Knicksfan wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:

VCoug wrote:Lin didn't pull anything! We never even offered him a contract. Essentially, we told him to go out and get the best deal he could with the expectation that we would match it. After the Landry and Asik deals it was obvious that some other team could offer a contract with a poison pill in years 3 and 4 and we still didn't offer a contract. Lin and Houston did exactly what we wanted them to.

We allowed him and his agent to test the market and get Lins market value. What they signed, and nobody was putting a gun on their heads to sign it, isn't his market value but a poison pill. The first rumored offer was ok, but if as media is sugesting they upped it to discourage the Knicks, what does that say about our supposed franchise point guard? Id say he doesn't want to be here or is simply out for the money, Knicks contending status be damned. And we aren't even talking about a star, but a young guy that while he has potential, is nowhere near to be worth that as a player. You may bring contracts and offcourt stuff, but a subpar year and everything is gone. And lets remember he will ce coming off injury and surgery.

As far as I can tell it's the only offer he got. I know we didn't offer anything and I'm not aware of any other team extending an offer either. What is he supposed to do, not sign any contract for next year?

Need to exaggerate to get a point across? You think we wouldn't have made an offer after the Rockets one? As far as I understand, testing the market is about getting offers to set that, your market. Not necessarily accepting the first offer available.

Also take into consideration what just happened here. One offer was rumored to be made, the one we all liked. Same happened with the Camby deal. Then the Camby deal is made exactly as speculated. Now, Knicks get no offer sheet until today and all of a sudden, after it was known the Knicks would match, Houston changes its offer to poison pill status. Think it just happened by chance? While there is no certainty of this, I believe the first offer existed. The first deal was analyzed as one that wouldn't hurt NY and pay Lin what he deserved. Think Lin doesn't know this? Think Lin doesn't know signing this new version makes it harder for NY to match and build a better team in the future?

You can easily speculate that Lin doesn't want NY to match or he just wants to.cash in, his next team's sake be damned.Think this was the only offer Lin could've accepted? Don't make it like poor Lin has no clue about what's happening and he just accepted the only offer he got because things aren't like that. He could've gotten the offer and tried to negotiate a different deal wit NY. But Lin knows how this deal hurts NY and how possible it is they wont match. That's what's sfary. Lin knows and allowed this to happen. He is smart. Remember he went to Harvard. ;)

The NBA rules require you to sign the offer sheet before an offer can be matched. You are now making the case that Lin doesn't want to paly in NY so he wants more money to hurt NY which is impossible if he stays with Houston. Sure- whatever that means.

joec32033 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

VCoug wrote:Lin didn't pull anything! We never even offered him a contract. Essentially, we told him to go out and get the best deal he could with the expectation that we would match it. After the Landry and Asik deals it was obvious that some other team could offer a contract with a poison pill in years 3 and 4 and we still didn't offer a contract. Lin and Houston did exactly what we wanted them to.

Actually the Knicks did him a favor. We had a set amount we could offer him at Max (like 4 years 24 mil). But we can match any offer. The original offer sheet that was talked about was an extra $5 mil. We told him to get what he can and we will match it. Thing is no one possibly expected him to get an offer like this. Now the Rockets are well within their rights to change an unsigned offer. Lin is well within his rights to try and get more for something that is unsigned.

However this is dirty of BOTH Lin's camp and Houston. Regardless of Camby. What is the point of agreeing to an offer sheet? If the NBA allows this to stand, I bet within the next 5 years we will see a team agree to an offer sheet with a player to block a move (much like Toronto did) during the moratorium then withdraw said sheet when things have played out. I use the Fields thing as an example. This basically sets the precedent that verbal agreements mean nothing. Meaning now that moratorium means nothing. What if a player verbally agrees to an offer sheet then backs out before it is signed? The NBA is seriously playing a dangerous game here.

