that kind of play. Look at how Tony Parker can still burn guys in the 4th qtr. He's just never tired!!! Westbrook is like that too. There are PG's we can look to add that can bring that to the team.

CrushAlot
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6/8/2013  3:12 AM
NYKBocker wrote:
Finestrg wrote:I wouldn't mind trying to emulate what Morey continually does out in Houston year after year -- he values these bargain-bin types and by doing so, he's come up with a few gems. Briggs has talked about PF/C Greg Smith -- I agree, that kid can play. He got his real chance in Houston and he ran with it. Just secured himself an NBA future somewhere off his play this year I feel..

Morey uses his D-League team very well. You have to look at the roster they have there. They actually won the D-League championship.

Morey positioned himself to get Dwight Howard. He moved players for picks and created cap space. He didn't get D12 but he was able to take advantage of the new cba and sign Lin and Asic to poison pill contracts. He also was able to trade for Harden with his cap space. In regards to the d-l team, nba 'sponsor' teams have no ownership of the players on the team. Nba team can only send 1 or 2 players to the d-l. Morey has been masterful with the rockets. He has little to do with their dl team.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
nixluva
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6/8/2013  3:23 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
Finestrg wrote:I wouldn't mind trying to emulate what Morey continually does out in Houston year after year -- he values these bargain-bin types and by doing so, he's come up with a few gems. Briggs has talked about PF/C Greg Smith -- I agree, that kid can play. He got his real chance in Houston and he ran with it. Just secured himself an NBA future somewhere off his play this year I feel..

Morey uses his D-League team very well. You have to look at the roster they have there. They actually won the D-League championship.

Morey positioned himself to get Dwight Howard. He moved players for picks and created cap space. He didn't get D12 but he was able to take advantage of the new cba and sign Lin and Asic to poison pill contracts. He also was able to trade for Harden with his cap space. In regards to the d-l team, nba 'sponsor' teams have no ownership of the players on the team. Nba team can only send 1 or 2 players to the d-l. Morey has been masterful with the rockets. He has little to do with their dl team.

I agree with you on Morey. Everyone thought he had an awful team on his hands before the start of the season, but as he finished making his moves it all came together and he proved how skilled he was. Now he's still in a great position to continue to build his team. Gotta respect his game. I only wish we could be so efficient and smart with the cap while building the Knicks. Knicks always seem to throw too much cash around and end up stuck.

Gotta get a Breakdown PG!

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