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Youth is overrated
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CashMoney
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7/27/2012  10:40 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
CashMoney wrote:
ShellTopAdidas wrote:
VCoug wrote:The thing about the draft vs free agency vs trades is that the draft is usually the only way to get a player you can build a championship-caliber team around. What happened two years ago, with all the talent that switched teams, is really unusual. Usually, players of that caliber only switch teams at the end of their careers, like Kevin Garnett, or when a player demands a trade, which doesn't happen as often as some people think. Also, by trading for a player you're giving up assets that will take time to replace, using up valuable years of a veteran player's career.

If you look at most of the championship teams over the last 30 years, usually, most of their best players were drafted by that team: the Lakers' Magic, Worthy, Kobe, and Bynum; the Celtics' Bird, McHale, Pierce and Rondo; the Isiah/Dumars Pistons; the Jordan/Pippen/Grant Bulls; Olajuwon's Rockets; the Duncan/Robinson/Manu/Parker Spurs; Wade's Heat; and Nowitzki's Mavs. There's no surefire way to build a championship team, and the draft is always a crapshoot, but it's usually the only way to get one of these players.


We don't keep any draft pics.around long enough to see if they'd ever amount to anything.

We've drafted 2 all star playes in the last 26 years.


You can't draft all-stars when you don't draft players.
I think you can count on zero hands the number of teams in my lifetime that won championships without the draft playing a critical role.

We've drafted plenty of players. They just happen to suck more often than not.

The draft always plays a critical role. You either are able to draft a super star or use those players that you drafted as trade pieces to get other players. Sometime a few drafted players are good role players for the team. Other times those players are good role players for other teams.

Blue & Orange 4 Life!
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CashMoney
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7/27/2012  10:43 PM
VCoug wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
CashMoney wrote:
ShellTopAdidas wrote:
VCoug wrote:The thing about the draft vs free agency vs trades is that the draft is usually the only way to get a player you can build a championship-caliber team around. What happened two years ago, with all the talent that switched teams, is really unusual. Usually, players of that caliber only switch teams at the end of their careers, like Kevin Garnett, or when a player demands a trade, which doesn't happen as often as some people think. Also, by trading for a player you're giving up assets that will take time to replace, using up valuable years of a veteran player's career.

If you look at most of the championship teams over the last 30 years, usually, most of their best players were drafted by that team: the Lakers' Magic, Worthy, Kobe, and Bynum; the Celtics' Bird, McHale, Pierce and Rondo; the Isiah/Dumars Pistons; the Jordan/Pippen/Grant Bulls; Olajuwon's Rockets; the Duncan/Robinson/Manu/Parker Spurs; Wade's Heat; and Nowitzki's Mavs. There's no surefire way to build a championship team, and the draft is always a crapshoot, but it's usually the only way to get one of these players.


We don't keep any draft pics.around long enough to see if they'd ever amount to anything.

We've drafted 2 all star playes in the last 26 years.


You can't draft all-stars when you don't draft players.
I think you can count on zero hands the number of teams in my lifetime that won championships without the draft playing a critical role.

I hate to bring them up because that was such a weird season and Finals, but the 2004 Detroit Pistons were built almost exclusively through free agency and trades. Offhand, I can only think of two players that were drafted onto that team: Tayshaun Prince and Darko.

You just missed one....Mehmet Okur.

Blue & Orange 4 Life!
VCoug
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7/27/2012  10:53 PM
CashMoney wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
CashMoney wrote:
ShellTopAdidas wrote:
VCoug wrote:The thing about the draft vs free agency vs trades is that the draft is usually the only way to get a player you can build a championship-caliber team around. What happened two years ago, with all the talent that switched teams, is really unusual. Usually, players of that caliber only switch teams at the end of their careers, like Kevin Garnett, or when a player demands a trade, which doesn't happen as often as some people think. Also, by trading for a player you're giving up assets that will take time to replace, using up valuable years of a veteran player's career.

If you look at most of the championship teams over the last 30 years, usually, most of their best players were drafted by that team: the Lakers' Magic, Worthy, Kobe, and Bynum; the Celtics' Bird, McHale, Pierce and Rondo; the Isiah/Dumars Pistons; the Jordan/Pippen/Grant Bulls; Olajuwon's Rockets; the Duncan/Robinson/Manu/Parker Spurs; Wade's Heat; and Nowitzki's Mavs. There's no surefire way to build a championship team, and the draft is always a crapshoot, but it's usually the only way to get one of these players.


