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Why is everyone (media, ex players, etc) so focused on the Melo/Stoudemire duo?
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Uptown
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9/22/2012  9:13 AM
callmened wrote:Ive always thought that the issue was tyson & stat. Tyson takes up the space where stat operates. When he played well durng his first yr...he played center

Agreed. I've said this numerous times. When Chandler went down for a few games, Stat put up very good numbers. The Milwaukee game stands out when he and Melo played well.

2 problems with the Chandler Stat combo. First, Chandler ate up most of the pick-n-roll plays last year, a play that Stat made his career off of. Second, when Stat played the 5 in his first year here, he was quicker than the opposition so he would either dribble by them, or knock down the jay because they were too scared to come out. When he went on that scoring run in his first year, most of it was at the 5.

The 4's are quick enough to stay with Stat, so his patented 'put my head down and rush to the basket' move wont work. Also, his jumper vacated him last year. In order for him to be successful this year, he needs some spot minutes at the 5 (probably not going to happen with Camby here) and he needs to be the feature guy in the pick-and roll game. If not, then hopefully, he has improved in the post with Hakeem's help.
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knicks1248
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9/22/2012  9:26 AM
Ewing & starks were the only 2 twenty point scorers, jordan & pipin, hakeem& drexler..

If your a top notch defensive team with a couple of bonifide scorers, you will win regardless. Throw in a few role players that can put up 20 (novak, felton,shump, JR) on a good night, i don't see much of a promblem..

ES
tkf
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9/22/2012  10:19 AM    LAST EDITED: 9/22/2012  10:27 AM
Uptown wrote:
tkf wrote:
holfresh wrote:Chandler doesn't have an offensive game...The Knicks won't be able to compete against the Heat just featuring Anthony on the offensive end...The Heat now have 4 players that can score 20 points on any given night..We have 1...Do the math...Amare has to be Amare for the Knicks to compete...Lakers has 4 guys who can give you 20 points on any given night...OKC has three...Knick's 1...

YOU HAVE A point, but amare can and will never be the amare we remember playing with carmelo... that is the truth.. we have watched this unfold already.

Amare and Melo can play together just fine, especially when Amare is playing center. When Chandler was injured and Stat moved to the 5, both Melo and Amare put p numbers. As someone already mentioned in this thread, its Amare and Chandler that get in each other way.

When Amare went on that tear, before we traded for Melo, Amare did most of his damage at the 5. He was able to blow by slower 5's or they were too afraid to leave the paint and he canned open jay's. At this point in his career, Stat, is probably better at the 5 similar to KG's revitalization at the 5 for the Celts.

numbers show they don't play well together period....I do agree amare at the 5 gives him an advantage but once melo is added to the mix, that amare no longer exists.... just a bad fit.... joe johnson and deron on this team in place of melo would be ideal, probably work for both teams.... we would have a PG and a SG to play with amare and carmelo would get his 50 shots per game in brooklyn...

Amare is the best player on the knicks and he is being asked to reform his game into the next hakeem.. I don't like it at all, and I think so far amare's game has been hurt by all of the changes to this team which honestly not only hasn't made us better( because it has made amare less effective) but surely hasn't put us in position to beat either miami or boston, as both of those teams have gotten better as well...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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9/22/2012  10:21 AM
knicks1248 wrote:Ewing & starks were the only 2 twenty point scorers, jordan & pipin, hakeem& drexler..

If your a top notch defensive team with a couple of bonifide scorers, you will win regardless. Throw in a few role players that can put up 20 (novak, felton,shump, JR) on a good night, i don't see much of a promblem..

problem is we don't have a guy close to the talent and intensity of ewing... ewing willed the knicks to a lot of wins, and starks was another one of those intense guys... those types of players are special...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
nixluva
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9/22/2012  11:30 AM
I really don't know what people are talking about when they say Amar'e isn't quick enough anymore. The truth is that his jumper was off last year and that's what really made him a much less effective player. Players back off of him because they're scared to get beat off the dribble and how he used to take advantage of that was with his jumper. Minus that last year he was much easier to stop. When you can hit the jumper players have to defend much closer and that's when you can blow by them.

This year he should be much sharper and in better shape. Then add that he'll have more ways to attack defenders and it should be a big year for Amar'e. The key will be how Woody has the offense flow in a way that STAT, Melo and Tyson can coexist and play WITH each other, rather than get in each others way. I'd like to see more plays where they have action involving each other. PnR, Give and Go action with each other. There will be times when they won't all be on the floor together and I don't think they'll have any issues then, but when they all start the game they need to be able to flow together.
arkrud
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9/22/2012  11:36 AM
tkf wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Ewing & starks were the only 2 twenty point scorers, jordan & pipin, hakeem& drexler..

