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Our Doctors vs Suns Doctors...Amar'e Knee
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gunsnewing
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10/26/2012  7:41 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/26/2012  7:41 PM
HoopsHype ‏@hoopshype
Rumors: Stoudemire missing four-to-five weeks? + Blazers to waive three players. http://bit.ly/vIcV9Q
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ramtour420
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10/26/2012  10:51 PM
So this means there are doctors and then there are better doctors. Who would have thought ?
Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
NUPE
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10/26/2012  11:16 PM
It is not even clear as to whether Amare actually saw another set of doctors. I wish the Knicks would clarify his time table in regards to a return. As of now, it is two to three weeks but if he felt the need to get a second opinion that could signal a problem...
CrushAlot
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10/26/2012  11:35 PM
NUPE wrote:It is not even clear as to whether Amare actually saw another set of doctors. I wish the Knicks would clarify his time table in regards to a return. As of now, it is two to three weeks but if he felt the need to get a second opinion that could signal a problem...
Berman tweeted that Amare wanted his doctor in Phoenix to take a look at his MRI also. I think that was the extent of his second opinion. I am concerned that I keep reading that the time table for guys to play after micro fracture surgery is 5 years. Amare is an athletic freak. If his knee is compronised I don't know if he can change his game. He hasn't evolved so far but he is incredibly dedicated and to this point has done whatever it takes to overcome the injuries he has encountered.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
Nalod
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10/27/2012  12:40 AM
String the prognosis along and all the while sell more tickets.

Im sure MSG not the first team to do it, but Knicks are pretty dishonest.

CrushAlot
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10/27/2012  12:42 AM
Nalod wrote:String the prognosis along and all the while sell more tickets.

Im sure MSG not the first team to do it, but Knicks are pretty dishonest.

Knicks sell out no matter what. I don't think they are stringing things out but if you are suggesting dishonest like the Patriots injury report weekly I might agree.

I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
smackeddog
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10/27/2012  2:04 AM
No way does it take 4 to 6 weeks to recover from a ruptured cyst- all you're waiting for is the fluid to be absorbed by the body. Definitely something suspicious going on. Urgh, I feel like we're just waiting to hear bad news.
nixluva
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10/27/2012  2:31 AM
CrushAlot wrote:I am concerned that I keep reading that the time table for guys to play after micro fracture surgery is 5 years. Amare is an athletic freak. If his knee is compronised I don't know if he can change his game. He hasn't evolved so far but he is incredibly dedicated and to this point has done whatever it takes to overcome the injuries he has encountered.

The idea of Microfracture giving out after 5 years is actually not necessarily true. STAT got his operation when he was young and before his knee had deteriorated to a large degree. He only had a 1 centimeter area of damage. The fact that he has played so long after with no serious setback is a good sign. The new cyst injury is a concern, but we have to see just what it means. No way to know although the comments we've seen is that it's something he should be able to recover from without a problem. Let's remember that Jason Kidd is still playing on knees repaired by Microfracture.

Who’s Afraid of Microfracture Surgery?
By HOWARD BECK

In N.B.A. circles, there might not be a more terrifying medical term than “microfracture surgery.”

There might not be a more ominous roster than Penny Hardaway, Terrell Brandon, Chris Webber, Jamal Mashburn, Allan Houston and Tracy McGrady — star players who went into rapid decline after the operation.

There might not be a procedure with a greater stigma attached to it. But it might be time for a reassessment.

Amar’e Stoudemire is five years removed from microfracture surgery. He is still playing at an elite level, this season for the Knicks. Although doctors may debate his career longevity, there is no debating his continued dominance on the court.

Stoudemire is living, leaping proof that there is life after microfracture — or, at least, the possibility of life.

Both the operation — which spurs cartilage growth in damaged knees — and the rehabilitation regimen have evolved over the past two decades. Teams are armed with greater knowledge and deeper, more sophisticated training staffs. There are many variables that can affect each patient — his age, the severity and location of the injury, the player’s diligence in rehabilitation — but microfracture is not an automatic death sentence for elite players.

“A lot of the group you’re talking about are almost a prior generation of players,” said Dr. David Altchek, the co-chief of sports medicine and shoulder service at the Hospital for Special Surgery in Manhattan.

Hardaway was almost 29 when he had the operation in 2000. Brandon was 32 when he had it in 2002. Webber was 30 and Houston 32 when they had it in 2003.

Stoudemire, by contrast, was just 22 when he had the operation in 2005. It is one among many factors that can influence the outcome.

