crzymdups wrote:
The successful teams in this league rarely turn over half their roster in a single summer. The Knicks do it every summer. Look at the real contenders from the past few years - Oklahoma, Miami, Boston, Lakers, San Antonio, Chicago - all these teams are pretty consistent.

It's nice that this round of turnover brought back Felton, Camby and Kurt, I guess. Felton should actually lend some consistency, though he's never played with Melo or Tyson... or anyone on the team other than Amar'e, despite leaving a season and a half ago.

And Brewer is a really good pickup, he should replace everything Fields brought and then some. (Except consistency and continuity, but hey, who's counting)

I agree....We turn over our players every summer....Coaching staff, every two - three years. That’s because with each passing year, Dolan is feeling more and more pressure to win now, and will try to buy his way to a championship, instead of building your talent within. The fans used to be the same way, but now I think they / we understand that you can also build a team through the draft and continue to be a contender like the Giants.....

But aside from all that, my response was really on chemistry, which has been our biggest hurdle every year. The reason is we usually turn our roster over with offensive players and role models with no offensive game. When you keep a core of offensive scorers and shooters, but add defensive vets like Kidd, Camby, Kurt and Brewer....You don't have to worry too much about chemistry.

Defense is defense, it doesn't matter on which scheme you are used to. If you can stop your man, and have the IQ to help your teammates, and have the vet leadership to hold each other accountable.....Chemistry will not be our biggest hurdle.

Our problem will be vet rotation. Sometimes when you go from having a limited # of players you trust, to now having 12-13 players you can count on in crunch time....it makes it difficult for Woodson, and most of the games we lose will fall hard on his shoulders. The older vets (speaking from experience unfortunately) will take longer to warm up during the game. But once they are warmed up, it's hard to just set down and come back in, warm again (u tighten up quick when sitting too long). Older guys would rather play longer minutes, because once you are warm, you don't feel any pain (for example, Kidd will be most affective playing long minutes in the 4th to close out the game. That’s why he made that statement about playing in the 4th quarter).....You only feel pain when you are pulled in and out of the game too many times. That’s going to be our problem. Some of our vets will have to play heavy minutes to impact the game....Others may have to sit or skip a few games to recover, and this could cause some controversy if we are losing.

blkexec wrote:
Our problem will be vet rotation. Sometimes when you go from having a limited # of players you trust, to now having 12-13 players you can count on in crunch time....it makes it difficult for Woodson, and most of the games we lose will fall hard on his shoulders. The older vets (speaking from experience unfortunately) will take longer to warm up during the game. But once they are warmed up, it's hard to just set down and come back in, warm again (u tighten up quick when sitting too long).

You Sit. You Ride The Bike.

crzymdups wrote:

TheloniusMonk wrote:^^^^^Funny you say real contenders don't turn over half their roster in a single summer and then bring up the Miami Heat.....funny.

Raymond Felton also played with J.R. Smith and Marcus Camby btw.

You're confusing building a team versus keeping a group of players together.

They are different.

The core of Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka has been together for 3-4 years. No major changes this summer outside of a draft pick.

Wade, Bosh, Lebron, Haslem, Miller, etc have been together SINCE they built the team for two years. Their only major change this summer was to add Ray Allen

Kobe, Bynum, Gasol, have been together for five years, the only major turnover in their roster this summer was to add Nash.

The Spurs core has been together for ten + years, but their immediate group has been together 2 or 3 years in a row now. You saw last year how that group of players gelled and played better than they were.

The Celtics core has been together since 2007. They lost Perkins and Allen for financial reasons, but have made an effort to win with the same group.

The longest tenured Knick is Amar'e from 2010 - of the players who finished the season 2010-2011 season, only Melo and Amar'e remain. They have been turning over the roster constantly.

It's just not the recipe for winning teams. You can't win in the playoffs unless you know each other and know how to play together.

Mister earl used to preach this before becoming obsessed with proving this new point right. Que sera.

