tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Putting people in position to succeed and covering there weaknesses = winning formula.
Putting people in position to fail and then bashing them for not overcoming all obsticales = losing/dysfunctional formula.

A lot of the knocks on Melo were legit at the same time he was slightly over criticized. The problem I had was the viewpoint that he would never get better or ever find success when over the yrs of watching basketball we have seen tons of players do so in the later parts of there careers.

this more than anything else.

Is Melo shooting better?
Is Melo rebounding more?
Is Melo getting more assists?
Is Melo getting more steals? FTS?

How do you quanity Melo doing anything better than he has done the reason of his career?

He's an star and he's playing like an all star. Team is better and winning more games because the team is better so they are winning more games.

Is Melo shooting better?

NO

Is Melo rebounding more?

NO

Is Melo getting more assists?

absolutely NOT..

Is Melo getting more steals? FTS?

NO

How do you quanity Melo doing anything better than he has done the reason of his career?

good post, but you must remember around here...

he is a Knick Fish, the heart wants to believe what the heart wants to believe...

again, I am more impressed with how kidd is playing than anything else...

Wow...you can't even do the work to compare his season stats to his career numbers? He's at his career averages for everything except 3pt FG% (up by 13) and assists (down by 1 because he's on the court with 2 point guards most of the time).

You obviously put on a show to get the board riled up. If not, it's beyond me how you or anyone else can't support Melo when he is doing everything ever asked of him.

OK, SO what are you talking about, fish was asking is he doing anything better.. overall, he isn't... the end bro..

Oh I see. You're saying his career numbers are bad. This means you have no basketball perspective whatsoever. The end bro...

newyorknewyork wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Putting people in position to succeed and covering there weaknesses = winning formula.
Putting people in position to fail and then bashing them for not overcoming all obsticales = losing/dysfunctional formula.

A lot of the knocks on Melo were legit at the same time he was slightly over criticized. The problem I had was the viewpoint that he would never get better or ever find success when over the yrs of watching basketball we have seen tons of players do so in the later parts of there careers.

this more than anything else.

Is Melo shooting better?
Is Melo rebounding more?
Is Melo getting more assists?
Is Melo getting more steals? FTS?

How do you quanity Melo doing anything better than he has done the reason of his career?

He's an star and he's playing like an all star. Team is better and winning more games because the team is better so they are winning more games.

He is putting more effort on defense then he ever has in his career, he is also taking better shots then he has in the past. There are a lot of things that are factoring into that. Like he has a more defensive minded coach then he has ever had in the NBA. And he has more trust in his teammates then he has ever had in the past. Things like trusting teammates and understanding it doesn't have to all be on your shoulders usually comes with age though there are special players that get earlier.

He has been prone at times this season to slip back to bad habits but for he most part he has done a good job in those areas.

His catch and shooting is a lot better this season then last season as well and he is knocking down 3s on the regular which is a great sign for when Amare comes back. Melo's failure to shoot effectively from the outside for the majority of the season last yr hurt Amare's game and Amare's inability to knock down his 18 footer hurt Melo and Tyson's game.

that is a fair analysis, although I may disagree with some of it, at least it is not some poetic extolling of carmelo's virtues.... but a fair analysis.. for me, he doesn't get credit for all of a sudden giving more effort, no athlete does, to me that is just piss poor if an athlete doesn't give effort all of the time..

What I do see is that the knicks as a team are giving a full effort, and the leadership from guys like kidd especially is great. I am a kidd fan as I have thought for some time now that he is an amazingly smart player, off the charts smart... His effect has been the biggest difference so far.. now the knicks as a team are playing better, with more chemistry, and that credit for me is to get spread around at this point.. Knicks are playing well, but we also have a lot of surprises so far this year in the NBA, and this is going to be a dog fight in the east, good think that the knicks got off to a good start...

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Putting people in position to succeed and covering there weaknesses = winning formula.
Putting people in position to fail and then bashing them for not overcoming all obsticales = losing/dysfunctional formula.

A lot of the knocks on Melo were legit at the same time he was slightly over criticized. The problem I had was the viewpoint that he would never get better or ever find success when over the yrs of watching basketball we have seen tons of players do so in the later parts of there careers.

this more than anything else.

Is Melo shooting better?
Is Melo rebounding more?
Is Melo getting more assists?
Is Melo getting more steals? FTS?

How do you quanity Melo doing anything better than he has done the reason of his career?

He's an star and he's playing like an all star. Team is better and winning more games because the team is better so they are winning more games.

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Putting people in position to succeed and covering there weaknesses = winning formula.
Putting people in position to fail and then bashing them for not overcoming all obsticales = losing/dysfunctional formula.

A lot of the knocks on Melo were legit at the same time he was slightly over criticized. The problem I had was the viewpoint that he would never get better or ever find success when over the yrs of watching basketball we have seen tons of players do so in the later parts of there careers.

this more than anything else.

