TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

VCoug wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

VCoug wrote:

joec32033 wrote:It's not a Cowherd problem. It's a media problem.

I listen to Cowherd and I like him. A lot of his arguments are based on most basic denominator type stuff. He is HUGE into college and at the beginning of the year he was high on Melo and how he changed.

Thing is, I listen to SAS and Ryan Rucco (SP?) too. On Wed.'s show they were talking about the Heat win. And Melo's play was brought up. They gave him credit for the play but then criticized HOW he got his points. None were in the paint. None were in the post. They were all jumpshots. Crap like that.

Now I remember Lebron's streak and I didn't hear one criticism of HOW he got his points, or where on the floor his points came from. He got credit for scoring 30 while shooting over whatever percentage for 3 or 4 games. Melo has done the EXACT same thing or better and is criticized for HOW he got his points.

Melo is just a magnet for criticism, just like Ewing was. Playing in NY while not actually being THE BEST player in the NBA invites micro analyzing of everything instead of just enjoying the big picture. He isn't being criticized for being Carmelo Anthony, he is being criticized for NOT being Lebron James.

That doesn't make any sense. If someone's criticizing Melo for taking too many jump shots and not driving or posting enough why would you expect them to turn around and criticize Lebron for taking fewer jump shots and scoring more in the paint?

Why even delve into how hes getting his points in the first place?

Because it's not just one night you have to worry about, it's being able to do it night in and night out.

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2546

That's a shot chart of Melo's season so far. It gives the total amount of shots from different spots on the floor, the %, and how it compares to the rest of the league (green is above average fg%, yellow is average, and red is below average). While he is doing a great job on long jumpers compared to the rest of the league he's still only shooting in the mid- to low- 40% for those spots except for straight away 2's but he's only taken 21 of those on the entire season. If he steps in only a few more feet his shooting % jumps up to over 50%.

Now compare his shot chart to Lebron James' http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2544&display-mode=performance and Kevin Durant's http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=201142&display-mode=performance. If you look, all three of them have 7 hot zones but their shot distribution tells an interesting story. Lebron takes nearly half his shots at the rim where he's shooting over 70% and the rest of his shots are distributed pretty evenly. Durant's shots are concentrated in his green zones; other than the area around the FT line all his yellow and red zones have the fewest shot attempts. Melo's shot distribution is almost completely even though he's clearly much, much better shooting from the right side instead of the left.

If we're talking from the perspective that we're expecting him to keep this up and possibly want to find a way where he can or at least come close then I definitely see your point. I was more addressing the analysts' double standards. However, there are plenty of factors that go into this chart that doesnt tell the whole story. Melos a shooter and Lebron isnt. Then you have to think about the amount of times Melos gotten whacked at the rim with no call and other such factors. But I think you're a lot more rational than the ESPN analysts.

well you can't criticise the numbers per se so what's left is their interpretation. you are accusing analysts of collective bias and if so why?

Im criticizing the way they use them. I just always felt like ESPN in particular could never look at the Knicks objectively. Like they still want them to be that joke they were under Isiah. Its just my personal opinion though. Thats why I try to avoid talking about analysts cause my bias shines through my posts.

apropos i will remind you that lebron went to hakeem for instruction and that he and wade agreed they wanted to focus on being as efficient as possible at scoring.

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

VCoug wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

VCoug wrote:

joec32033 wrote:It's not a Cowherd problem. It's a media problem.

I listen to Cowherd and I like him. A lot of his arguments are based on most basic denominator type stuff. He is HUGE into college and at the beginning of the year he was high on Melo and how he changed.

Thing is, I listen to SAS and Ryan Rucco (SP?) too. On Wed.'s show they were talking about the Heat win. And Melo's play was brought up. They gave him credit for the play but then criticized HOW he got his points. None were in the paint. None were in the post. They were all jumpshots. Crap like that.

Now I remember Lebron's streak and I didn't hear one criticism of HOW he got his points, or where on the floor his points came from. He got credit for scoring 30 while shooting over whatever percentage for 3 or 4 games. Melo has done the EXACT same thing or better and is criticized for HOW he got his points.

Melo is just a magnet for criticism, just like Ewing was. Playing in NY while not actually being THE BEST player in the NBA invites micro analyzing of everything instead of just enjoying the big picture. He isn't being criticized for being Carmelo Anthony, he is being criticized for NOT being Lebron James.

That doesn't make any sense. If someone's criticizing Melo for taking too many jump shots and not driving or posting enough why would you expect them to turn around and criticize Lebron for taking fewer jump shots and scoring more in the paint?

Why even delve into how hes getting his points in the first place?

