Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:I said other. He's our best player without question. He's an every year all star. His teams are gonna give 50ish wins and playoffs every year. He's also flawed, easy to defend in the halfcourt iso-heavy playoffs and from my point of view not a player who can carry a team in the postseason.

I think this year we saw the upside and downside of packing the roster with old guys. There was time this year when Jason Kidd was the most valuable Knick. Come playoffs you groan everytime he shoots.

Where I am getting at is where to go from here?

For me I think we need to add as many players into the pipeline we can. We have one prospect on the roster and thats Shump. After that what? Cope? Its terrible.

People hate on Tony Douglas, and he didn pan out as a great player or even starter but he's found a nice bench role in the league. We need picks like that. Guys who can come in and play right away. Landry Fields is a good example. Wilson Chandler was a nice low pick w/ upside. David Lee blossomed... we have had the young talent. We just need more of it and a little patience to develop it.

If it was my I would load this roster with as many prospects as I can. Ride out the next two years and re-evaluate. If we are status quo good chance I let Melo/Chandler/Amare/Camby/Kidd/etc just come off the books and reboot. We could afford two max guys (again). Lets pick better next time

I can understand that and it might work out well. If a) Melo ages well, b) Melo is willing to share the ball more, and either c) we attract some great FAs in 2015 or we get extremely lucky with a prospect we select, it could workout great. I'm harsh on Melo but I'm not convinced that that would be a bad idea believe it or not. I think it has a low probability of working though - there are many low probability "if"s.

In contrast, I think you could build a very strong foundation with the assets you get from trading Melo and Chandler and also have lots of cap room in 2015.

A strong foundation built around $100mil in broken glass knees? Really?

Tyson might get moved, but I don't know what you get back in "assets" at this point for him.
I think we should all get comfortable with the idea that we are riding Melo out. It obviously isn't going to be all that long now, as another few seasons playing PF and he should be toast.

Broken glass? You mean Amare? I was assuming he'd be untradeable and we'd just let him expire.

I'd still take these past three seasons over the first half of 2010, and the few seasons before when we were building cap space and gathering "assets".

So would I. I never said the job Dolan/Walsh did pre-Melo is something we should aspire to.

The ONLY benefit I see with have Amare on the roster will be seen during his expiring year. That contract will be quite valuable then.

DurzoBlint wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:I said other. He's our best player without question. He's an every year all star. His teams are gonna give 50ish wins and playoffs every year. He's also flawed, easy to defend in the halfcourt iso-heavy playoffs and from my point of view not a player who can carry a team in the postseason.

I think this year we saw the upside and downside of packing the roster with old guys. There was time this year when Jason Kidd was the most valuable Knick. Come playoffs you groan everytime he shoots.

Where I am getting at is where to go from here?

For me I think we need to add as many players into the pipeline we can. We have one prospect on the roster and thats Shump. After that what? Cope? Its terrible.

People hate on Tony Douglas, and he didn pan out as a great player or even starter but he's found a nice bench role in the league. We need picks like that. Guys who can come in and play right away. Landry Fields is a good example. Wilson Chandler was a nice low pick w/ upside. David Lee blossomed... we have had the young talent. We just need more of it and a little patience to develop it.

If it was my I would load this roster with as many prospects as I can. Ride out the next two years and re-evaluate. If we are status quo good chance I let Melo/Chandler/Amare/Camby/Kidd/etc just come off the books and reboot. We could afford two max guys (again). Lets pick better next time

I can understand that and it might work out well. If a) Melo ages well, b) Melo is willing to share the ball more, and either c) we attract some great FAs in 2015 or we get extremely lucky with a prospect we select, it could workout great. I'm harsh on Melo but I'm not convinced that that would be a bad idea believe it or not. I think it has a low probability of working though - there are many low probability "if"s.

In contrast, I think you could build a very strong foundation with the assets you get from trading Melo and Chandler and also have lots of cap room in 2015.

A strong foundation built around $100mil in broken glass knees? Really?

Tyson might get moved, but I don't know what you get back in "assets" at this point for him.
I think we should all get comfortable with the idea that we are riding Melo out. It obviously isn't going to be all that long now, as another few seasons playing PF and he should be toast.

Broken glass? You mean Amare? I was assuming he'd be untradeable and we'd just let him expire.

I'd still take these past three seasons over the first half of 2010, and the few seasons before when we were building cap space and gathering "assets".

So would I. I never said the job Dolan/Walsh did pre-Melo is something we should aspire to.

The ONLY benefit I see with have Amare on the roster will be seen during his expiring year. That contract will be quite valuable then.

Bonn1997 wrote:

toad wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

toad wrote:Nothing, really. Give Woody a chance to do better with a healthy Tyson, whatever minutes you get out of Amar'e. Hopefully Shump gets better than we even project. Add small pieces. Don't add long contracts to go for a short term fix. See where we're at in a couple of years.

Isn't that option B in my poll?