If your a top notch defensive team with a couple of bonifide scorers, you will win regardless. Throw in a few role players that can put up 20 (novak, felton,shump, JR) on a good night, i don't see much of a promblem..

problem is we don't have a guy close to the talent and intensity of ewing... ewing willed the knicks to a lot of wins, and starks was another one of those intense guys... those types of players are special...

To win in NBA team need players with a Heart. I think Chandler is one of those. Amare can do it in streaches... may be Camby still have some of this left in him.
But the rest of what we have are just "melo" players. They are cool, they are winners in life.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
smackeddog
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9/22/2012  11:38 AM
tkf wrote:
Uptown wrote:
tkf wrote:
holfresh wrote:Chandler doesn't have an offensive game...The Knicks won't be able to compete against the Heat just featuring Anthony on the offensive end...The Heat now have 4 players that can score 20 points on any given night..We have 1...Do the math...Amare has to be Amare for the Knicks to compete...Lakers has 4 guys who can give you 20 points on any given night...OKC has three...Knick's 1...

YOU HAVE A point, but amare can and will never be the amare we remember playing with carmelo... that is the truth.. we have watched this unfold already.

Amare and Melo can play together just fine, especially when Amare is playing center. When Chandler was injured and Stat moved to the 5, both Melo and Amare put p numbers. As someone already mentioned in this thread, its Amare and Chandler that get in each other way.

When Amare went on that tear, before we traded for Melo, Amare did most of his damage at the 5. He was able to blow by slower 5's or they were too afraid to leave the paint and he canned open jay's. At this point in his career, Stat, is probably better at the 5 similar to KG's revitalization at the 5 for the Celts.

numbers show they don't play well together period....I do agree amare at the 5 gives him an advantage but once melo is added to the mix, that amare no longer exists.... just a bad fit.... joe johnson and deron on this team in place of melo would be ideal, probably work for both teams.... we would have a PG and a SG to play with amare and carmelo would get his 50 shots per game in brooklyn...

Amare is the best player on the knicks and he is being asked to reform his game into the next hakeem.. I don't like it at all, and I think so far amare's game has been hurt by all of the changes to this team which honestly not only hasn't made us better( because it has made amare less effective) but surely hasn't put us in position to beat either miami or boston, as both of those teams have gotten better as well...

The whole Amar'e and Melo thing is overblown. They don't compliment each other, and they're not a great fit together, but lets not forget Ewing didn't really mesh well with any player from the point we retooled with LJ and Houston. Didn't stop those teams winning at a high rate. Like JVG said last season- people get so wrapped up on the offensive side, when in actual fact if the two just focus on fitting together defensively we'll be fine. If the defense is great, then they can just take turns in dominating games offensively.
knickscity
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9/22/2012  11:53 AM
tkf wrote:
Uptown wrote:
tkf wrote:
holfresh wrote:Chandler doesn't have an offensive game...The Knicks won't be able to compete against the Heat just featuring Anthony on the offensive end...The Heat now have 4 players that can score 20 points on any given night..We have 1...Do the math...Amare has to be Amare for the Knicks to compete...Lakers has 4 guys who can give you 20 points on any given night...OKC has three...Knick's 1...

YOU HAVE A point, but amare can and will never be the amare we remember playing with carmelo... that is the truth.. we have watched this unfold already.

Amare and Melo can play together just fine, especially when Amare is playing center. When Chandler was injured and Stat moved to the 5, both Melo and Amare put p numbers. As someone already mentioned in this thread, its Amare and Chandler that get in each other way.

When Amare went on that tear, before we traded for Melo, Amare did most of his damage at the 5. He was able to blow by slower 5's or they were too afraid to leave the paint and he canned open jay's. At this point in his career, Stat, is probably better at the 5 similar to KG's revitalization at the 5 for the Celts.

numbers show they don't play well together period....I do agree amare at the 5 gives him an advantage but once melo is added to the mix, that amare no longer exists.... just a bad fit.... joe johnson and deron on this team in place of melo would be ideal, probably work for both teams.... we would have a PG and a SG to play with amare and carmelo would get his 50 shots per game in brooklyn...

Amare is the best player on the knicks and he is being asked to reform his game into the next hakeem.. I don't like it at all, and I think so far amare's game has been hurt by all of the changes to this team which honestly not only hasn't made us better( because it has made amare less effective) but surely hasn't put us in position to beat either miami or boston, as both of those teams have gotten better as well...