Is Melo shooting better?
Is Melo rebounding more?
Is Melo getting more assists?
Is Melo getting more steals? FTS?

How do you quanity Melo doing anything better than he has done the reason of his career?

He's an star and he's playing like an all star. Team is better and winning more games because the team is better so they are winning more games.

Exactly. I have no doubt that if we Bibby was still our starting PG and we did not have Tyson, we'd be a .400 team again.

Okay, so it's okay for all other great players (Kobe, KD, Lebron, Duncan, etc) to have good, sometimes other great players to surround them, but not Melo? But yet they are all still considered great, right?

Hersports85 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Putting people in position to succeed and covering there weaknesses = winning formula.
Putting people in position to fail and then bashing them for not overcoming all obsticales = losing/dysfunctional formula.

A lot of the knocks on Melo were legit at the same time he was slightly over criticized. The problem I had was the viewpoint that he would never get better or ever find success when over the yrs of watching basketball we have seen tons of players do so in the later parts of there careers.

this more than anything else.

Is Melo shooting better?
Is Melo rebounding more?
Is Melo getting more assists?
Is Melo getting more steals? FTS?

How do you quanity Melo doing anything better than he has done the reason of his career?

He's an star and he's playing like an all star. Team is better and winning more games because the team is better so they are winning more games.

Exactly. I have no doubt that if we Bibby was still our starting PG and we did not have Tyson, we'd be a .400 team again.

Okay, so it's okay for all other great players (Kobe, KD, Lebron, Duncan, etc) to have good, sometimes other great players to surround them, but not Melo? But yet they are all still considered great, right?

Hersports85 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Look... Melo is playing great ball. I didnt make that list to knock him, just to illuminate what is obvious to some. Knicks are better because the team is better.

Whats funny is the minions desperate need to validate his greatness. Melo is the same Melo he's always been. Playing better defense? Sure, Ill bite.

Knicks big story is the backcourt. Funny how Jason Kidd and Felton having a career year are more effective than last year's starters Toney Douglas and Landry Fields. Because its all Melo and coaching right?

Ummm no. Who said that? Just because we point out that Melo is playing elite does not take away the contribution from anybody else on the team. That's the haters that can't see or won't acknowledge that he is a big reason for our success, not the sole reason, but he's plays a bigger role than most on the team, and his teammates have acknowledge this.

He's making smarter decisions which is helping the team, and we are winning without out starting PF and SG. Do you think Kidd or Tyson comes to the knicks if Melo wasn't here, no. They both stated it's one of the main reasons they chose NY, so he has to be doing something right? The problem is, some of you don't want to give him any credit which is kind of sad, seeing that you supposedly are a Knick fan. You should want all your players to succeed. Why are we constantly having a damn argument about is a MVP or not. We are winning and he has improved his game.

I have a question... what is elite in your eyes.. because there seems to be such a need to validate carmelo that is tends to go over the top.. Is elite top 5,10,15? is OJ mayo playing elite? Kobe? lebron? steph curry, zach randolph, david lee? I think one can argue that the criteria you use to measure carmelo as elite you can do the same for these other guys.. and if everyone is elite, then no one is elite... what has melo done so far that makes him elite? I could make a case that OJ mayo is playing better than him, and is having a bigger impact on his team than carmelo.. do you view mayo as elite? Just look around the league, heck david lee is 18/12/4 pretty much... curry is 19/7/3, and their team is playing better than anyone would have imagined without bogut.. there are some real good stories around this league, but for some reason when some of us don't see melo as being extraordinary by comparison, then we are labeled haters... or Non-knick fans...

One thing I have said since we have gotten kidd, that if he can turn back the clock enough, the knicks can win some games, I posted that very thing on this forum.. for me this just highlights what our real need was from the very start, two years ago.... too bad kidd isn't a few years younger.. that is my only regret...

Hersports85 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Look... Melo is playing great ball. I didnt make that list to knock him, just to illuminate what is obvious to some. Knicks are better because the team is better.

Whats funny is the minions desperate need to validate his greatness. Melo is the same Melo he's always been. Playing better defense? Sure, Ill bite.

Knicks big story is the backcourt. Funny how Jason Kidd and Felton having a career year are more effective than last year's starters Toney Douglas and Landry Fields. Because its all Melo and coaching right?

Ummm no. Who said that? Just because we point out that Melo is playing elite does not take away the contribution from anybody else on the team. That's the haters that can't see or won't acknowledge that he is a big reason for our success, not the sole reason, but he's plays a bigger role than most on the team, and his teammates have acknowledged this.