We don't keep any draft pics.around long enough to see if they'd ever amount to anything.

We've drafted 2 all star playes in the last 26 years.


You can't draft all-stars when you don't draft players.
I think you can count on zero hands the number of teams in my lifetime that won championships without the draft playing a critical role.

I hate to bring them up because that was such a weird season and Finals, but the 2004 Detroit Pistons were built almost exclusively through free agency and trades. Offhand, I can only think of two players that were drafted onto that team: Tayshaun Prince and Darko.

You just missed one....Mehmet Okur.

Good call.

I should mention, teams shouldn't be looking to replicate that team. Even though they won a championship that's a team without any real historical precedent and they beat a Lakers squad that was imploding.

Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
ramtour420
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7/28/2012  12:56 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
ramtour420 wrote:It doesn't pay to draft your core,most of the time its a fail. But the few times that it does work out , the whole future of the team can be changed with one player. Unless you are a crappy organization then it doesn't even matter.

I think that is misguided. Take the top 3 players on each of the final four NBA teams this year. 9 of the 12 players were drafted by their teams. My guess is that's similar to the percentage for any given year.

Wow. You totally destroyed my point with the appropriate stats. Um, let me try to recover a bit. Draft not only pays, but is the most efficient way to get talent(that's the way that it is designed to be).However, only a select few teams can really take advantage, and that advantage is based on luck just as much. So with luck being such a significant factor, its easy to assume that draft is a crapshoot. Just to throw a wrench into your statistics, out of 4 teams in the last finals we have the Heat with the historic addition of LeBron and that other guy. And the final 4 includes the Celtics, who made winning a chip seem like a foregone conclusion after getting their pieces together with trades and FA signings. Yes PP was drafted and eventually he got lucky to play with KG , Ray Allen and Rondo (who was a flash of brilliant drafting OR a lucky break, you take your pick).

Either way, one cannot build a champion without draft , but more importantly its the organization that makes a difference, which was really my original point.

Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
knicks1248
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7/28/2012  1:37 AM
ramtour420 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
ramtour420 wrote:It doesn't pay to draft your core,most of the time its a fail. But the few times that it does work out , the whole future of the team can be changed with one player. Unless you are a crappy organization then it doesn't even matter.

I think that is misguided. Take the top 3 players on each of the final four NBA teams this year. 9 of the 12 players were drafted by their teams. My guess is that's similar to the percentage for any given year.

Wow. You totally destroyed my point with the appropriate stats. Um, let me try to recover a bit. Draft not only pays, but is the most efficient way to get talent(that's the way that it is designed to be).However, only a select few teams can really take advantage, and that advantage is based on luck just as much. So with luck being such a significant factor, its easy to assume that draft is a crapshoot. Just to throw a wrench into your statistics, out of 4 teams in the last finals we have the Heat with the historic addition of LeBron and that other guy. And the final 4 includes the Celtics, who made winning a chip seem like a foregone conclusion after getting their pieces together with trades and FA signings. Yes PP was drafted and eventually he got lucky to play with KG , Ray Allen and Rondo (who was a flash of brilliant drafting OR a lucky break, you take your pick).

Either way, one cannot build a champion without draft , but more importantly its the organization that makes a difference, which was really my original point.

it is called a lottery,

ES
TymeLessKnicks
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7/28/2012  7:04 AM
Besides the lottery (you can argue this) the draft is more skill than luck.
Had enough Melo?
Nalod
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7/28/2012  7:43 AM
Drafts and picks are statistical.

Some will bust. Some teams are really good at it, and some are not.

Luck factors in many times.

So to say the 4th pick is bust and thus picks are "over rated" is too broad a statement.

Bonn1997
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7/28/2012  8:10 AM
ramtour420 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
ramtour420 wrote:It doesn't pay to draft your core,most of the time its a fail. But the few times that it does work out , the whole future of the team can be changed with one player. Unless you are a crappy organization then it doesn't even matter.

I think that is misguided. Take the top 3 players on each of the final four NBA teams this year. 9 of the 12 players were drafted by their teams. My guess is that's similar to the percentage for any given year.