Microfracture surgery, which was developed in the late 1980s, involves creating tiny holes (or microfractures) in the bone, releasing bone marrow that helps build new cartilage.

Altchek said that doctors have become more adept at identifying risk factors before performing the surgery — in other words, they now know in advance when the operation might fail.

In the past, doctors often viewed microfracture as a last resort — waiting until a player “was practically crippled,” Altchek said — when, in fact, performing the operation sooner might have yielded a better result. Now lesions in the cartilage are generally treated earlier, before they become too large.

“A lot of those guys were doomed before they started,” Altchek said.

Additionally, postoperative management and rehabilitation “is a lot more rigorous now,” he said.

But every microfracture case is different, depending on the athlete and the injury. Altchek listed the following factors in determining whether a player fully recovers:

¶The size of the lesion. Defects greater than two centimeters “have been known not to do well after microfracture,” Altchek said. (Stoudemire’s, for example, was said to be one centimeter.)

¶Whether the cartilage loss is limited to one side of the bone. If both sides are damaged, “then microfracture doesn’t work,” Altchek said.

¶The quality of the underlying bone. If the bone itself is damaged, it can inhibit cartilage growth.

¶The length of time the knee has been damaged. A more recent injury has a better chance of being treated than a long-term injury.

¶The athlete’s ability to heal, which can vary.

Reflecting on his own painful experience with the surgery, Houston said: “I think it was early. I think that surgery was new for the N.B.A. I think a lot of the rehab, the research, things that are going into the process of rehab from surgery, are a little bit more advanced now.’’

Houston had also experienced knee problems for years, and by the time he got the surgery, “it was like the tire had worn so thin,” he said.

Dr. Richard Steadman, the Vail, Colo.-based surgeon who pioneered the procedure, said there have been many advances in the last 15 years, and some in just the last five years.

Yet even if all goes well, there is a 15 percent chance an operation will be unsuccessful, Steadman said. A lot depends on the patient and his adherence to the rehabilitation program. Steadman generally recommends six to eight months before an athlete returns to full activity. Some players have simply tried to come back too soon.

Steadman seems sensitive to the stigma attached to the term “microfracture” (which he coined) and the list of players whose careers were seemingly ended by it.

“You don’t know how they did their rehabilitation, whether they did it for the right length of time, how the procedure was done,” he said. “If it’s really called a microfracture, you have to do it the way I described it and rehabilitate it the same way.”

That is why the Knicks are optimistic about Stoudemire’s future. Stoudemire is famously diligent about his training and his diet. Stoudemire regularly reports to the Knicks’ training center 90 minutes before practice to work on corrective exercises.

“We knew that he really did work at keeping his knees, his body, in perfect condition,” said Donnie Walsh, the Knicks’ president. “And since he’s been here, it’s even more than I thought. So I feel very good about that.”

Stoudemire has effectively rehabilitated his knee. If he can defy the Phoenix Suns’ dire predictions and play at a high level for another 8 to 10 years, he might just rehabilitate the word “microfracture,” too.

nixluva
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10/27/2012  2:46 AM
I was going along with the popular assumption that the injury was on his Microfracture repaired knee but it wasn't:

AMAR’E STOUDEMIRE
Seeks 2nd opinion on knee.

The Knicks have given a timetable of at least two to three weeks, but coach Mike Woodson said yesterday he really doesn’t know when Stoudemire will be back as he battles his latest injury — a ruptured cyst in the back of his left knee.

Contrary to reports, however, Stoudemire did not have microfracture surgery in 2005 on his left knee. It was his right knee.

My guess is that Amar'e is wondering if his RIGHT knee is perhaps having issues with cartilage. Maybe that's why he's having his old doc look at the MRI. Not that it's damage to the same knee he had surgery on in 05.

smackeddog
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10/27/2012  3:47 AM
nixluva wrote:I was going along with the popular assumption that the injury was on his Microfracture repaired knee but it wasn't:

AMAR’E STOUDEMIRE
Seeks 2nd opinion on knee.

The Knicks have given a timetable of at least two to three weeks, but coach Mike Woodson said yesterday he really doesn’t know when Stoudemire will be back as he battles his latest injury — a ruptured cyst in the back of his left knee.

Contrary to reports, however, Stoudemire did not have microfracture surgery in 2005 on his left knee. It was his right knee.

My guess is that Amar'e is wondering if his RIGHT knee is perhaps having issues with cartilage. Maybe that's why he's having his old doc look at the MRI. Not that it's damage to the same knee he had surgery on in 05.