Even though I do not feel Amare is the best player on the team primarily because he only impacts the game in only one facet, and is despicable in all of the others, how can you not expect YOUR BEST PLAYER to not reform his game?

Kinda glad Woodson has some balls and got Amare to work on his complete game.

Nothing wrong with a player getting better.
tkf
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9/22/2012  4:51 PM
knickscity wrote:
tkf wrote:
Uptown wrote:
tkf wrote:
holfresh wrote:Chandler doesn't have an offensive game...The Knicks won't be able to compete against the Heat just featuring Anthony on the offensive end...The Heat now have 4 players that can score 20 points on any given night..We have 1...Do the math...Amare has to be Amare for the Knicks to compete...Lakers has 4 guys who can give you 20 points on any given night...OKC has three...Knick's 1...

YOU HAVE A point, but amare can and will never be the amare we remember playing with carmelo... that is the truth.. we have watched this unfold already.

Amare and Melo can play together just fine, especially when Amare is playing center. When Chandler was injured and Stat moved to the 5, both Melo and Amare put p numbers. As someone already mentioned in this thread, its Amare and Chandler that get in each other way.

When Amare went on that tear, before we traded for Melo, Amare did most of his damage at the 5. He was able to blow by slower 5's or they were too afraid to leave the paint and he canned open jay's. At this point in his career, Stat, is probably better at the 5 similar to KG's revitalization at the 5 for the Celts.

numbers show they don't play well together period....I do agree amare at the 5 gives him an advantage but once melo is added to the mix, that amare no longer exists.... just a bad fit.... joe johnson and deron on this team in place of melo would be ideal, probably work for both teams.... we would have a PG and a SG to play with amare and carmelo would get his 50 shots per game in brooklyn...

Amare is the best player on the knicks and he is being asked to reform his game into the next hakeem.. I don't like it at all, and I think so far amare's game has been hurt by all of the changes to this team which honestly not only hasn't made us better( because it has made amare less effective) but surely hasn't put us in position to beat either miami or boston, as both of those teams have gotten better as well...


Even though I do not feel Amare is the best player on the team primarily because he only impacts the game in only one facet, and is despicable in all of the others, how can you not expect YOUR BEST PLAYER to not reform his game?

Kinda glad Woodson has some balls and got Amare to work on his complete game.

Nothing wrong with a player getting better.

reform his game? what amare really needs is a dose of charles oakley.. better rebounding and defense.... learning a few post moves from hakee, is not going to reform his game.. amare is a pick and roll player, trying to turn him into a slow down half court player to me is not best for him or the knicks...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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9/22/2012  4:56 PM
smackeddog wrote:
tkf wrote:
Uptown wrote:
tkf wrote:
holfresh wrote:Chandler doesn't have an offensive game...The Knicks won't be able to compete against the Heat just featuring Anthony on the offensive end...The Heat now have 4 players that can score 20 points on any given night..We have 1...Do the math...Amare has to be Amare for the Knicks to compete...Lakers has 4 guys who can give you 20 points on any given night...OKC has three...Knick's 1...

YOU HAVE A point, but amare can and will never be the amare we remember playing with carmelo... that is the truth.. we have watched this unfold already.

Amare and Melo can play together just fine, especially when Amare is playing center. When Chandler was injured and Stat moved to the 5, both Melo and Amare put p numbers. As someone already mentioned in this thread, its Amare and Chandler that get in each other way.

When Amare went on that tear, before we traded for Melo, Amare did most of his damage at the 5. He was able to blow by slower 5's or they were too afraid to leave the paint and he canned open jay's. At this point in his career, Stat, is probably better at the 5 similar to KG's revitalization at the 5 for the Celts.

numbers show they don't play well together period....I do agree amare at the 5 gives him an advantage but once melo is added to the mix, that amare no longer exists.... just a bad fit.... joe johnson and deron on this team in place of melo would be ideal, probably work for both teams.... we would have a PG and a SG to play with amare and carmelo would get his 50 shots per game in brooklyn...

Amare is the best player on the knicks and he is being asked to reform his game into the next hakeem.. I don't like it at all, and I think so far amare's game has been hurt by all of the changes to this team which honestly not only hasn't made us better( because it has made amare less effective) but surely hasn't put us in position to beat either miami or boston, as both of those teams have gotten better as well...

The whole Amar'e and Melo thing is overblown. They don't compliment each other, and they're not a great fit together, but lets not forget Ewing didn't really mesh well with any player from the point we retooled with LJ and Houston. Didn't stop those teams winning at a high rate. Like JVG said last season- people get so wrapped up on the offensive side, when in actual fact if the two just focus on fitting together defensively we'll be fine. If the defense is great, then they can just take turns in dominating games offensively.

