nixluva wrote:

JamesKPolk wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:I thought you said Woodson was running D'Antoni's system.

If isolation is D'Antoni's system then people don't know basketball.

AnubisADL and CrushAlot are of course remembering that I did point out when Woody was running a lot of MDA's style BB early in the season and I might add that that style of play was when this team was most successful this year. Of course he didn't really run MDA's system in full as it's got over a 100 plays and multiple variations of those same plays and none of them are ISO plays. Any ISO that happens comes as a matter of last resort as it should since it's some of the least efficient BB there is.

Shump was making the point that when they got into the ISO stuff everything stopped. This is pretty much what Karl and MDA were not happy with but what Woody went out of his way to put back in after MDA left. Basically those "ME" plays are to make Melo and JR happy. NO ONE else on the team really wants to play that way. The main reason is what the hell are the rest of the players supposed to do while Melo or JR hold the ball for 10-15 seconds before they actually decide to make a move? Sure they can score like that and it all seems good when they do, but in the end you can't win that way. By that I mean win in the Playoffs.

Also just so we get it straight, going one on one is not the same as ISO Ball. You can have a player take his man off the dribble or a post up and have that be part of the flow of the offense. That's not what we're complaining about when it comes to Melo or JR. ISO Ball is much more exaggerated one on one. The ball stops, all player movement stops and his teammates move away if possible to not get in his way. Usually when it's done by Melo or JR it comes at the expense of breaking the play. It's not part of the flow of the offense. There are times at the end of a qtr when you call a clearout, which is fine, but that's not what we're talking about or what Shump, Prigs or Tyson was complaining about. If you watch how teams like SA, MIA, MEM and GS play it's all about ball and player movement and the ball not sticking. They play TEAM BALL, which is really all we're asking for.

+1

Well said.

y2zipper wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:Woodyball is NOT the problem.

Wooodyball just hides the fact we have mediocre PG play from Felton, suspect perimeter defense, and no offense in the post.

The Knicks are a jump shooting team. The person who is the best jump shooter is Melo.

Woodson is about getting RESULTS. He isn't committed to a particular style of play on the offensive end.

I agree with this. Every team in the NBA basically runs the same offense. It's all pick & roll, post-up and isolation. The point is to get a player who can win a 1-on-1 opportunity into a high-percentage shot and spread the floor to punish the double-team and stress the defensive rotations. Teams like the Heat and Spurs use exactly the same offense, but it doesn't work without a big like Duncan/Bosh who can shoot from the perimeter.

The Spurs and Heat don't run the "exactly the same offense". There are similar aspects that they've both adopted which are variations on MDA's style of offense, which pulls the defense out away from the paint and leaves that part of the floor open for attack. This also leaves shooters open for drive and kick 3pt'ers.

The fact that all teams run a PnR at times doesn't mean they all run the same offense. I don't want to get into the details of every teams offense, but there are REAL differences in how each team plays. The Knicks offense is NOTHING like the Pacers offense. The Bucks don't play ANYTHING like the Spurs. Memphis doesn't play anything like the Knicks. Personnel makes a huge difference. Some coaches aren't comfortable with complex offenses and thus they allow more freelance or give more freedom to their guards if they have guards that are good breakdown players.

In any event Your description of the Heat and Spurs using the same offense is actually an oversimplification. YES both teams have made the switch to an MDA style offense in the last few years, meaning they Purposely spread the floor and leave the middle open for attack. They pick up the pace so that they get easy early baskets, but the Heat are a bit different from the Spurs, if the defense is back they get into their spread sets and will flash players into the open space in the paint rather than go with strict post ups. The Spurs are a bit different cuz they can post up with their bigs and do, but they also make use of the spread offense and take tons of 3's and will use their bigs to come out of the post and screen at the elbow to get their Guards space to attack the paint. That is not the same way that every other team tries to score.

The problem is that the Knicks have their 2 best scorers breaking the offense because they both prefer to hold the ball and go ISO. The % of plays where this happens is higher than the Heat or Spurs and unfortunately it got even higher in the playoffs and that was a downfall of the Knicks in the playoffs. This is why Woody gets criticized. He didn't enforce more discipline from his players and make sure they kept playing with ball and player movement, pace and spacing the floor.

misterearl wrote:what he said

“Certain guys that we depended on, they just didn’t get it done.” - Mike Woodson

Roy Hibbert dominated Tyson Chandler on both ends. Plain and simple.

Do you know anything about Ben Jobe?

nixluva - when did Mike D'Antoni become the author of ANY offensive strategy or tactic?

Please cite evidence and dates.

Pacers coach Frank Vogel spent most of Thursday under heavy fire from critics for his performance in Game 1 of the Eastern Conference Finals.

But Vogel also doled out some criticism of his own on Thursday.

And he pointed it directly at Knicks coach Mike Woodson.

While praising the Miami Heat's offensive approach against Indiana center Roy Hibbert in Game 1 of the conference finals, Vogel took a shot at Woodson.

"They had a more intelligent plan against Roy Hibbert than New York did and we've got to adjust to it," Vogel told reporters with the Pacers in Miami. "It was effective [Wednesday night] and we've got to adjust to it."

It's unclear if Vogel meant it as a direct criticism of Woodson, but it's hard to misinterpret his words: he was ripping the Knicks' offensive scheme against Hibbert.

The Knicks allowed Hibbert to camp out in the paint on defense in their second-round series. In doing so, Hibbert made life difficult for the Knicks at the rim and was able to help the Pacers control the boards (Indiana outrebounded New York by 10.4 rebounds per game).

Woodson at times drew Hibbert from the paint by placing shooters such as Chris Copeland on the floor, but he did not use that strategy often.

