3G4G wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

dk7th wrote:i think that since the advent of the 3-point line it's better to use the eFG% stat:

wade 50.0 eFG
pp 49.9 eFG
kobe 48.6 eFG
melo 47.8 eFG

people deride the TS% stat and i really don't know why, since it folds in FTA into the eFG:

pp 56.9 TS% with 6 seasons of above 58% which is elite scoring 27.8 USG
wade 56.6 TS% with 2 seasons 32.4 USG
kobe 55.4 TS% with 1 season at exactly 58% 31.8 USG, 33.8 USG post shaq
melo 54.4 TS% has 0 seasons of 58% and only 2 seasons above 56% 31.2 USG

if you set up a ratio of TS to USG you get

pp 2.05
wade 1.75
kobe 1.43
melo 1.74

where the higher the number the more efficient.

durant 1.93
lbj 1.79
dirk 2.14
jordan 1.70 pretty low but he more than made up for it with his defense which was head and shoulders above anyone else on this list-- often forgotten.
bird 2.13
magic 2.73 just for kicks

that scrub gallinari is 3.01 and seems to indicate he is deserving of more touches.

wade and melo are about even but wade makes up for this with more assists, in my opinion. there is no excuse for bryant... he's the essence of ballhog and the numbers back this up. if he wants to shed the label he needs to do one thing: share the fvck.in rock!

Good stats - thanks.

Gallo being at 3.01 certainly calls some of this into question - I see his number going down however with the new flopping rules - even though the Gallo jock riders hillarously claim that he does not flop.

His great FT% certainly helps his efficiency.

Also, with some of these advanced stats, seeing Lebron so low is a bit alarming. To me, he is one of the top 2-3 players that I have seen in the last 30 years (with Kobe not even in the stadium)

Your point of the introduction of the 3pt line is a good one as well. PP is a good 3pt shooter and that makes up for his pretty poor overall 2 point shooting.

don't be alarmed. look at jordan's numbers. lebron has the highest assist average by far and he has raised his defensive play to elite level in the last 1.5 seasons, almost on a par with jordan. again, i maintain that the unspoken key to jordan's success and greatness is on the uphill side of the court.

@3G4G you have a point regarding volume that is a flaw in my ratio but i will maintain that it nonetheless backs up the relative selfishness that can only be ameliorated by hockey assists and defensive prowess.

Well I think that you at least agree that Kobe is miles from Jordan and that Lebron is way ahead.

I do not argue that Kobe and Melo are both way too selfish. My only gripe with Kobe (and this was Shaq's gripe) is that when you are playing with players like Shaq and you are selfish, you are REALLY selfish.

An argument can be made that Amare is Melo's Shaq, that is a dumb argument and I need not explain (at least in regards to the last 1.5 years of Amare). Wanna blame Amare's lack of efficiency on Melo? Go ahead but Amare missing open jumpers is his own issue. Its all about his jumper which is sorely needed to create space. Either way, Amare != Shaq.

When Lebron took the Cavs to the Finals what players did he have on his team close to Amar'e or Shaq?

When Dirk took the Mavs to the Finals what players did he have on his team close to Amar'e or Shaq(are you gonna say Tyson?)

When Detroit went to the Finals who were their Amar'e and Shaq?

When Kidd took the Nets to the Finals twice who were their Shaq and Amar'e(are you gonna say K-Mart?)

I tell what they all had in common. Each team had a player or player(s) who were great leaders and more importantly great teammates

Detroit had a great TEAM and the best defensive team you will find. Everyone of their player were excellent (no superstars). Billups, Rip, Rasheed, Prince, and Ben Wallace.

Very rare to have such a well rounded team with no real superstars.

Dallas had Dirk and great guard play plus please don't forget how good Marion is especially defensively. Though also pretty rare for a one star team to win.

I don't think you can tell me another team like these 2 without going back to Hakeem.

The Knicks could win too if they had a really solid PG such as Rondo or even a Billups in his prime. The only problem is, they can't get passed Miami. Dallas did since it was the first year that Miami was assembled and they did not quite mesh. Lebron also added a post game thanks to Hakeem that really helped.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:I'm not sure why this thread was created.

Neither am I. This is at least the 100th time Mrk has boasted about the similarity between Kobe's and Melo's #s.

A bit of an exaggeration even for you but that's ok. You hate it because its true.

I agree that Melo should be more efficient but so does Kobe. Kobe has the great defense which makes him a better overall player but offensively, they are eerily similar. That does not make Melo great it just puts it in perspective.

They both are somewhat inefficient. Kobe got past this with great efficient teammates and being a first team all defender.

I don't hate it. It's pathetic though. I'd welcome a serious discussion and re-evaluation of Kobe, Melo, and many other players. If you add up all the times in any thread you have compared Melo and Kobe, I bet it is around 100.

Do you find it pathetic how often people bash Melo with the exact same dumb arguments? Uh ... prolly not. Why? I can figure that out.