On a side note, you think the NBA and the Knicks have had enough of Lin? The NBA had to fight the whole Bird rights issue now they have a situation where Lin is smack dab in the middle of skirting the spirit of the CBA again. And the Knicks really did everything they could to get Lin as much money as they can- bird rights case and letting him get an offer higher then their Max they could have offered-if reports are correct about Lin's camp being the pushing force behind this-and he really stuck it up their ass.

I really may just let Lin walk. I wanted Lowery more if we could have got him. And honestly Jeremy will never be able to play his whole humble pie role again. I think the Rockets and Lin both hurt their word and dignity doing this.

All the reports I read say it was Houston that changed the offer since they have no point guards on their roster anymore. And again, what is Lin supposed to do? It's the only offer he received as far as I can tell. Why should Houston offer him a contract just so ites it more palatable for us to resig!n him

I am not disagreeing with anything you said. What I am saying is how this played out reeks of it being done wrong. There was nothing "wrong" with how Lebron left Cleveland. But it just didn't sit right with ALOT of people. Same thing here. And I don't think you can ignore the fact that an offer sheet was agreed to (verbally) and then changed. It renders the moratorium moot-and quite honestly a huge joke- if agreements and that is what a TON of players reached during this moratorium, and teams too, and they were not honored?

Exactly! An offer sheet was agreed by Houston and Lin. They see through the media that NY will match and here is where the dirty stuff kicks in. They not only change their offer to true poison pill status, but they do it a few days after NY finishes a few moves so it is harder for them to match the new offer. Where is Lin in all of This? He signed the new version with full knowledge this will make it even tougher for NY to match. Any way you see it, Houston and Lin look pretty bad.

I'm starting to miss Felton.

VCoug wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:

VCoug wrote:Lin didn't pull anything! We never even offered him a contract. Essentially, we told him to go out and get the best deal he could with the expectation that we would match it. After the Landry and Asik deals it was obvious that some other team could offer a contract with a poison pill in years 3 and 4 and we still didn't offer a contract. Lin and Houston did exactly what we wanted them to.

We allowed him and his agent to test the market and get Lins market value. What they signed, and nobody was putting a gun on their heads to sign it, isn't his market value but a poison pill. The first rumored offer was ok, but if as media is sugesting they upped it to discourage the Knicks, what does that say about our supposed franchise point guard? Id say he doesn't want to be here or is simply out for the money, Knicks contending status be damned. And we aren't even talking about a star, but a young guy that while he has potential, is nowhere near to be worth that as a player. You may bring contracts and offcourt stuff, but a subpar year and everything is gone. And lets remember he will ce coming off injury and surgery.

As far as I can tell it's the only offer he got. I know we didn't offer anything and I'm not aware of any other team extending an offer either. What is he supposed to do, not sign any contract for next year?

Need to exaggerate to get a point across? You think we wouldn't have made an offer after the Rockets one? As far as I understand, testing the market is about getting offers to set that, your market. Not necessarily accepting the first offer available.

Also take into consideration what just happened here. One offer was rumored to be made, the one we all liked. Same happened with the Camby deal. Then the Camby deal is made exactly as speculated. Now, Knicks get no offer sheet until today and all of a sudden, after it was known the Knicks would match, Houston changes its offer to poison pill status. Think it just happened by chance? While there is no certainty of this, I believe the first offer existed. The first deal was analyzed as one that wouldn't hurt NY and pay Lin what he deserved. Think Lin doesn't know this? Think Lin doesn't know signing this new version makes it harder for NY to match and build a better team in the future?

You can easily speculate that Lin doesn't want NY to match or he just wants to.cash in, his next team's sake be damned.Think this was the only offer Lin could've accepted? Don't make it like poor Lin has no clue about what's happening and he just accepted the only offer he got because things aren't like that. He could've gotten the offer and tried to negotiate a different deal wit NY. But Lin knows how this deal hurts NY and how possible it is they wont match. That's what's sfary. Lin knows and allowed this to happen. He is smart. Remember he went to Harvard. ;)

We only had one real offer to make, around $24M over 4 years. If we wanted him to take that we should have offered it to him; we didn't. And why is Houston under some obligation to give him a contract that we want to match? They want to sign him because they have no point guard so they changed their offer to something that they'd hope we won't match. There's nothing untoward going on it's just business.

