loweyecue wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

loweyecue wrote:Briggs, people outside the US, especially in places like the middle east, where they are hanging on day by day for dear life amidst all kinds of violence, couldn't give a rats ass about the distinction between American film makers and American Govt. to them we are just Americans. All treated as the same seething mass of anti Islamic hatred. It is easy to incite violent reactions in a situation like this that is rife with stres, panic and vitriol.

Half of my family are from and live in Egypt- to be honest, the extent of anti-American feeling in the middle east gets over reported- I'd say the majority are either pro American or largely uninterested in America (most people don't think about America at all during their day outside of movies and tv- why would they?).

The problem is mainly the extent to which the minority resort to violence and are stirred up by people who gain power and standing be the bloodshed that follows- and that's not a problem unique to the middle east- plenty of Americans were ready to go guns blazing to kill any random people in the middle east after 9/11.

I never really get why people can't just disagree or get p***ed off when someone insults their belief- why switch to kill mode? But like I said, it seems to be a universal human trait, and I'm sure if some Christains in America felt that they're religion was under attack, would behave the same if stirred up by their preachers.

It's always the same problem everywhere. If the majority doesn't step up to set the record straight the minority gets away with their extreme agenda. And after a while they are no longer the minority anymore. Just look at the infiltartion of the GOP by the TEA party. In times like this if the majority wants to be treated differently from the vocal,activist, hate mongering minority they need to actually DO something to make that difference clear. It is always a small handful of people who benefit from Hate and it is upto everyone else t see that they don't.

JamesKPolk wrote:The question I have is...

Why do people have to die over a movie?

Why can't these groups of people be civil about things?

Their civilization is at level Europe nations were in 15-16 centuries.
They will get it in their time if by this time they will not destroy each other or the whole world.
They are like children, little minds, anybody can manipulate them.
We should leave them alone and let them learn their lessons.
But if they want to come to us and teach us how we should leave just show them the door an if they do not understand kick their a..ss.
They understand power and power only.

arkrud wrote:

JamesKPolk wrote:The question I have is...

Why do people have to die over a movie?

Why can't these groups of people be civil about things?

Their civilization is at level Europe nations were in 15-16 centuries.
They will get it in their time if by this time they will not destroy each other or the whole world.
They are like children, little minds, anybody can manipulate them.
We should leave them alone and let them learn their lessons.
But if they want to come to us and teach us how we should leave just show them the door an if they do not understand kick their a..ss.
They understand power and power only.

The whole of US policy is and has been a colossal failure for the past two decades. We still act as though if they just had democracy they would soon adopt our values and goals. We act as though they want to be like America, if only we would show them they way. They don't want that at all and hopefully we come to that realization soon.

nykshaknbake wrote:

arkrud wrote:

JamesKPolk wrote:The question I have is...

Why do people have to die over a movie?

Why can't these groups of people be civil about things?

Their civilization is at level Europe nations were in 15-16 centuries.
They will get it in their time if by this time they will not destroy each other or the whole world.
They are like children, little minds, anybody can manipulate them.
We should leave them alone and let them learn their lessons.
But if they want to come to us and teach us how we should leave just show them the door an if they do not understand kick their a..ss.
They understand power and power only.

The whole of US policy is and has been a colossal failure for the past two decades. We still act as though if they just had democracy they would soon adopt our values and goals. We act as though they want to be like America, if only we would show them they way. They don't want that at all and hopefully we come to that realization soon.

Bullseye!

Often times, force feed democracy on a country will backfire on US policy. There are countries with long history of authoritarian government. It's deeply embedded in their 1000-year culture and in their blood. You can't change anyone until they want to make the change themselves. This is human psychology 101; people resent anyone who forces to change them.

Talking about policy is one thing, talking about the members of other races or religions like they are sub-human or primitive is something entirely different. I would hope that we could all agree that stereotyping an entire race or religion has no place on this board.