3G4G wrote:I had to look at the thread again and these are career numbers so this makes it somewhat more laughable to an extent...

Better career FG% than Kobe and Pierce

Monta Ellis
Rudy Gay
Brandon Roy
Aaron Afflalo
Deron Williams
Derrick Rose
Dirk
Luol Deng
Andre Iguodala

All Scoring Guards/Forwards

lol.. good post.. i am also confused why this thread was made....

Melo not only scores buckets but he's a headache for opponents, a player coaches have to gameplan around

Gallo, Lin, etc..... none of them were that

Our team is built to win it all and I think we can

3G4G wrote:

GodNa7ion wrote:TS% and other metric stats make players look worse than are

Melo not only scores buckets but he's a headache for opponents, a player coaches have to gameplan around

Gallo, Lin, etc..... none of them were that

Our team is built to win it all and I think we can

Actually Miami game planed around Lin and New Jersey most certainly intensified their play against us when they played him for a second time.

Why let what actually took place or facts get in the way.

As far as Gallo goes he was part of the system teams had to game plan around as he helped stretch the floor for PNR play.

I actually think teams prefer Melo get busy as much as he desires, therefore it throws the rest of the team off if he Melo Balls It too much.

yeah that's the truth. in the playoffs especially since defenses are usually superior. they can easily game plan for him because he is predictable in that he does not recognize defensive pressure adequately. he is going to hold on to the ball no matter what.

3G4G wrote:

GodNa7ion wrote:TS% and other metric stats make players look worse than are

Melo not only scores buckets but he's a headache for opponents, a player coaches have to gameplan around

Gallo, Lin, etc..... none of them were that

Our team is built to win it all and I think we can

Miami game planed around Lin and New Jersey most certainly intensified their play against us when they played him for a second time.

Why let what took place or facts get in the way.

As far as Gallo goes he was part of the system teams had to game plan around as he helped stretch the floor for PNR play.

I think teams prefer Melo get busy as much as he desires, therefore it throws the rest of the team off if he Melo Balls It too much.

Miami didnt game plan around Lin, Mario Chalmers and Norris Cole locked him up and he was exposed, they didnt buy into the hype and it showed

New Jersey didnt do much either, Lin had a good game just got lit up by D-Will

Gallo was never a legit option to lead us to a title, we can all agree, and that system didn't work before so why would it work now.

Any coach would take a Melo and build around him properly and win a title doing so, remember they dont **** up 2 inbound passes in Denver and they beat LA go to the Finals and then beat Orlando most likely again thats an "if" but Melo-Ball works, Kobe-Ball works, Durant-Ball works and LeBron-Ball works. Judge Melo on what he's about to do because he's a changed man and if I'm wrong hey **** it

3G4G wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

dk7th wrote:i think that since the advent of the 3-point line it's better to use the eFG% stat:

wade 50.0 eFG
pp 49.9 eFG
kobe 48.6 eFG
melo 47.8 eFG

people deride the TS% stat and i really don't know why, since it folds in FTA into the eFG:

pp 56.9 TS% with 6 seasons of above 58% which is elite scoring 27.8 USG
wade 56.6 TS% with 2 seasons 32.4 USG
kobe 55.4 TS% with 1 season at exactly 58% 31.8 USG, 33.8 USG post shaq
melo 54.4 TS% has 0 seasons of 58% and only 2 seasons above 56% 31.2 USG

if you set up a ratio of TS to USG you get

pp 2.05
wade 1.75
kobe 1.43
melo 1.74

where the higher the number the more efficient.

durant 1.93
lbj 1.79
dirk 2.14
jordan 1.70 pretty low but he more than made up for it with his defense which was head and shoulders above anyone else on this list-- often forgotten.
bird 2.13
magic 2.73 just for kicks

that scrub gallinari is 3.01 and seems to indicate he is deserving of more touches.

wade and melo are about even but wade makes up for this with more assists, in my opinion. there is no excuse for bryant... he's the essence of ballhog and the numbers back this up. if he wants to shed the label he needs to do one thing: share the fvck.in rock!

Good stats - thanks.

Gallo being at 3.01 certainly calls some of this into question - I see his number going down however with the new flopping rules - even though the Gallo jock riders hillarously claim that he does not flop.

His great FT% certainly helps his efficiency.

Also, with some of these advanced stats, seeing Lebron so low is a bit alarming. To me, he is one of the top 2-3 players that I have seen in the last 30 years (with Kobe not even in the stadium)

Your point of the introduction of the 3pt line is a good one as well. PP is a good 3pt shooter and that makes up for his pretty poor overall 2 point shooting.

don't be alarmed. look at jordan's numbers. lebron has the highest assist average by far and he has raised his defensive play to elite level in the last 1.5 seasons, almost on a par with jordan. again, i maintain that the unspoken key to jordan's success and greatness is on the uphill side of the court.

@3G4G you have a point regarding volume that is a flaw in my ratio but i will maintain that it nonetheless backs up the relative selfishness that can only be ameliorated by hockey assists and defensive prowess.