I think Ewing played well with Houston and LJ.. LJ was the one to change his game when he got here, I remember him sayng " it's not about stats,I am about winning and doing whatever it takes".... plus lets be real we just don't have LJ and Houston talent on this team in their prime.....the biggest problem ewing had was with don nelson....

t

he two just focus on fitting together defensively we'll be fine

neither one defends, amare will at least block shots, but the only thing those two will be on the same page with defensively is not playing much of it at all. I am sure they will mesh in that sense...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
CrushAlot
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9/22/2012  5:21 PM
tkf wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
tkf wrote:
Uptown wrote:
tkf wrote:
holfresh wrote:Chandler doesn't have an offensive game...The Knicks won't be able to compete against the Heat just featuring Anthony on the offensive end...The Heat now have 4 players that can score 20 points on any given night..We have 1...Do the math...Amare has to be Amare for the Knicks to compete...Lakers has 4 guys who can give you 20 points on any given night...OKC has three...Knick's 1...

YOU HAVE A point, but amare can and will never be the amare we remember playing with carmelo... that is the truth.. we have watched this unfold already.

Amare and Melo can play together just fine, especially when Amare is playing center. When Chandler was injured and Stat moved to the 5, both Melo and Amare put p numbers. As someone already mentioned in this thread, its Amare and Chandler that get in each other way.

When Amare went on that tear, before we traded for Melo, Amare did most of his damage at the 5. He was able to blow by slower 5's or they were too afraid to leave the paint and he canned open jay's. At this point in his career, Stat, is probably better at the 5 similar to KG's revitalization at the 5 for the Celts.

numbers show they don't play well together period....I do agree amare at the 5 gives him an advantage but once melo is added to the mix, that amare no longer exists.... just a bad fit.... joe johnson and deron on this team in place of melo would be ideal, probably work for both teams.... we would have a PG and a SG to play with amare and carmelo would get his 50 shots per game in brooklyn...

Amare is the best player on the knicks and he is being asked to reform his game into the next hakeem.. I don't like it at all, and I think so far amare's game has been hurt by all of the changes to this team which honestly not only hasn't made us better( because it has made amare less effective) but surely hasn't put us in position to beat either miami or boston, as both of those teams have gotten better as well...

The whole Amar'e and Melo thing is overblown. They don't compliment each other, and they're not a great fit together, but lets not forget Ewing didn't really mesh well with any player from the point we retooled with LJ and Houston. Didn't stop those teams winning at a high rate. Like JVG said last season- people get so wrapped up on the offensive side, when in actual fact if the two just focus on fitting together defensively we'll be fine. If the defense is great, then they can just take turns in dominating games offensively.

I think Ewing played well with Houston and LJ.. LJ was the one to change his game when he got here, I remember him sayng " it's not about stats,I am about winning and doing whatever it takes".... plus lets be real we just don't have LJ and Houston talent on this team in their prime.....the biggest problem ewing had was with don nelson....

t

he two just focus on fitting together defensively we'll be fine

neither one defends, amare will at least block shots, but the only thing those two will be on the same page with defensively is not playing much of it at all. I am sure they will mesh in that sense...

Neither defends like the old school Knicks did but if you are comparing the two, Melo is the better defender.

I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
CashMoney
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9/23/2012  10:29 AM
IMHO I beleive Melo and STAT will play well together. Training camp gives players an opportunity to work out the kinks and in all fairness this will be the first time they've had a training camp together. They also didn't have much practice time togther last year.

With the team pre-camp and an actual training camp I think they'll be just fine.

Blue & Orange 4 Life!
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9/23/2012  1:50 PM
the only logical move that woodson should make is what walt frazier has recently suggested: have amare come off the bench. there he can play the finisher in the pick and roll (isn't that prigoni's specialty? kidd is probably adequate in the pick and roll too), be the main guy (like we saw the first 60 games of 2010-11), work on whatever post-up game he may be able to develop against weaker bench defenders.

it is just that simple.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
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9/23/2012  2:02 PM
dk7th wrote:the only logical move that woodson should make is what walt frazier has recently suggested: have amare come off the bench. there he can play the finisher in the pick and roll (isn't that prigoni's specialty? kidd is probably adequate in the pick and roll too), be the main guy (like we saw the first 60 games of 2010-11), work on whatever post-up game he may be able to develop against weaker bench defenders.

it is just that simple.

I think will see a variation of this but I think Amare starts. I think he just has more time on the court without Tyson as the game goes on.