You missed my point. The Heat flipped the entire roster (with the exception of Wade and Haslem) in the summer of 2010 and went directly to the finals. Point blank. And as a matter of fact, Haslem was injured so the only tie over was Wade himself. Period. This is why using the Heat as an example doesn't work for your theory.

misterearl wrote:... Maestro

There is no way that the the dearly departed free agents can compare, skill set for skill set, with the new acquisitions on this revised roster.
The six holdovers (Carmelo, Amar'e, Chandler, Shumpert, Novak and JR Smith) loved playing for former Knicks player Mike Woodson and had his back as they went 18-6, a dramatic turnaround from Mike D'Antoni. You think they want to play for anyone else? Not really.

Carmelo and Tyson are bonding in London under the tutelage of the best basketball minds on the planet. What better way to stay in shape than to represent your beloved country in The Olympics? Patriotism anyone?

Ray Felton and Amar'e are texting each other in between Stoudemire's crash-tutorial with Hakeem Olajuwon. Ray is happy to be home and is driven to prove he is a winner. He and Amar'e were having big fun before "the trade." Jason Kidd, who played with both Novak and Chandler in Dallas, is replaying what he learned about Kurt Thomas and Marcus Camby over two decades of competition. Kurt and Marcus had excellent chemistry the first time around in NY. That is a good thing. Jr Smith accepted less money to come home and replay his days in Denver with Camby and Carmelo. Our new guys have history.

Iman Shumpert, the most athletic perimeter defender this side of Ronnie Brewer, is rehabbing with Baron Davis, who will make someone a decent assistant coach. Brewer is unselfish and motivated. James White, who will be nailed to the pine, would be wise to live in 5:30 AM spin classes.

Then it gets interesting:

“The way I play is great to have wonder players like them (around me), I like to play for my teammates, give the ball in the right moments and try to exploit their talents. That’s how I think as a point guard. I’m not looking to score 30 points. Some days you need me to score more, I score. I understand basketball is a team sport. I want to play for my teammates, penetrate, dish and get assists. The way I play it is great to have great scorers around me like I have on the (Argentinian) national team.”

Pablo Prigioni brings something tangible that any NBA roster covets. Experienced leadership. He is rugged and unselfish. He is totally unpredictable. He is creative and intuitive. He is also ours.

What a great "gettin' up morning" in the long history of our highly dramatized and always entertaining roller coaster of a hoops franchise.

Did I mention we still have Steve Novak?

Good Post. This is very interesting and I agree with everything you've said. I also feel very good about this team.

misterearl wrote:
crzymdups - Mister earl used to preach this before becoming obsessed with proving this new point right.

Obsessed? Really? The only thing The Answer Man has ever preached is geting better during the off season.

“I’ve never had a coach ask me to do that.”

- Amar’e Stoudemire (when asked by coach Woodson at the end of the season to work on his post game over the summer.)

So, we're saying that Felton over Lin is an improvement? I think that's a downgrade and I like Felton. I think Ray will come in to camp in shape, but I've seen the way he plays at the end of games and in playoffs in Charlotte, Denver and obviously New York (though no playoffs in NY), and he looks overwhelmed and struggles to get off his shot or create shots for others. Lin excelled in those situations. It's a downgrade.

The team had zero chemistry before Lin went down. Amar'e and Melo have never had it. The one stretch where it looked like they did was when Woodson took over AND Lin was running the point. I like Woodson, nothing I said was a critique of Woodson. I just think the best possible Knicks team this season would have included Lin. And that would have been continuity, too.

Que sera. But Felton gets overwhelmed easily. I don't think his handle is as good as Lin's. He doesn't seem to have whatever that special thing is you need to excel in late game situations. Melo is the only player on the team who does. And we already know what it looks like when everybody in the building knows Melo is getting the ball. Too easy to stop. Too predictable.

With Lin you have two guys who might take the last shot, two guys who excel in those situations. Different dynamic. Potentially special dynamic. I'm not rooting against the team, just bummed that their best chance to beat the Heat and make meaningful noise in the playoffs walked out the door for silly reasons that would never happen in a quality organization.