Again, we allowed him to test the market in good will. We could've offered him that ckntract but we let them test the market, as Lin's agent surely wanted.

Second, who has said Houston has to offer him a contract we can match? You are twisting the issue to your advantage. Most around here, me included, jave an issue on an offer sheet that was agreed to and then, once it was evident the team would match, was intentionally changed for that not to happen and at a time where the other team had made moves that would make it harder for the team to match a new poison pill offer.

I know you are trying to see it from Houstons perspective and also Lins, but if you really think about it, you will see there is no way Lin and Houston can look good in this situation.

Think about this: would the Knicks have done exactly the moves they already did and actually finished them if they had know Houstons offer sheet was this poison pill? I think they would've done a few things differently and Houston knows that.

Oh, and if Houston is put of point guards, they have nobody else to blame but themselves.

VCoug wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:

VCoug wrote:Lin didn't pull anything! We never even offered him a contract. Essentially, we told him to go out and get the best deal he could with the expectation that we would match it. After the Landry and Asik deals it was obvious that some other team could offer a contract with a poison pill in years 3 and 4 and we still didn't offer a contract. Lin and Houston did exactly what we wanted them to.

We allowed him and his agent to test the market and get Lins market value. What they signed, and nobody was putting a gun on their heads to sign it, isn't his market value but a poison pill. The first rumored offer was ok, but if as media is sugesting they upped it to discourage the Knicks, what does that say about our supposed franchise point guard? Id say he doesn't want to be here or is simply out for the money, Knicks contending status be damned. And we aren't even talking about a star, but a young guy that while he has potential, is nowhere near to be worth that as a player. You may bring contracts and offcourt stuff, but a subpar year and everything is gone. And lets remember he will ce coming off injury and surgery.

As far as I can tell it's the only offer he got. I know we didn't offer anything and I'm not aware of any other team extending an offer either. What is he supposed to do, not sign any contract for next year?

Need to exaggerate to get a point across? You think we wouldn't have made an offer after the Rockets one? As far as I understand, testing the market is about getting offers to set that, your market. Not necessarily accepting the first offer available.

Also take into consideration what just happened here. One offer was rumored to be made, the one we all liked. Same happened with the Camby deal. Then the Camby deal is made exactly as speculated. Now, Knicks get no offer sheet until today and all of a sudden, after it was known the Knicks would match, Houston changes its offer to poison pill status. Think it just happened by chance? While there is no certainty of this, I believe the first offer existed. The first deal was analyzed as one that wouldn't hurt NY and pay Lin what he deserved. Think Lin doesn't know this? Think Lin doesn't know signing this new version makes it harder for NY to match and build a better team in the future?

You can easily speculate that Lin doesn't want NY to match or he just wants to.cash in, his next team's sake be damned.Think this was the only offer Lin could've accepted? Don't make it like poor Lin has no clue about what's happening and he just accepted the only offer he got because things aren't like that. He could've gotten the offer and tried to negotiate a different deal wit NY. But Lin knows how this deal hurts NY and how possible it is they wont match. That's what's sfary. Lin knows and allowed this to happen. He is smart. Remember he went to Harvard. ;)

We only had one real offer to make, around $24M over 4 years. If we wanted him to take that we should have offered it to him; we didn't. And why is Houston under some obligation to give him a contract that we want to match? They want to sign him because they have no point guard so they changed their offer to something that they'd hope we won't match. There's nothing untoward going on it's just business.

Again, we allowed him to test the market in good will. We could've offered him that ckntract but we let them test the market, as Lin's agent surely wanted.

Second, who has said Houston has to offer him a contract we can match? You are twisting the issue to your advantage. Most around here, me included, jave an issue on an offer sheet that was agreed to and then, once it was evident the team would match, was intentionally changed for that not to happen and at a time where the other team had made moves that would make it harder for the team to match a new poison pill offer.

