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The more I think about it, Redick may be a viable plan C
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dk7th
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2/16/2013  1:21 PM
smackeddog wrote:
dk7th wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
dk7th wrote:it doesn't matter who the knicks try to acquire at this juncture because the core problems of this team will remain.

talk of a trade distracts from deeper issues the team has had all season with the exception of the first 9 games.

So are you going to stop following the team? No point in you watching the games really if we've been terrible all season (apart from those sacred 9 first games), and have no hope of correcting those issues no matter what we do.

no i am going to continue to watch the team with the hope if not expectation that the core problems with the team will be addressed. any dyed-in-the-wool fan can see the team has problems. but there is no use hiding your head in the sand talking about trades. our success is on the coach and the core players, not some sideways trade involving role players.

Well, good- it would be nice to hear about some of your hopes for the team, once in a while. We've got some issues, I agree, and I'm not sure whether we need to slightly tinker with the roster, or whether we just have to start playing better. Main questions for me before the trade deadline are:

Can we afford to stick with Camby and Sheed the rest of the way, hoping they're okay by the playoffs? If not we need to move/cut a player to sign Louis Amundson or K-Mart

Is Brewer mentally destroyed for the rest of the season. We've seen playing in NY do this to players before. He was a really important part of what we did at the start of the season. Then he became Toney Douglas II. Either work him back into being a contributor or get rid of him.

Do we need another PG? And if so do we trade for a semi decent one or aim for a cheap Sebastian Telfair level player?

Do we need a serious upgrade that will require sending out Shumpert? (I say no)

1) the priority is re-dedicating to playing the sort of defense we saw at the very beginning. it was a precedent and a benchmark for the team. we all saw it so we need to see it again. the season depends on this more than any other factor. magic said that the knicks' success is dependent on the defense getting back to what it was because the offense is simply not good enough. the 3-ball has predictably regressed and should never be relied upon as the main source of production anyway. we need to manufacture easy baskets by forcing turnovers.

2) rasheed wallace was a big deal for this team. last i heard the coach says he's only good for ten minutes a game. we need him for those ten minutes and have to hope he doesn't disintegrate further.
3) jason kidd is a big deal for this team but after the break he should be on limited minutes-- no more than 15-18 minutes a game. his legs are gone and his back is brittle. it was criminal to force him to play 30 minutes a night and that is on woodson for thinking tactically instead of strategically. big mistake.
4) play brewer before copeland-- the priority is defenders and energy

2,3, and 4 are going to help some but not elevate this team to contending status. only our main players playing defense for 24 seconds a possession on every possession, like we see with the bulls and the spurs, is going to help the knicks achieve real goals this season.

acquiring amundsen would be okay but if the wolves waived him then what does that tell you? i guess he can be effective working around off the ball and can give a hard foul when necessary. reddick's talents would be squandered. kmart? i have seen him up close and personal back in the day and i am not a fan.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
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gunsnewing
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2/16/2013  1:38 PM
Amundson had no value on the Wolves. They already have Pekovic who is a beast. On the Knicks he would be our Reggie Evans hussle, energy guy who blocks shots and rebounds dives for balls, give hard fouls. Knicks don't have a Junkyard Dawg type on this roster. Too many soft players. Need a better mix.

Could use an upgrade at backup PG(Ridnour/Telfair)put I don't think we should be so desperate that we give up our only young asset in Shumpert.

I like Milsap & Hickson but we are not getting them without giving up Shump

LivingLegend
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2/16/2013  1:41 PM
joec32033 wrote:If finding a SF is out of the question due to lack of quantity, quality then Redick may be a viable option. I thought about this alot yesterday. They need more offense in the staring lineup, they need outside shooting, they need to get Kidd less minutes (he didn't come here to be a starter in any capacity), th also need to fill one spot in the starting lineup consistently.

I know the Magic are focused on young players, and they don't have much, but I think if they packaged Copeland and White with Camby (or maybe Novak who I would hate to lose for this team) and the rights to Ahmad Nivins, maybe the Magic bite. I don't think Camby is going to be ready, even for the playoffs when we will need him and is much more easily replaceable than Novak. Camby (who is already barely one step above a coach) can help tutor the Magic young big men of Ayon and Vucevic. Copeland has some potential as a scorer, and Brewer as filler for Reddick (fills our need for another shooter and as a starting 2 guard who can also help out at the point in a pinch) and Ish Smith (Basically include him because he has 2 years left on his contract and Brewer is a FA at the end of the year allowing the magic to save some cash).

I know I stated before I would hate seeing Shumpert have to play the 3 because to me he is a 2, but he is already playing the 3 with Kidd starting, and a lineup of

Tyson
Melo
Shumpert
Redick
Felton

Smith, Amare, Novak, Kidd

looks pretty well balanced. Camby is replaceable with guys like Amundson and KMart. Redick/Felton is kind of the 2 PG system Woodson likes to play. Redick is also a passable defender at the 2 spot.

It also seems people around the league discount Redick's value-considering he is a 15 point scorer, as I have seen rumours of trades such as Rip Hamilton, Belinelli, and a 1st or trades centered around Lance Stephenson and Hansborough in Indy.

Thoughts?

I believe it would take Shumpert to get Riddick and Shumpert might not be enough by himself.

gunsnewing
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2/16/2013  1:42 PM
Right salaries don't match
joec32033
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2/16/2013  1:45 PM
VCoug wrote:
joec32033 wrote:
VCoug wrote:
joec32033 wrote:
VCoug wrote:
joec32033 wrote:
VCoug wrote:I don't understand how you can say that Orlando would be better off trading Reddick to us for Copeland, White, Camby/Novak and other random garbage and then say that Rip Hamilton, Belinelli, and a 1st or Lance Stephenson, Tyler Hansbrough are way undervalued for him. Not only are those four players better than anyone we would be giving up except for Camby, who's turning 39 and been hurt all season, they're all younger except for Hamilton.