He's making smarter decisions which is helping the team, and we are winning without our starting PF and SG. Do you think Kidd or Tyson comes to the knicks if Melo wasn't here, no. They both stated it's one of the main reasons they chose NY, so he has to be doing something right, right? The problem is, some of you don't want to give him any credit which is kind of sad, seeing that you supposedly are a Knick fan. You should want all your players to succeed. Why are we constantly having a damn argument about is he a MVP or not. We are winning and he has improved his game. That's what count. Stop trying to discredit a good basketball player because you hurt about some outside sh**... no one is forcing you to be a fan of this team. Just come back when all the players you dislike leave.

fishmike wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Look... Melo is playing great ball. I didnt make that list to knock him, just to illuminate what is obvious to some. Knicks are better because the team is better.

Whats funny is the minions desperate need to validate his greatness. Melo is the same Melo he's always been. Playing better defense? Sure, Ill bite.

Knicks big story is the backcourt. Funny how Jason Kidd and Felton having a career year are more effective than last year's starters Toney Douglas and Landry Fields. Because its all Melo and coaching right?

Ummm no. Who said that? Just because we point out that Melo is playing elite does not take away the contribution from anybody else on the team. That's the haters that can't see or won't acknowledge that he is a big reason for our success, not the sole reason, but he's plays a bigger role than most on the team, and his teammates have acknowledge this.

He's making smarter decisions which is helping the team, and we are winning without out starting PF and SG. Do you think Kidd or Tyson comes to the knicks if Melo wasn't here, no. They both stated it's one of the main reasons they chose NY, so he has to be doing something right? The problem is, some of you don't want to give him any credit which is kind of sad, seeing that you supposedly are a Knick fan. You should want all your players to succeed. Why are we constantly having a damn argument about is a MVP or not. We are winning and he has improved his game.

another minion with epic reading comprehension skills. Am I missing something? What are you talking about?

So Melo with Fields and Douglas = same old Melo.
So Melo with Kidd and Felton = improved player and deserves more credit than just saying he's playing great ball.

Got it!

1. The bold part wasn't directed at you. Note that I said "some does not want to give him any credit", which you clearly stated he's playing great ball, so please try to address me another way before you just go off talking about someone has "epic reading comprehension".

2. You were quoted because you said that we desperately try to validate his greatness ... which I simply stated that it's not about validating him, but some POSTERS go out of their way to discredit anything he does, and act like he's just as replaceable as any role player.

3. Melo is not the same Melo. From Jason Kidd to George Karl and several other Ex and current NBA players have been saying all year, Melo is more focused, improving his game to become a better all around player and not just a shooter, and making smarter decisions.

4. Any player will improve or look better with an upgraded backcourt. This is a team game, I have yet to see any great player achieve much success without a good supporting cast. Kidd and Felton gives Melo an opportunity to trust his teammates and focus on other things, which is helping the team all around.

5. And if I'm a minion because I see the improvement in Melo and want the team to succeed then so be it.

newyorknewyork wrote:

fishmike wrote:Look... Melo is playing great ball. I didnt make that list to knock him, just to illuminate what is obvious to some. Knicks are better because the team is better.

Whats funny is the minions desperate need to validate his greatness. Melo is the same Melo he's always been. Playing better defense? Sure, Ill bite.

Knicks big story is the backcourt. Funny how Jason Kidd and Felton having a career year are more effective than last year's starters Toney Douglas and Landry Fields. Because its all Melo and coaching right?

When the same things were argued when he was losing though y wasn't this valid then though? Minions desperate need to validate his greatness is the same as the minions desperate need to devalue and downgrade him. At this point its clearly more of a pissing contest then anything else.

But the guy loses in the playoffs with the Knicks with some depleted rosters and all ppl wanted to talk about was how he was a playoff loser. Y wasn't perspective granted at that point in time?

If you believe that Melo hasn't greatly improved which can be a fair analysis, but has a better cast around him allowing him to be more successful. Isn't that all that was asked when ppl were blasting his playoff failures?

Durant doesn't get downgraded for being able to play with Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden/Martin. Pierce doesn't get downgraded for being able to play with Rondo, Allen, Garnett. Etc...

My point exactly. And if KD or Pierce didn't have those guys, I bet we will be talking about how they're a ball hog as well because they will feel the need to do it themselves.

newyorknewyork wrote:
When the same things were argued when he was losing though y wasn't this valid then though? Minions desperate need to validate his greatness is the same as the minions desperate need to devalue and downgrade him. At this point its clearly more of a pissing contest then anything else.

But the guy loses in the playoffs with the Knicks with some depleted rosters and all ppl wanted to talk about was how he was a playoff loser. Y wasn't perspective granted at that point in time?

If you believe that Melo hasn't greatly improved which can be a fair analysis, but has a better cast around him allowing him to be more successful. Isn't that all that was asked when ppl were blasting his playoff failures?

Durant doesn't get downgraded for being able to play with Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden/Martin. Pierce doesn't get downgraded for being able to play with Rondo, Allen, Garnett. Etc...

You are absolutely correct.