I don't care where you're from, your religion, race, or any other way you classify yourself. We're all Knicks fans here and I very much enjoy the discussions we have and I hope we continue to have a community that makes everyone feel welcome. Goodnight and go Knicks.

And yes. Americans are no better. If we were trained to kill for religious purposes, we would do it too.

There is altruism everywhere that includes listening to someone you respect who tells you and convinces you that you are doing the Lords work by killing.

Again, radical fundamentalism is not just a muslim issue. Its a Christian issue, a jewish issue and has existed forever. However at this present time, it is more prevalent in the muslim world.

Extreme religious FUNDAMENTALISM is scary and it comes in many forms. And the scariest part is that there is not much that can be done about it. And America has not helped with their continued/miserable attempts to control the middle east with their own agendas.

GustavBahler wrote:

muhaha wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

arkrud wrote:

JamesKPolk wrote:The question I have is...

Why do people have to die over a movie?

Why can't these groups of people be civil about things?

Their civilization is at level Europe nations were in 15-16 centuries.
They will get it in their time if by this time they will not destroy each other or the whole world.
They are like children, little minds, anybody can manipulate them.
We should leave them alone and let them learn their lessons.
But if they want to come to us and teach us how we should leave just show them the door an if they do not understand kick their a..ss.
They understand power and power only.

The whole of US policy is and has been a colossal failure for the past two decades. We still act as though if they just had democracy they would soon adopt our values and goals. We act as though they want to be like America, if only we would show them they way. They don't want that at all and hopefully we come to that realization soon.

Bullseye!

Often times, force feed democracy on a country will backfire on US policy. There are countries with long history of authoritarian government. It's deeply embedded in their 1000-year culture and in their blood. You can't change anyone until they want to make the change themselves. This is human psychology 101; people resent anyone who forces to change them.

Europe was ruled by monarchies for centuries, would you say that its "embedded in their culture" to be ruled as well?

Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Libya all overthrew their leaders, they want freedom. We shouldn't force any system on any country and we shouldn't prevent them from wanting to change their system either. We shouldn't support democracy only when we get to pick the winner.

If you're going to send send billions of dollars, weapons to use on their own people, train their goons, to prop up their regimes which keeps its citizens in poverty and tortures them, don't be surprised if they get po'd about it and get radicalized. Most of them just want to make a decent living for their families and don't want the government kicking down their doors in the middle of the night and hauling them away. We have some fundamentalists in this country who want to send us back to the middle ages, radicals are every where.

Excellent post. We support totalitarian regimes when it suits our strategic purpose with little or no regard to how our so called "values" are being abused by them. We supported Mubarak, heck we even supported the Taliban against Russia. The same people who decree that women be publicly stoned to death on mere suspicion of adultery while the men who did it walk around like nothing happened. And then we can't understand why people hate us.

We paid billions to the military regimes in Pakistan to help destabilize India, when India was the largest Democracy in the world in terms of population strength. So why are the people of Pakistan against us? The billions we sent were used to buy weapons and kine the pockets of the military while the people lived in abject misery. Just sending money over doesn't mean we are buying the loyalty of the people in those countries and that argument is laughable. We don't send money out of altruism though we want to be all self righteous about it.

jrodmc wrote:

Vmart wrote:That's religion for you. Biggest cause of death for humanity.

Yeah. Very true. Especially the religion of atheism.

Nobody can compare with that body count.

smackeddog wrote:

arkrud wrote:

Their civilization is at level Europe nations were in 15-16 centuries.
They will get it in their time if by this time they will not destroy each other or the whole world.
They are like children, little minds, anybody can manipulate them.
We should leave them alone and let them learn their lessons.
But if they want to come to us and teach us how we should leave just show them the door an if they do not understand kick their a..ss.
They understand power and power only.