No one is going to trade us anything of value for our garbage. If we want to get a good player in a trade, like Reddick, we have to be willing to give up something that they would want and nobody wants old, crappy players sitting at the end of our bench.

Stephenson averages 8 and 4 and 3 assists. Hansburough averages 6 and 4. Let's not make it like they are world beaters. Both are signed through next season. Stephenson plays the same position as Afflalo (3 yrs 23 million left) Hansbrough plays the same position as Glen Davis. So Redick for two backups?

Rip is salary filler as a FA at he end of the year. Belinelli and Rip both average 10 points from the same position (SG) once again, Afflalo is there at a sizeable contract. Both are FA's at the end of the year. the would only be doing it for the first round pick, which may end up being the Bobcats pick (which at best is pick 13 as it is top 12 protected this year). If the Bulls actually offer this, The Magic should take it. a top 13 pick for Redick is overpaying, IMO.

I already stated the reasons for Camby. It is not in a player capacity. Copeland plays the SF spot and has potential as a scorer (a possible open spot for Orlando. Moe Harckless currently plays there). Ahmad Nivins is in Europe averaging 16 and 8 and is 26. The Magic love using overseas and he is basically a free player. Brewer gets them out of Ish Smith's contract for next year.

Those guys are all getting regular minutes on good teams, ergo, they are better than the bench warmers you're talking about for the Knicks. Other Knicks fans can talk about Copeland channeling Bernard King all they want, his value around the league is 0. He's a crappy player who can't get any burn for a team that could really use some depth and he has literally no upside. Ditto James White. Marcus Camby's "veteran leadership" is not a good enough reason for Orlando to part with a good, young player on an expiring deal.

What makes Belinelli a better fit? He can't beat out Rip and BOTH are FA's at the end of the season. They mind as well keep Redick. The 13 pick for him is overpaying and Orlando should take that deal if offered.

Lance gets 30 minutes and averages 8 and 4 and 3, and plays the position of a guy they have a long term commitment to. Hansbrough is like them trading for Nick Collison or Jared Jefferies. He will be behind Glen Davis.

I don't think Copeland is great. But when he started he did well. Apparently, he has no motivation to play defense which is keeping him off the court here. Maybe Orlando doesn't have that requirement for him to get on the court.

I think it is more about keeping to a long term plan with Orlando. I did my research before posting reading different articles/rumours about his trade value because I was unsure of his value. Seems some teams don't think he will be the same player on a different team.

If it's dumb for Orlando to trade for Belinelli and Hamilton because they'll be free agents after this season why would it be smart for them to trade for Copeland and White who'll be free agents after this season?

I went by RealGM tradechecker, who has them signed through next season. Hoopshype says they are free. In which case you would be correct, there isn't a difference.

Well, RealGM says they're each signed for 2 years, hoopshype says 1 year, Pro Sports Transactions says 1 year, and ESPN says 1 year for Copeland and 2 years for White. I'm going to go with 1 year for both.

That's fair. But for the sake of this conversation, some weight of my point rests with the contracts so let's just agree to disagree.

~You can't run from who you are.~
joec32033
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2/16/2013  1:52 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:Why is Reddick so much more attractive than Dudley?

Let me ask you all this would you trade Shumpert for Tyreke Evans?

Actually, cost effective-wise, he's not. Dudley fills a role as a SF defender and should (should-meaning there is no way he is worth Shumpert, but a couple low expirings to get him off of PHX's books given the current state of their team) come much cheaper than Reddick.

Shump for Evans? Talent wise yes. Tyreke is a very talented offensive player. From a team standpoint? No. Tyreke is a ball stopper, an iffy defender, and from what I remember immature. You remember that mini car chase he put cops on a while back?

~You can't run from who you are.~
joec32033
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2/16/2013  2:07 PM
dk7th wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
dk7th wrote:it doesn't matter who the knicks try to acquire at this juncture because the core problems of this team will remain.

talk of a trade distracts from deeper issues the team has had all season with the exception of the first 9 games.

So are you going to stop following the team? No point in you watching the games really if we've been terrible all season (apart from those sacred 9 first games), and have no hope of correcting those issues no matter what we do.

no i am going to continue to watch the team with the hope if not expectation that the core problems with the team will be addressed. any dyed-in-the-wool fan can see the team has problems. but there is no use hiding your head in the sand talking about trades. our success is on the coach and the core players, not some sideways trade involving role players.

Actually, I think a BIG part of it is supporting cast. I've been tired of the changing starting 5 for a while now. Kidd is not a starting 2. Technically, Shump is not a starting 3, at least not if he is playing out of position to accomodate another guy who shouldn't be starting at the 2.

Carmelo had 42 against the Clips. Why did we lose from my POV? Because Novak was rendered useless with an athletic SF on him. Over the past month, Novak has just sucked from 3 and that is the only way he contributes. We lost because JR from whatever reason wasn't up to challenging Crawford. Because Grant Hill was let loose on Carmelo and no one was able to hit a shot to make LA think about someone else.

I don't think the Knicks are far off. I do think they are missing that one smart player that can defend and hit the three that you can plug into the line up to stabilize the rotation (Notice how important Rasheed was). To me the rotations just seem topsy turvey.

~You can't run from who you are.~
The more I think about it, Redick may be a viable plan C

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