Because it's not just one night you have to worry about, it's being able to do it night in and night out.

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2546

That's a shot chart of Melo's season so far. It gives the total amount of shots from different spots on the floor, the %, and how it compares to the rest of the league (green is above average fg%, yellow is average, and red is below average). While he is doing a great job on long jumpers compared to the rest of the league he's still only shooting in the mid- to low- 40% for those spots except for straight away 2's but he's only taken 21 of those on the entire season. If he steps in only a few more feet his shooting % jumps up to over 50%.

Now compare his shot chart to Lebron James' http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2544&display-mode=performance and Kevin Durant's http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=201142&display-mode=performance. If you look, all three of them have 7 hot zones but their shot distribution tells an interesting story. Lebron takes nearly half his shots at the rim where he's shooting over 70% and the rest of his shots are distributed pretty evenly. Durant's shots are concentrated in his green zones; other than the area around the FT line all his yellow and red zones have the fewest shot attempts. Melo's shot distribution is almost completely even though he's clearly much, much better shooting from the right side instead of the left.

If we're talking from the perspective that we're expecting him to keep this up and possibly want to find a way where he can or at least come close then I definitely see your point. I was more addressing the analysts' double standards. However, there are plenty of factors that go into this chart that doesnt tell the whole story. Melos a shooter and Lebron isnt. Then you have to think about the amount of times Melos gotten whacked at the rim with no call and other such factors. But I think you're a lot more rational than the ESPN analysts.

well you can't criticise the numbers per se so what's left is their interpretation. you are accusing analysts of collective bias and if so why?

Im criticizing the way they use them. I just always felt like ESPN in particular could never look at the Knicks objectively. Like they still want them to be that joke they were under Isiah. Its just my personal opinion though. Thats why I try to avoid talking about analysts cause my bias shines through my posts.

apropos i will remind you that lebron went to hakeem for instruction and that he and wade agreed they wanted to focus on being as efficient as possible at scoring.

dk7th wrote:here's what i have been looking at this season:

lebron james 63.7TS% Usage 30.3 and Assist rate (% of assists made while he is on the floor) is 36% for a ratio of .84:1 which is what scoring point guards usually get. incredibly efficient and facilitating.

kevin durant 64.4TS% 30.0 and 20.8 for a ratio of 1.44 which, again, is incredibly efficient and facilitating.

carmelo anthony 56.0TS% 35.2 and 14.1 for a ratio of 2.50. mediocre or average efficiency and leaves a lot to be desired in terms of facilitating.

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:here's what i have been looking at this season:

lebron james 63.7TS% Usage 30.3 and Assist rate (% of assists made while he is on the floor) is 36% for a ratio of .84:1 which is what scoring point guards usually get. incredibly efficient and facilitating.

kevin durant 64.4TS% 30.0 and 20.8 for a ratio of 1.44 which, again, is incredibly efficient and facilitating.

carmelo anthony 56.0TS% 35.2 and 14.1 for a ratio of 2.50. mediocre or average efficiency and leaves a lot to be desired in terms of facilitating.

Not a huge fan of advanced stats and all that (thats why im not stat savvy) but we know Melos not Lebron. Lebron can do it all and Melo cant. With that said, I think Melo done pretty good in terms of passing this season. He set up Amare more than anyone on the team and hes been making the extra pass around the perimeter and out of double teams. I think hes doing ok.

he has done better lately at passing. he does pass the eye test there and the stats back this up-- the advanced stats. when he isn't playing well his ratio is an astronomical 3.0:1 or higher. when he gets the ratio down to 2.5:1 or lower then the team enjoys success most of the time.

the formula is:

1)melo TS% at 58 or higher with a ratio of 2.5:1 or lower; staying out of foul trouble
2)felton shooting no more than 10-11 times a game
3)smith getting to the line 2x times more than the number of threes he shoots
4)DEFENSE

the knicks do this they can beat anybody.

joec32033 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:because FTs and drives are where you want them to come from. They're the highest percentage opportunities.

So you don't want someone to shoot well from the field?

dk7th wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:because FTs and drives are where you want them to come from. They're the highest percentage opportunities.

So you don't want someone to shoot well from the field?

I never said that. I'm not sure if you're just trying to be difficult. You should be smart enough to understand that perimeter shots are lower percentage and not the kind you want the player taking a ton of, even if he's having a hot week.
(That applies more to the 50 point game. Obviously today Melo attacked the basket great.)

Difficult? Really?

Putting that aside, while I agree, I am not arguing if a player is doing well. Carmelo gets his ass kicked. Look at the stats. In his 50 point game he shot 8 foul shots. In his 40 point game, he shot six. In his 41 point game he shot 4 (while grabbing 14 rebounds, 5 offensive). Today-the game you just said he did a much better job of driving the to the hole-he had 36, had 4 free throws and didn't take his first free throws until 30 seconds were left in the fourth.