Is it? I thought it would be pretty clear to everyone that this is not really a contending team as constructed. In order to build around him would necessitate getting more talent before his contract is up, which would probably mean taking on some bad contracts and clearing out what little assets we currently have. I'm more and more inclined to not "build around" Melo. Let the contracts run out and see what we have.

I guess I misunderstood. Are you saying you'd let all the contracts including Melo's run out? I guess that would give us more time to see what to do and we could then either keep Melo or do an S & T and get something back for him.

He has an opt out after next season, right? I think it's really up to him. There's no way we're going to be able to maneuver this offseason to get players that are going to make us significantly better. And I hope they don't trade away Shump or even Tyson from some risky proposition in order to keep Melo happy. So, we play out next season, and hopefully Amar'e doesn't completely breakdown and he has an expiring contract along with others. We'll see how Shump progresses. We'll see if Woodson is the coach we want. See what Melo is thinking. I'm just saying we don't have to make a decision about Melo until after next season. A lot can happen by then, and at least there's some maneuverability.

fishmike wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I voted 'other'. I want the Knicks to keep him and have him be one of the major components to the team. I always thought Melo/Amare would eventually work because the would be able to alternate high/low post on opposite sides of the court. If the knicks can find another forward that can play in both posts I think things will work out but that's easier said than done

somebody mentioned a trade where we send Chandler off in a three way and get Okafor and Bledoe back. I think that kind of move could be big. A lateral move that perhaps has pieces that better fit together.

I agree that would be huge for us. Bledsoe and shumpert would be a nice supporting cast for Melo.

DurzoBlint wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:I said other. He's our best player without question. He's an every year all star. His teams are gonna give 50ish wins and playoffs every year. He's also flawed, easy to defend in the halfcourt iso-heavy playoffs and from my point of view not a player who can carry a team in the postseason.

I think this year we saw the upside and downside of packing the roster with old guys. There was time this year when Jason Kidd was the most valuable Knick. Come playoffs you groan everytime he shoots.

Where I am getting at is where to go from here?

For me I think we need to add as many players into the pipeline we can. We have one prospect on the roster and thats Shump. After that what? Cope? Its terrible.

People hate on Tony Douglas, and he didn pan out as a great player or even starter but he's found a nice bench role in the league. We need picks like that. Guys who can come in and play right away. Landry Fields is a good example. Wilson Chandler was a nice low pick w/ upside. David Lee blossomed... we have had the young talent. We just need more of it and a little patience to develop it.

If it was my I would load this roster with as many prospects as I can. Ride out the next two years and re-evaluate. If we are status quo good chance I let Melo/Chandler/Amare/Camby/Kidd/etc just come off the books and reboot. We could afford two max guys (again). Lets pick better next time

I can understand that and it might work out well. If a) Melo ages well, b) Melo is willing to share the ball more, and either c) we attract some great FAs in 2015 or we get extremely lucky with a prospect we select, it could workout great. I'm harsh on Melo but I'm not convinced that that would be a bad idea believe it or not. I think it has a low probability of working though - there are many low probability "if"s.

In contrast, I think you could build a very strong foundation with the assets you get from trading Melo and Chandler and also have lots of cap room in 2015.

A strong foundation built around $100mil in broken glass knees? Really?

Tyson might get moved, but I don't know what you get back in "assets" at this point for him.
I think we should all get comfortable with the idea that we are riding Melo out. It obviously isn't going to be all that long now, as another few seasons playing PF and he should be toast.

Broken glass? You mean Amare? I was assuming he'd be untradeable and we'd just let him expire.

I'd still take these past three seasons over the first half of 2010, and the few seasons before when we were building cap space and gathering "assets".

So would I. I never said the job Dolan/Walsh did pre-Melo is something we should aspire to.

The ONLY benefit I see with have Amare on the roster will be seen during his expiring year. That contract will be quite valuable then.

I'm not sure about that. It will be valuable only if we're willing to take back a longer contract that some team wants to dump. And that would also mean sacrificing cap space during free agency.

not necessarily. Teams have on multiple occasions traded good players for huge expiring contracts. If the team with them isn't going anywhere and wants to rebuild, such contract are valuable.

If Melo doesn't remove his opt out clause in 2014, I think we are better of trading him this summer while he still has good value in the league
Otherwise, Melo will have leverage over the management by signing with another team while we get NOTHING in return and continue to pay for the trade till 2016
or
having Melo demanding a long term commitment that will not allow us to add the players needed to contend while he is here
He is NOT worth a salary of 20m+ or anything near that amount when he hits 30, as it would limit our financial flexibility

While he could opt out and take less money, which I don't see happening from his track record, that is another way in which we can get under the luxury tax but it would come out of Melo's pocket

We simply cannot expect Melo to go 1v1 as the 4 other players stand and watch, it does not work vs contenders
Woodson will continue to give Melo and JR the freedom to be heroes rather than complete basketball players, it simply is not efficient
Are we trying to develop super heroes or basketball players and build a team?