Well I think that you at least agree that Kobe is miles from Jordan and that Lebron is way ahead.

I do not argue that Kobe and Melo are both way too selfish. My only gripe with Kobe (and this was Shaq's gripe) is that when you are playing with players like Shaq and you are selfish, you are REALLY selfish.

An argument can be made that Amare is Melo's Shaq, that is a dumb argument and I need not explain (at least in regards to the last 1.5 years of Amare). Wanna blame Amare's lack of efficiency on Melo? Go ahead but Amare missing open jumpers is his own issue. Its all about his jumper which is sorely needed to create space. Either way, Amare != Shaq.

When Lebron took the Cavs to the Finals what players did he have on his team close to Amar'e or Shaq?

When Dirk took the Mavs to the Finals what players did he have on his team close to Amar'e or Shaq(are you gonna say Tyson?)

When Detroit went to the Finals who were their Amar'e and Shaq?

When Kidd took the Nets to the Finals twice who were their Shaq and Amar'e(are you gonna say K-Mart?)

I tell what they all had in common. Each team had a player or player(s) who were great leaders and more importantly great teammates

Did you see the last 2 Knick playoff rosters Melo was playing with? Melo didn't have Amare at anywhere near full strenght JR Smith was the second best player on his team and that was last year, as for Kidd leading the Nets to the finals , I don't mean to take anything away from him but the east was the weakest I have ever seen it back then they won 52 games and 49 games and won the atlantic division both years, not exactly dominating the league.

GodNa7ion wrote:TS% and other metric stats make players look worse than are

Melo not only scores buckets but he's a headache for opponents, a player coaches have to gameplan around

Gallo, Lin, etc..... none of them were that

Our team is built to win it all and I think we can

i doubt the TS% stat was intentionally created to make players look worse than they are. do you sincerely believe that?

what it does do is tease out the value of certain players games so far as the type of scoring that helps the team rather than hurts the team. so while scoring points is important and in fact essential what is more important is HOW those points are scored.

this is why bryant and melo are such divisive figures. people see a certain kind of game from them-- lots of shots but not a lot of points per shot is perhaps another way of evaluating them-- and the TS% really backs that up.

How about these #s since we are focused on individual accomplishments... count how many all NBA, all NBA defense, MVP votes... you know, the individual honors in the NBA. How about comparing those for Melo/Kobe/Wade? Should be interesting..... looking forward to the indepth analysis

fishmike wrote:ahh... another "lets desperately quantify Melo's greatness despite the lack of winning" threads.

How about these #s since we are focused on individual accomplishments... count how many all NBA, all NBA defense, MVP votes... you know, the individual honors in the NBA. How about comparing those for Melo/Kobe/Wade? Should be interesting..... looking forward to the indepth analysis

fish, go look at some of my post.. I have been screaming this for weeks.... I know winning a ring is hard, not everyone can win a ring, but what about the individual accolades, I mean at some point, greatness is recognized.. it happened with Barkley when he won MVP, no ring, but many accolades..

I ask, show me one scoring title, one first team all NBA, one mvp, one anything that melo has won?

all I keep getting is.. "best pure scorer".. and again, i ask how do we come to that conclusion..and I get, because he can post up and score.... LOL.. go figure man..

KnicksFE wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:ahh... another "lets desperately quantify Melo's greatness despite the lack of winning" threads.

How about these #s since we are focused on individual accomplishments... count how many all NBA, all NBA defense, MVP votes... you know, the individual honors in the NBA. How about comparing those for Melo/Kobe/Wade? Should be interesting..... looking forward to the indepth analysis

fish, go look at some of my post.. I have been screaming this for weeks.... I know winning a ring is hard, not everyone can win a ring, but what about the individual accolades, I mean at some point, greatness is recognized.. it happened with Barkley when he won MVP, no ring, but many accolades..

I ask, show me one scoring title, one first team all NBA, one mvp, one anything that melo has won?

all I keep getting is.. "best pure scorer".. and again, i ask how do we come to that conclusion..and I get, because he can post up and score.... LOL.. go figure man..

Totally true, let me also add that offense is just half the game, Kobe and Wade are two of the best two way player of their generation, those guys were able to DOMINATE the game defensively as well as offensively during their prime years.

While Melo is one of the best versatile scorers in the NBA, his lack of defense and average passing skills, really limit what his team can do offensively and defensively with him in the lineup.

I just don’t see how mrKnickShot can even compare those guys with Melo, does he even follow the NBA, or just video clips of Melo in youtube?

good point, this reminds me of a convo I had about a week ago, when someone mentioned that bird never won a scoring title , so I guess he wasn't a good scorer..... but I mentioned the difference is, when people think of bird they don't necessarily think of scoring and honestly, no one ever defended bird by using the argument of him being such a great scorer, they always argued that he was a great all around player..... and to add to that, larry bird was second team all nba defense three years in a row..82-84...

so yes, those guys also played defense, passed, all the other things we expect from "elite" players...