Now I ask in a game where he had 5 offensive boards and 41 points (last game) and a game where he had 36 and drove the lane better-by your account- he has a combined 8 free throw attempts. And once again, he didn't take his first free throws against the Thunder until 30 seconds left in the game.

The question is is it really an easier shot if you are driving, getting hit, and not getting the free throws or is it easier to hit from midrange with less interference?

Correction- Carmelo didn't take his first free throws until 30 seconds were left in the game.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=400278865&period=4

maybe you're wrong about him getting his ass kicked. he plays an aggressive style of ball without a whole lot of ball and head fakes. much of the contact he receives on drives is initiated by him in the first place and not the defender. it also doesn't help that he is wearing a lot of stuff around his belly and rib cage... and arms. refs factor all of this in and since they are 4 feet away they are in the best position to make no-calls.

Everything you just said can apply to just about every player in the league. Going back to Lebron, he doesn't initiate contact driving to the basket?

And did you just really say that it is ok that the refs decide whether to make foul calls based on the protective equipment worn by players? Wade wears....check out this article from 2009

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/sports/basketball/26pads.html?_r=0

By JONATHAN ABRAMS
Published: April 25, 2009

These days, basketball players are prepared to take a fall.

Many N.B.A. and college players wear thigh pads and chest pads beneath their loose-fitting uniforms, and their numbers have steadily risen. The quaint sport that Dr. James Naismith introduced to pass time in the winter has evolved into a full-contact sport requiring full-time protection.

“In the paint, basketball is very physical,” the Orlando Magic’s Dwight Howard said. “You’ve got elbows flying, bodies flying, crashing, people fighting for position. I don’t think people see all of that. That’s why a lot of people have been wearing those.”

He pointed to his teammate Mickael Pietrus, who was sliding into a flak jacket before a recent game.

The padding pioneer was Shaquille O’Neal, whose 7-foot-1, 315-pound frame provides ample room for bumps and bruises. O’Neal had worn girdlelike protection for a while, but five seasons ago when he joined the Miami Heat, he consulted with Ron Culp, then the team’s longtime trainer, on how to best nurse a bruised rib while continuing to play.

“When I came in, people thought the best way to stop me was to be physical,” said O’Neal, an 18-year veteran. “It didn’t really hurt. The little knickknack bruises started to add up.”

Culp considered having O’Neal wear a bulletproof vest, but it restricted movement and weighed too much. Culp then approached Kevin O’Neill, the Miami Dolphins’ head trainer.

O’Neal may stand taller, but he weighs about the same as many football players. And after witnessing the contact O’Neal absorbed, Culp said, it was only natural to consult a football team about protection.

“Basketball is the most physical noncontact sport in the world,” Culp said. “There’s a conundrum. You’re putting 10 oversized people in an undersized place and telling them to run as fast as they can and jump as high as they can and to not get hurt while doing it.”

Soon, the Heat’s Dwyane Wade started wearing the padding because he “bounces off of people like he is on a pool table,” Culp said.

O’Neal, now with Phoenix, said, “I’m a trendsetter, baby.”

LeBron James, Kobe Bryant and Amar’e Stoudemire are also among those who don padding during games.

The game’s most dynamic players, those who draw the most attention and absorb the most contact, are regular users.

The extra cushioning provided by padded compression shorts and a tight-fitting padded V-neck undershirt goes mostly unnoticed.

But players are convinced that these special undergarments can prevent injury.

“It works,” Philadelphia 76ers forward Thaddeus Young said as he held a protective shirt. “It depends where you get hit at. You want to protect some of the things in your body, and I’ve gotten elbowed a couple times in my ribs and they tend to be hurting for a while.

“This gives me a little more peace of mind.”

Because of O’Neal and others, McDavid, a manufacturer of protective sports equipment based in Illinois, modified its N.F.L. gear for basketball use. Its HexPad technology involves forming foam composites into hundreds of lightweight hexagonal pads that are bonded into fabric. Unlike most football pads, they do not have to be removed for washing.

The N.B.A. is happy as long as no one sees the extra padding.

“Whether they’re wearing padded or nonpadded compression gear, they can’t be visible while they’re at a standstill, and the compression tanks can’t be visible under the jersey as well,” said Stu Jackson, the league’s executive vice president for basketball operations.

“The compression items that are issued by the team are from our apparel partner, which is Adidas. They’re cut in a way that are not visible, so if a player chooses to wear another compression item, it must be so it’s not visible.”