Tyson, Amare, Shump, have all shared their opinion on it, as they played in Dantoni's system and Woodson's lack of, and they have shown displeasure with it
They have every right to be as well, either make a move or pass the ball, and move without the ball/give effort on other things besides scoring with a TEAM CONCEPT
It would help if Grunwald would add another COACH for more input just like Woodson was used for Dantoni
Paying a high salary for an top assistant coach while he know's he would get the opportunity to take over if Woodson continues to lose his team

If we are going to lose, lose as a team, but play as a TEAM
Don't settle for scoring 30 points when it takes you 29 attempts
MOST players must pick a position to be able to defend 1v1 and continue to work/build on it, this HELPING BS does not work, with his flawed philosophy
No one is held accountable and the finger start's pointing like it did vs the Pacer's as we were unable to stop them from good looks

but he was here first.

and the fact that melo has the same exact issue-- he makes nobody around him better-- seems to have gone right over the heads of so many parties concerned with the knicks, be they the clueless owner, carmelo anthony himself, and a majority of the fanbase.

you cannot build a winner with two players who don't make others around them better. it does not matter how hard you try to put the right pieces around melo or stoudemire or both.

best thing is to trade carmelo anthony while he still has some credibility even though he is a career-long loser. he can find a nice secondary role on a team with a genuine superstar or be a valuable 6th man. if he can latch on to a true contender he may even make it to the basketball hall of fame the second year he is eligible.

I don't know what hell is the meaning of What should we do with Melo. I should say what should we do to help Melo. Every damn thread is bash Melo time. Damn can't we talk about something else. This is getting sick. Just like the two sicko brothers. which one I have on ignore. The best year we had in 13 years and you still complain. Now about winning it all aka a championship. You have 12 other good teams thinking the same thing but there can only be one winner. So does the rest of the league suck? I believe that half of the people on this forum only care about is how you play the game and not winning the game. I bet no one on this forum would be willing to give up a raise in pay just to bring in someone else on your work team. Hell No! give me mine. Now you say regular season don't count and what Melo did then dosent mean a thing. Let me tell you something every game is an important game.

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

I don't know what hell is the meaning of What should we do with Melo. I should say what should we do to help Melo. Every damn thread is bash Melo time. Damn can't we talk about something else. This is getting sick. Just like the two sicko brothers. which one I have on ignore. The best year we had in 13 years and you still complain. Now about winning it all aka a championship. You have 12 other good teams thinking the same thing but there can only be one winner. So does the rest of the league suck? I believe that half of the people on this forum only care about is how you play the game and not winning the game. I bet no one on this forum would be willing to give up a raise in pay just to bring in someone else on your work team. Hell No! give me mine. Now you say regular season don't count and what Melo did then dosent mean a thing. Let me tell you something every game is an important game.

"The Knicks still have to find some accommodating group of guys that know how to play ball together, move the ball and play the game the right way," he said.

it's not just people on this board that are sick and tired of melo playing like he's in the streets..

knicks1248 wrote:

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

I don't know what hell is the meaning of What should we do with Melo. I should say what should we do to help Melo. Every damn thread is bash Melo time. Damn can't we talk about something else. This is getting sick. Just like the two sicko brothers. which one I have on ignore. The best year we had in 13 years and you still complain. Now about winning it all aka a championship. You have 12 other good teams thinking the same thing but there can only be one winner. So does the rest of the league suck? I believe that half of the people on this forum only care about is how you play the game and not winning the game. I bet no one on this forum would be willing to give up a raise in pay just to bring in someone else on your work team. Hell No! give me mine. Now you say regular season don't count and what Melo did then dosent mean a thing. Let me tell you something every game is an important game.

Perhaps with his 29th birthday celebration this week, Carmelo Anthony should treat himself to Phil Jackson's book, "Sacred Hoops."

That's what Jackson hopes Melo, whom he called a "terrific player," purchases to learn what it takes to become an NBA champion.

"He's one step away from getting there and having that opportunity," Jackson said on Thursday during an interview on Bloomberg Radio's "Taking Stock" with Pimm Fox and Carol Massar. "Having had [a championship] as an NCAA player, it's something he must crave."

In "Sacred Hoops," Jackson describes coaching the greatest player ever, who also needed some motivation from the "Zen Master" himself.

"It's a book in which I address the fact that Michael Jordan's a leading scorer, he's got the capability of being a terrific scorer," Jackson said, "but that he's got to get his other teammates involved and he's got to make it a team game."

"Sacred Hoops" was published in 1995, two years after the Bulls won three straight titles. Jackson has written several other books, including "Maverick: More Than a Game," "The Last Season: A Team in Search of Its Soul" and "Eleven Rings: The Soul of Success," which was released earlier this month. During his legendary coaching career, Jackson was known to give his players books to read for teaching and inspiration.

Recently, in an interview with The New York Times, Jackson also took a jab at the Knicks, saying they're still missing championship pieces.

"The Knicks still have to find some accommodating group of guys that know how to play ball together, move the ball and play the game the right way," he said.

it's not just people on this board that are sick and tired of melo playing like he's in the streets..

the main issue is playing ball the right way. i have been saying this all along. melo doesn't know how to. trade this chump.