The Heat, on the other hand, forced Hibbert to leave the paint at times in Game 1. That strategy helped Miami outscore Indiana, 60-48, in the paint and coral 16 offensive rebounds.

Vogel, in fact, decided to leave Hibbert on the bench on the Heat's final play because he feared Hibbert would not be able to leave the paint to defend a Chris Bosh jump shot.

That theory backfired as LeBron James drove past Paul George for an uncontested game-winning layup in overtime.

Many questioned why Hibbert wasn't on the floor to defend the rim.

"I would say we would probably have him in next time," Vogel told reporters after Game 1.

Vogel wasn't the only observer to critique Woodson's coaching performance against the Pacers.

Woodson also took criticism for failing to play Copeland until the final two games of the series. Woodson also went with a bigger starting lineup in Game 4 of the series; the move backfired, as the Knicks lost by 11 and were crushed on the boards.

"I really haven't heard the criticism because I don't read it that much," Woodson said on Monday. "I'm my own biggest critic."

That may be true. But on Thursday, that title belonged to Vogel.

I'm telling you woodson can be such a loser when it comes to the playoffs.. We would have been toast had rondo played in the first round.

Most of the media had us winning in 5 or 6 games against Indi..Some of our losses this post season where just completely baffling..

I guess their right when they said Indi had the better team, We just had the better players that were running as a team, we made horrible adjustments, no plan on offense, and we made boston look like defensive monsters...

You think woodson he is going to change, you think he is going to get better players and change his approach to the playoffs, his game planing..smh

because mda was very close to the True Way to Play--- the absolute that is outside of us, an ideal way to play that the mind will reason out with eyes closed and in a vacuum,

knicks1248 wrote:

misterearl wrote:what he said

“Certain guys that we depended on, they just didn’t get it done.” - Mike Woodson

Roy Hibbert dominated Tyson Chandler on both ends. Plain and simple.

Do you know anything about Ben Jobe?

nixluva - when did Mike D'Antoni become the author of ANY offensive strategy or tactic?

Please cite evidence and dates.

Pacers coach Frank Vogel spent most of Thursday under heavy fire from critics for his performance in Game 1 of the Eastern Conference Finals.

But Vogel also doled out some criticism of his own on Thursday.

And he pointed it directly at Knicks coach Mike Woodson.

While praising the Miami Heat's offensive approach against Indiana center Roy Hibbert in Game 1 of the conference finals, Vogel took a shot at Woodson.

"They had a more intelligent plan against Roy Hibbert than New York did and we've got to adjust to it," Vogel told reporters with the Pacers in Miami. "It was effective [Wednesday night] and we've got to adjust to it."

It's unclear if Vogel meant it as a direct criticism of Woodson, but it's hard to misinterpret his words: he was ripping the Knicks' offensive scheme against Hibbert.

The Knicks allowed Hibbert to camp out in the paint on defense in their second-round series. In doing so, Hibbert made life difficult for the Knicks at the rim and was able to help the Pacers control the boards (Indiana outrebounded New York by 10.4 rebounds per game).

Woodson at times drew Hibbert from the paint by placing shooters such as Chris Copeland on the floor, but he did not use that strategy often.

The Heat, on the other hand, forced Hibbert to leave the paint at times in Game 1. That strategy helped Miami outscore Indiana, 60-48, in the paint and coral 16 offensive rebounds.

Vogel, in fact, decided to leave Hibbert on the bench on the Heat's final play because he feared Hibbert would not be able to leave the paint to defend a Chris Bosh jump shot.

That theory backfired as LeBron James drove past Paul George for an uncontested game-winning layup in overtime.

Many questioned why Hibbert wasn't on the floor to defend the rim.

"I would say we would probably have him in next time," Vogel told reporters after Game 1.

Vogel wasn't the only observer to critique Woodson's coaching performance against the Pacers.

Woodson also took criticism for failing to play Copeland until the final two games of the series. Woodson also went with a bigger starting lineup in Game 4 of the series; the move backfired, as the Knicks lost by 11 and were crushed on the boards.

"I really haven't heard the criticism because I don't read it that much," Woodson said on Monday. "I'm my own biggest critic."

That may be true. But on Thursday, that title belonged to Vogel.

I'm telling you woodson can be such a loser when it comes to the playoffs.. We would have been toast had rondo played in the first round.

Most of the media had us winning in 5 or 6 games against Indi..Some of our losses this post season where just completely baffling..

I guess their right when they said Indi had the better team, We just had the better players that were running as a team, we made horrible adjustments, no plan on offense, and we made boston look like defensive monsters...

You think woodson he is going to change, you think he is going to get better players and change his approach to the playoffs, his game planing..smh

I thought most of the media was pro pacers. I may have listened to more analysis as the series went on but I know that before game 5 I couldn't find a pro knick perspective in espn. as far as adjustments go, I think it was more Tyson being injured, Kidd aging rapidly, melo having a torn and dislocated shoulder, something being up with jr etc. The adjustment I keep hearing suggest is playing cope more. I get that but cope definitely had a tough time in the Boston series and is the 8th or 9th man in the rotation. Woodson was going with the guys that got the Knicks there. My big complaint about Woodson would be game 4 where he switched the line up.

Besides I'm talking about woody and his playoff preparation..his only won 2 series out of 6 as a head coach, winning his division 5 times..

Why some of you fault MDA for not taking a rebuilding knick squad anywhere, then you call out the weak ass players he had like, curry, al, duhon, bill walker, JJ, shanwe williams, jorts, TD..

I would like to know what coach on the planet is bringing a team like that to the playoffs..