But that makes it tougher to market to younger players.

“That’s the hard part of the product, that nobody sees it,” said Rey Corpuz, McDavid’s marketing director, who estimated that basketball padding for all ages could become a $15 million to $20 million business for his company. “It’s designed specifically not to be seen at the N.B.A. level.”

Other companies, including Nike and Under Armour, have also developed protective padding for basketball players.

“We really see this as the new modern-day uniform system,” said Todd Van Horne, a Nike creative director. “You’re not just using the jersey that’s wearing the number on the outside. The players are bigger, they’re stronger. They’re more competitive.”

So are the companies that have entered this burgeoning apparel category. McDavid sued Nike and later Adidas, citing patent infringement, and is seeking to have them cease manufacturing padded undergarments. Neither lawsuit has not been resolved.

Derek Kent, a Nike spokesman, said that the lawsuit lacked factual merit and that Nike filed for its own patent nearly two years ago.

“As an innovation-orientated company for athletes during the last 36 years,” Kent said, “Nike believes that athletes can decide which products provide the greatest performance advantage and that both should be allowed to compete in the marketplace unchanged.”

The popularity of the padded garments for basketball has been a coup for McDavid.

“If you go back into the ’70s, guys are wearing knee pads,” Corpuz said. “Padding isn’t outside of the culture. Our biggest challenge was changing the mind-set of the average basketball player that padding was already there.”

Still, some players bristle at wearing body pads, fearing that they may restrict movement or questioning the need for them in the first place.

“Those guys who use them bang a lot,” the veteran Nets guard Keyon Dooling said. “They get the ball a lot more than me. Over the years, I’ve learned how to avoid being hit by the big guys.”

joec32033 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:because FTs and drives are where you want them to come from. They're the highest percentage opportunities.

So you don't want someone to shoot well from the field?

I never said that. I'm not sure if you're just trying to be difficult. You should be smart enough to understand that perimeter shots are lower percentage and not the kind you want the player taking a ton of, even if he's having a hot week.
(That applies more to the 50 point game. Obviously today Melo attacked the basket great.)

Difficult? Really?

Putting that aside, while I agree, I am not arguing if a player is doing well. Carmelo gets his ass kicked. Look at the stats. In his 50 point game he shot 8 foul shots. In his 40 point game, he shot six. In his 41 point game he shot 4 (while grabbing 14 rebounds, 5 offensive). Today-the game you just said he did a much better job of driving the to the hole-he had 36, had 4 free throws and didn't take his first free throws until 30 seconds were left in the fourth.

Now I ask in a game where he had 5 offensive boards and 41 points (last game) and a game where he had 36 and drove the lane better-by your account- he has a combined 8 free throw attempts. And once again, he didn't take his first free throws against the Thunder until 30 seconds left in the game.

The question is is it really an easier shot if you are driving, getting hit, and not getting the free throws or is it easier to hit from midrange with less interference?

Correction- Carmelo didn't take his first free throws until 30 seconds were left in the game.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=400278865&period=4

Bonn1997 wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:because FTs and drives are where you want them to come from. They're the highest percentage opportunities.

So you don't want someone to shoot well from the field?

I never said that. I'm not sure if you're just trying to be difficult. You should be smart enough to understand that perimeter shots are lower percentage and not the kind you want the player taking a ton of, even if he's having a hot week.
(That applies more to the 50 point game. Obviously today Melo attacked the basket great.)

Difficult? Really?

Putting that aside, while I agree, I am not arguing if a player is doing well. Carmelo gets his ass kicked. Look at the stats. In his 50 point game he shot 8 foul shots. In his 40 point game, he shot six. In his 41 point game he shot 4 (while grabbing 14 rebounds, 5 offensive). Today-the game you just said he did a much better job of driving the to the hole-he had 36, had 4 free throws and didn't take his first free throws until 30 seconds were left in the fourth.

Now I ask in a game where he had 5 offensive boards and 41 points (last game) and a game where he had 36 and drove the lane better-by your account- he has a combined 8 free throw attempts. And once again, he didn't take his first free throws against the Thunder until 30 seconds left in the game.

The question is is it really an easier shot if you are driving, getting hit, and not getting the free throws or is it easier to hit from midrange with less interference?

Correction- Carmelo didn't take his first free throws until 30 seconds were left in the game.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=400278865&period=4

You're unnecessarily reducing the sample to a few games. Yes, Carmelo hits shots better at the rim than on the perimeter and he gets enough foul calls to be a league leader regularly in FTAs.

No I am not. I am talking about the criticism of his recent stretch which IS a few games. Did I talk about all season? No. I referred to 4 games.