Suns sources at the time insist it was his left knee, it's only Berman who lately seems to think it was the right. I do wonder whether the 5 year thing is true- Kenyon Martins has lasted longer than that, I think. Also in Amar'es favour is that it was in a non weight baring part of the knee.

At the end of the day I'm worried because I know our luck. However I would have got a second opinion even if it was just a Bakers cyst (which Apparantly can be caused by bone bruises too).

Fingers crossed Amar'e is back and beasting soon.

NUPE
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10/27/2012  8:56 AM
This is massively annoying. I guess we have no choice but to wait and see. Without Amar'e, my expectations for this team drop considerably...
knicks1248
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10/27/2012  9:05 AM
The knicks medical staff has historically been either tight lip or flat out wrong...We all know the suns med staff have been just the opposite..We know that they said amare would have knee issues in year 3 of his contract..

The knicks are actually horrible in every meaning of the word when it comes to injuries.. I hate this franchise for their in ability to get it right, weather it's injuries, coaching, drafting, trading players, signing players...It's alway half ass and not well research

ES
smackeddog
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10/27/2012  9:28 AM
People seem to overate doctors- they are often wrong, because most of their work is based on a calculated guess- there are very few certainties, unfortunately. It's not something unique to Knick doctors (who are actually better than they were before 2005)
Nalod
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10/27/2012  9:50 AM
Blaming doctors are we for our problems?

Thats pretty lame.

How about not having past of prime players in need of them?

PHX had some good state of the art training and therapy as part of the system.

Knicks I have read have been as state of the art spending big to have an edge.

There was a reason Amare shook free from PHX. IF a team is willing to over spend thats their business.

Im sure PHX fans have been saying the same things about losing amare as we been about Lin. Only difference is Amare HAD his best years and Lin is a question mark.

PHX might have been generous with 3 year offer.

yellowboy90
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10/27/2012  10:04 AM
I just wonder why Amar'e hasn't tried getting regenokine injections in his knee. I hope he recovers with out set backs for his sake.
technomaster
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10/27/2012  10:12 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/27/2012  10:14 AM
I wish the doctors who coined the term named it cartilage regeneration surgery - which is more accurate to describe what the target outcome of the surgery. The doctors are the folks that create "micro fractures" in the area to encourage more blood flow and the growth/regeneration of cartilage.


Alternatively speaking, a bone bruise actually describes bone damage at a microscopic level - not enough to qualify as a true fracture - I think bone bruises more accurately line up to the term micro fractures.

Just saying. This should be part of sports media education 101.

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
Bonn1997
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10/27/2012  10:59 AM
technomaster wrote:I wish the doctors who coined the term named it cartilage regeneration surgery - which is more accurate to describe what the target outcome of the surgery. The doctors are the folks that create "micro fractures" in the area to encourage more blood flow and the growth/regeneration of cartilage.


Alternatively speaking, a bone bruise actually describes bone damage at a microscopic level - not enough to qualify as a true fracture - I think bone bruises more accurately line up to the term micro fractures.

Just saying. This should be part of sports media education 101.


Cartilage regeneration is the goal of the surgery. The actual surgery is drilling microfractures. Should the procedure be named after what's being done or what the goal is? If there are other surgical techniques discovered to regenerate cartilage, then the naming would get more confusing.
smackeddog
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10/27/2012  10:59 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/27/2012  11:09 AM
What worries me are the reactions of other Knicks- Melo being sad about it, and Tyson feeling the need to keep Amar'es spirits up. They wouldn't be talking like that if it was just a cyst and a 2-3 week recovery. This has all the hallmarks of something serious.

However people seem to overestimate doctors abilities. They're frequently wrong because a lot of it is guess work- Knicks staff are better than they were, but they're always going to get stuff wrong, just like the Suns staff will.

Oh and then there's this unnerving tweet from Alan Hahn who clearly knows more than he's letting on:

@danielburgos9: @alanhahn Amare 2nd opinion? Bad news or is he trying to play opening night?” He's doing what he needs to do. Reality bites
nixluva
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10/27/2012  12:44 PM
Just too soon to know what the truth is. We'll know for sure in time so no sense worrying about it.
smackeddog
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10/27/2012  12:48 PM
nixluva wrote:Just too soon to know what the truth is. We'll know for sure in time so no sense worrying about it.

I can't help it! I keep checking on these boards expecting to see 'Amar'e out for the season'- battered Knick fan syndrome.

Our Doctors vs Suns Doctors...Amar'e Knee

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