Wow. You totally destroyed my point with the appropriate stats. Um, let me try to recover a bit. Draft not only pays, but is the most efficient way to get talent(that's the way that it is designed to be).However, only a select few teams can really take advantage, and that advantage is based on luck just as much. So with luck being such a significant factor, its easy to assume that draft is a crapshoot. Just to throw a wrench into your statistics, out of 4 teams in the last finals we have the Heat with the historic addition of LeBron and that other guy. And the final 4 includes the Celtics, who made winning a chip seem like a foregone conclusion after getting their pieces together with trades and FA signings. Yes PP was drafted and eventually he got lucky to play with KG , Ray Allen and Rondo (who was a flash of brilliant drafting OR a lucky break, you take your pick).

Either way, one cannot build a champion without draft , but more importantly its the organization that makes a difference, which was really my original point.


I agree with that. Prior to the new CBA, wealthy teams could buy more picks but now that's out of the picture.
Knixkik
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7/28/2012  8:29 AM
SupremeCommander wrote:teams that draft well have an insane advantage. for example, Derrick Rose winning an MVP on a rookie contract is great value

Teams that get lucky you mean. The bulls won the lottery to get Rose.

RonRon
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7/28/2012  12:19 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/28/2012  12:22 PM
it depends which side you want to argue with, the teams that had success in the draft or the teams that failed with the draft.

But looking at last years playoff teams, majority of the teams had home grown talent on their roster.

If Suns gave Eric Gordon a max contract, I think they will be going for Harden via trade or a max offer in the summer as a RFA.
They can offer Wesley Johnson and multiple draft picks with the picks they have acquired or they can be part of the Dwight Howard sweepstakes and still offer another near max contract in the summer with all their cap space they have in the summer.

knickscity
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7/28/2012  12:42 PM
The discussion could go either way.

The majority of champions have some drafted players on it, and key acquisitions as well.

Kobe doesn't win his last two without Pau, just like he don't win the first three without Shaq.

Wade doesn't win without Shaq, no different than he doesn't win without LeBron.

The Spurs imo are absolutely the exception.

smackeddog
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7/28/2012  12:48 PM
Knixkik wrote:Everyone gets fixated on the OKC Thunder and think building thru the draft is the way to go. Why are teams so focused on that? Had the Thunder had the 1st pick instead of the 2nd and picked Oden, they would not be what they are today. What's another team that successfully built thru the draft, the Spurs? They won the Tim Duncan lottery and found a could of late round gems. Why do teams keep trying to do it? Because they don't have any other option. How is building thru the draft working for Charlotte, Washington, Toronto, Sacramento, Golden State, Detroit, etc?

Completely agree. Speaking of OKC, Ironically, Walsh really wanted to draft Westbrook, but he ended up getting picked slightly higher than forecast, by OKC (wasn't he considered a good defender but poor on offence ? Ha!). The thing is, if he was a Knick, the media and fans would have hated him by now (due to his attitude and play in the 2011 playoffs).

Bonn1997
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7/28/2012  12:59 PM
RonRon wrote:it depends which side you want to argue with, the teams that had success in the draft or the teams that failed with the draft.

But looking at last years playoff teams, majority of the teams had home grown talent on their roster.

If Suns gave Eric Gordon a max contract, I think they will be going for Harden via trade or a max offer in the summer as a RFA.
They can offer Wesley Johnson and multiple draft picks with the picks they have acquired or they can be part of the Dwight Howard sweepstakes and still offer another near max contract in the summer with all their cap space they have in the summer.


Most strategies fail for most teams. Failure is not unique to any strategy and is not that informative. The only side that is informative is rare set of teams that succeed.
yellowboy90
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7/28/2012  3:35 PM
Home grown or not what team won a ship with a young core that has an avg of less than 7 seasons played in the NBA?
knickscity
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7/28/2012  3:44 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/28/2012  3:44 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:Home grown or not what team won a ship with a young core that has an avg of less than 7 seasons played in the NBA?

Nice attempt to eliminate the Lakers .

The Spurs fit this mold as well.

Nalod
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7/28/2012  4:23 PM
Lakers don't get Pau without drafting Marc.

Knicks don't get Melo without Gallo.......

Teams can draft well and they become assets either for play or trade.

Youth is overrated

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