How many did Novak score in Minnesota on the last possession with Lin setting him up.

I'm not really in the mood to dissect the rest point for point. I'm content to disagree with you.

Well, one last thing: hit the open man is your mantra and you tell me building around Melo is better than building around Melo AND Lin?

This team couldn't hit the open man to save it's life before Lin or after Lin.

It's funny to preach hit the open man... and demonize Lin's turnovers... which came from trying to find the open man (and more often than not succeeding)

Harping on his turnovers is a sad republican-like talking point. He had a lower turnover rate than Rondo and Nash.

De Nile ain't just a river in Egypt, but if it were a river apparently it'd run orange and blue.

CashMoney wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Earl, how many points did Novak score in the playoffs without Lin setting him up?

How many did Novak score in Minnesota on the last possession with Lin setting him up.

I'm not really in the mood to dissect the rest point for point. I'm content to disagree with you.

JR Smith fed Novak just as much as Lin. Miami did a good job of not leaving him open.

Are you saying that a majority of Novak's points were a result of a Lin assist?

The majority of Novak's points were the result of garbage time with JR Smith, building on leads Lin and Melo created.

But sure let's debate that forever, too.

crzymdups wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Earl, how many points did Novak score in the playoffs without Lin setting him up?

How many did Novak score in Minnesota on the last possession with Lin setting him up.

I'm not really in the mood to dissect the rest point for point. I'm content to disagree with you.

JR Smith fed Novak just as much as Lin. Miami did a good job of not leaving him open.

Are you saying that a majority of Novak's points were a result of a Lin assist?

The majority of Novak's points were the result of garbage time with JR Smith, building on leads Lin and Melo created.

But sure let's debate that forever, too.

no thanks....like talking to a brick wall.

crzymdups wrote:Harping on his turnovers is a sad republican-like talking point. He had a lower turnover rate than Rondo and Nash.

crzymdups - you made the original claim that Lin's "handle" was better than Raymond Felton. We shall see on December 17.

Forget the turnover ratio. If you are claiming Lin over Rondo you are crazier than Daffy Duck's cousin Duane.

Mark your calendar.

CashMoney wrote:
AST/TO Ratio
Rondo 3.21
Nash 2.90
Lin 1.71 Tied for 51st in the league with Evan Turner

My bad I screwed your boy out of .71.

Turnover rate per game is almost identical between the 3 but Lin also averaged only 26.9 minutes per game and played 27 less games than Nash and 18 less than Rondo.

Assists per 48 minutes Lin #13 in the league at 11 right ahead of BARON DAVIS who was 14th at 10.9

Felton AST/TO RATIO 2.29
Turovers PG - 2.8 compared to Lin's 3.61
Assists per 48 M - 9.8

Lin has a better handle? The above says differently.

Just once CashMoney, when the evidence, arithmetic and detailed research point to a conclusion that catches someone in a rundown, it would be cool to read someone say, "you know something my good man, you have a point there, you have opened my eyes to the truth."

Just once.

Nice work.

misterearl wrote:Just Once

CashMoney wrote:
AST/TO Ratio
Rondo 3.21
Nash 2.90
Lin 1.71 Tied for 51st in the league with Evan Turner

My bad I screwed your boy out of .71.

Turnover rate per game is almost identical between the 3 but Lin also averaged only 26.9 minutes per game and played 27 less games than Nash and 18 less than Rondo.

Assists per 48 minutes Lin #13 in the league at 11 right ahead of BARON DAVIS who was 14th at 10.9

Felton AST/TO RATIO 2.29
Turovers PG - 2.8 compared to Lin's 3.61
Assists per 48 M - 9.8

Lin has a better handle? The above says differently.

Just once CashMoney, when the evidence, arithmetic and detailed research point to a conclusion that catches someone in a rundown, it would be cool to read someone say, "you know something my good man, you have a point there, you have opened my eyes to the truth."

Just once.

Nice work.

Thanks and it would be.