Racist c**p. Have you even been to any middle eastern countries? Have you spent any time even talking to any people there? But yeah, because you've seen some angry people on tv they must all be like that, right? Not as civilized as white people in the west with their holocausts, racial segregation, slavery, colonialism and atom bombs!

GustavBahler gave a great response, which I can't top, and this thread is starting to depress me too.

There is nothing racist about it. The human race is not advancing evenly in every country. There are setbacks and degradation of the society and this is normal.
Rom empire failed to the Barbarians and Europe was going through dark ages for 1000+ years. This was time of mass killing, religious wars and Inquisition, brutality and dirt life. The ancient Egypt and China civilization succumbed to primitive tribes and all their advances were forgotten. Middle ages Muslim renaissance in Central Asia was destroyed by primitive Arab nomad tribes and so on.
I was in Egypt and this is not the worst country in Middle East. This is a mess. Sure they have different culture but the value of human live and dignity of man and woman is last on the list after religion and power to be, money, and ego. They have ways to go. Sure they have some bright and companionable people as individually they are not different from any other nations but overall they have a long way to go to build the public society which made for the benefit of the people not Mullahs and politicians.

smackeddog wrote:

arkrud wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

arkrud wrote:

Their civilization is at level Europe nations were in 15-16 centuries.
They will get it in their time if by this time they will not destroy each other or the whole world.
They are like children, little minds, anybody can manipulate them.
We should leave them alone and let them learn their lessons.
But if they want to come to us and teach us how we should leave just show them the door an if they do not understand kick their a..ss.
They understand power and power only.

Racist c**p. Have you even been to any middle eastern countries? Have you spent any time even talking to any people there? But yeah, because you've seen some angry people on tv they must all be like that, right? Not as civilized as white people in the west with their holocausts, racial segregation, slavery, colonialism and atom bombs!

GustavBahler gave a great response, which I can't top, and this thread is starting to depress me too.

There is nothing racist about it. The human race is not advancing evenly in every country. There are setbacks and degradation of the society and this is normal.
Rom empire failed to the Barbarians and Europe was going through dark ages for 1000+ years. This was time of mass killing, religious wars and Inquisition, brutality and dirt life. The ancient Egypt and China civilization succumbed to primitive tribes and all their advances were forgotten. Middle ages Muslim renaissance in Central Asia was destroyed by primitive Arab nomad tribes and so on.
I was in Egypt and this is not the worst country in Middle East. This is a mess. Sure they have different culture but the value of human live and dignity of man and woman is last on the list after religion and power to be, money, and ego. They have ways to go. Sure they have some bright and companionable people as individually they are not different from any other nations but overall they have a long way to go to build the public society which made for the benefit of the people not Mullahs and politicians.

I do find that kind of talk inherently racist- the whole western societies being more 'civilized' (i.e. superior) myth has lead to the greatest atrocities in history. Honestly where do the holocaust, the dropping of the atom bomb, slavery and racial segregation fit on 'the hierarchy of civilization?'. And the part I've put in bold in your comments could be said about people in America. A lot of people are more interested in money than treating their fellow human beings with dignity.

The problem is you're comparing you're idealized, non-existent view of your own society onto the worst, most exaggerated excesses of another. In reality, we live in a society in which people kill other people for money, racism, drug addiction and because their partner cheated on them! You look at the middle east on the news and all they show is the people demonstrating angrily, you don't see the other elements of society where people are at home getting on with their own lives.

People are pretty much the same everywhere, and I just think it's unhealthy when you start talking about one group being superior, especially when based on beliefs that they don't actually hold or adhere to.