I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
holfresh
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9/23/2012  2:24 PM
If Amare doesn't start, play starters minutes, and play well, the Knicks doesn't have a chance..It's that simple...
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9/23/2012  2:53 PM
holfresh wrote:If Amare doesn't start, play starters minutes, and play well, the Knicks doesn't have a chance..It's that simple...

i don't see how he can mesh with both chandler and melo at the same time. since we need chandler's d and melo's o more than stoudemire's d and o, stoudemire could be far more valuable as a bench deepener.

as it stands amare and melo don't have the tools to properly mesh with each other and that is a huge drawback so far as creating synergy. asking felton to do that work is asking too much.

sometimes it is a question of meshing lesser players to create solid five-man units. addition by subtraction.

how do you envision the offense with your scenario?

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
holfresh
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9/23/2012  3:05 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/23/2012  3:13 PM
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:If Amare doesn't start, play starters minutes, and play well, the Knicks doesn't have a chance..It's that simple...

i don't see how he can mesh with both chandler and melo at the same time. since we need chandler's d and melo's o more than stoudemire's d and o, stoudemire could be far more valuable as a bench deepener.

as it stands amare and melo don't have the tools to properly mesh with each other and that is a huge drawback so far as creating synergy. asking felton to do that work is asking too much.

sometimes it is a question of meshing lesser players to create solid five-man units. addition by subtraction.

how do you envision the offense with your scenario?

The Knicks would be foolish to go into the season with Melo being it's only option on offense...Miami have three...Boston have three...Teams will just key on him as Miami did in the playoffs...How do u know they can't mesh?? ...We have never seen an offense implemented that uses the all the skills of both players...U can't tell me you are drawing conclusions from MDA's offense with Melo standing in the corner are u?

Another thing..Amare hasn't been the same player since his injury and since Felton was traded...Amare needs a pick and roll PG to be effective...Let's give them some time to gel with a PG before drawing conclusions...
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9/23/2012  3:21 PM
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:If Amare doesn't start, play starters minutes, and play well, the Knicks doesn't have a chance..It's that simple...

i don't see how he can mesh with both chandler and melo at the same time. since we need chandler's d and melo's o more than stoudemire's d and o, stoudemire could be far more valuable as a bench deepener.

as it stands amare and melo don't have the tools to properly mesh with each other and that is a huge drawback so far as creating synergy. asking felton to do that work is asking too much.

sometimes it is a question of meshing lesser players to create solid five-man units. addition by subtraction.

how do you envision the offense with your scenario?

The Knicks would be foolish to go into the season with Melo being it's only option on offense...Miami have three...Boston have three...Teams will just key on him as Miami did in the playoffs...How do u know they can't mesh?? ...We have never seen an offense implemented that uses the all the skills of both players...U can't tell me you are drawing conclusions from MDA's offense with Melo standing in the corner are u?

Another thing..Amare hasn't been the same player since his injury and since Felton was traded...Amare needs a pick and roll PG to be effective...Let's give them some time to gel with a PG before drawing conclusions...

Also, a training camp might help some.

I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
Uptown
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9/23/2012  3:22 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/23/2012  3:30 PM
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:If Amare doesn't start, play starters minutes, and play well, the Knicks doesn't have a chance..It's that simple...

i don't see how he can mesh with both chandler and melo at the same time. since we need chandler's d and melo's o more than stoudemire's d and o, stoudemire could be far more valuable as a bench deepener.

as it stands amare and melo don't have the tools to properly mesh with each other and that is a huge drawback so far as creating synergy. asking felton to do that work is asking too much.

sometimes it is a question of meshing lesser players to create solid five-man units. addition by subtraction.

how do you envision the offense with your scenario?

The Knicks would be foolish to go into the season with Melo being it's only option on offense...Miami have three...Boston have three...Teams will just key on him as Miami did in the playoffs...How do u know they can't mesh?? ...We have never seen an offense implemented that uses the all the skills of both players...U can't tell me you are drawing conclusions from MDA's offense with Melo standing in the corner are u?

Another thing..Amare hasn't been the same player since his injury and since Felton was traded...Amare needs a pick and roll PG to be effective...Let's give them some time to gel with a PG before drawing conclusions...

Very good post. Couldn't agree more. Once upon a time, Amare was the best pick-n-roll forward in the league. For some reason, Chandler ran most of the pick-n-rolls last year while Stat kind of hung around the top of the key trying to fix his broken jumper. Hopefully, Woodson gets back to allowing Stat to run pick-n-roll, especially now that we have Ray and Kidd here.
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Member: #33
USA
9/23/2012  3:26 PM
when in doubt...

blame canada...

i mean meeeelloooo

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
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Why is everyone (media, ex players, etc) so focused on the Melo/Stoudemire duo?
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