I never said that people in the West are superior. People do same bad things everywhere. I am looking at the society as a whole from the results of their collective being.
Do you really believe that live in Middle East is more secure, average folks have more freedom and opportunities in live, are on average better off financially, have more access to advances of culture, science, medicine, entertainment, sports? What about stoning woman, home violence, torcher, poisoning girls to deny them access to education, beheadings, suicide bombings, massacres of any other cast/tribes, killing of infidels only because they believe in same God called by other name? What about resolving debates by violence and destruction which going on now. Is this civilized? Is this civilized in the specific "Islam culture" terms or in general?
What the current Middle East Islam culture brought to the world of man? Any great inventions? Any examples of greatness and compassion? If you know - then tell me the examples. Because I cannot see much. What this people are bringing to the human civilization that worth keeping and remembering?

arkrud wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

arkrud wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

arkrud wrote:

Their civilization is at level Europe nations were in 15-16 centuries.
They will get it in their time if by this time they will not destroy each other or the whole world.
They are like children, little minds, anybody can manipulate them.
We should leave them alone and let them learn their lessons.
But if they want to come to us and teach us how we should leave just show them the door an if they do not understand kick their a..ss.
They understand power and power only.

Racist c**p. Have you even been to any middle eastern countries? Have you spent any time even talking to any people there? But yeah, because you've seen some angry people on tv they must all be like that, right? Not as civilized as white people in the west with their holocausts, racial segregation, slavery, colonialism and atom bombs!

GustavBahler gave a great response, which I can't top, and this thread is starting to depress me too.

There is nothing racist about it. The human race is not advancing evenly in every country. There are setbacks and degradation of the society and this is normal.
Rom empire failed to the Barbarians and Europe was going through dark ages for 1000+ years. This was time of mass killing, religious wars and Inquisition, brutality and dirt life. The ancient Egypt and China civilization succumbed to primitive tribes and all their advances were forgotten. Middle ages Muslim renaissance in Central Asia was destroyed by primitive Arab nomad tribes and so on.
I was in Egypt and this is not the worst country in Middle East. This is a mess. Sure they have different culture but the value of human live and dignity of man and woman is last on the list after religion and power to be, money, and ego. They have ways to go. Sure they have some bright and companionable people as individually they are not different from any other nations but overall they have a long way to go to build the public society which made for the benefit of the people not Mullahs and politicians.

I do find that kind of talk inherently racist- the whole western societies being more 'civilized' (i.e. superior) myth has lead to the greatest atrocities in history. Honestly where do the holocaust, the dropping of the atom bomb, slavery and racial segregation fit on 'the hierarchy of civilization?'. And the part I've put in bold in your comments could be said about people in America. A lot of people are more interested in money than treating their fellow human beings with dignity.

The problem is you're comparing you're idealized, non-existent view of your own society onto the worst, most exaggerated excesses of another. In reality, we live in a society in which people kill other people for money, racism, drug addiction and because their partner cheated on them! You look at the middle east on the news and all they show is the people demonstrating angrily, you don't see the other elements of society where people are at home getting on with their own lives.

People are pretty much the same everywhere, and I just think it's unhealthy when you start talking about one group being superior, especially when based on beliefs that they don't actually hold or adhere to.

I never said that people in the West are superior. People do same bad things everywhere. I am looking at the society as a whole from the results of their collective being.
Do you really believe that live in Middle East is more secure, average folks have more freedom and opportunities in live, are on average better off financially, have more access to advances of culture, science, medicine, entertainment, sports? What about stoning woman, home violence, torcher, poisoning girls to deny them access to education, beheadings, suicide bombings, massacres of any other cast/tribes, killing of infidels only because they believe in same God called by other name? What about resolving debates by violence and destruction which going on now. Is this civilized? Is this civilized in the specific "Islam culture" terms or in general?
What the current Middle East Islam culture brought to the world of man? Any great inventions? Any examples of greatness and compassion? If you know - then tell me the examples. Because I cannot see much. What this people are bringing to the human civilization that worth keeping and remembering?

And don’t take me wrong. The people in Islam world are on the journey. They are same as other people and want same things at the end.
But they have a long and bumpy road ahead of them to get from the mess they are in to better live.
I believe one day they will be there because there is no other alternative to self-destruction and irrelevance.