I know you are trying to see it from Houstons perspective and also Lins, but if you really think about it, you will see there is no way Lin and Houston can look good in this situation.

Think about this: would the Knicks have done exactly the moves they already did and actually finished them if they had know Houstons offer sheet was this poison pill? I think they would've done a few things differently and Houston knows that.

Oh, and if Houston is put of point guards, they have nobody else to blame but themselves.

You're saying Houston should have offered him a contract that makes it easier for us to match:

Most around here, me included, jave an issue on an offer sheet that was agreed to and then, once it was evident the team would match, was intentionally changed for that not to happen and at a time where the other team had made moves that would make it harder for the team to match a new poison pill offer.

And I'll repeat what I said on the other thread. Three years from now we already have $61M tied up in Melo, Amare, and Tyson. Novak, Kidd, Camby, and Shumpert's contracts will be anoter $12M to $13M. Lin's contract isn't going to affect whether we're over the luxury tax threshold or not, we will be. It only affects how much luxury tax Dolan will have to pay.

About your last point, it's not the luxury tax people are concerned about. Clearly that bridge was crossed a long time ago.
The problem is, as someone else pointed out earlier, according to the new CBA if you are more than a certain level above the cap, there are further restrictions on how much money you are allowed to use for your exceptions and you can no longer do sign an trades etc... So this basically ruins our roster flexibility in a crucial year when we expect our other big contracts will be coming off the books. So the fact that its a 3 year deal and $15 mil hurts us beyond just the luxury tax.
So essentially, Lin's contract will push us over that upper limit.

VCoug wrote:Lin didn't pull anything! We never even offered him a contract. Essentially, we told him to go out and get the best deal he could with the expectation that we would match it. After the Landry and Asik deals it was obvious that some other team could offer a contract with a poison pill in years 3 and 4 and we still didn't offer a contract. Lin and Houston did exactly what we wanted them to.

You see how they keep ignoring the facts and posting and reposting the same spin over and over again. The new contract makes ZERO difference to our ability to sign players but the MElo brigade has found a way to get rid of Lin. They ain't giving up easy.

VCoug wrote:

MinsHeartsReezy wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:

VCoug wrote:Lin didn't pull anything! We never even offered him a contract. Essentially, we told him to go out and get the best deal he could with the expectation that we would match it. After the Landry and Asik deals it was obvious that some other team could offer a contract with a poison pill in years 3 and 4 and we still didn't offer a contract. Lin and Houston did exactly what we wanted them to.

We allowed him and his agent to test the market and get Lins market value. What they signed, and nobody was putting a gun on their heads to sign it, isn't his market value but a poison pill. The first rumored offer was ok, but if as media is sugesting they upped it to discourage the Knicks, what does that say about our supposed franchise point guard? Id say he doesn't want to be here or is simply out for the money, Knicks contending status be damned. And we aren't even talking about a star, but a young guy that while he has potential, is nowhere near to be worth that as a player. You may bring contracts and offcourt stuff, but a subpar year and everything is gone. And lets remember he will ce coming off injury and surgery.

As far as I can tell it's the only offer he got. I know we didn't offer anything and I'm not aware of any other team extending an offer either. What is he supposed to do, not sign any contract for next year?

Need to exaggerate to get a point across? You think we wouldn't have made an offer after the Rockets one? As far as I understand, testing the market is about getting offers to set that, your market. Not necessarily accepting the first offer available.

Also take into consideration what just happened here. One offer was rumored to be made, the one we all liked. Same happened with the Camby deal. Then the Camby deal is made exactly as speculated. Now, Knicks get no offer sheet until today and all of a sudden, after it was known the Knicks would match, Houston changes its offer to poison pill status. Think it just happened by chance? While there is no certainty of this, I believe the first offer existed. The first deal was analyzed as one that wouldn't hurt NY and pay Lin what he deserved. Think Lin doesn't know this? Think Lin doesn't know signing this new version makes it harder for NY to match and build a better team in the future?

You can easily speculate that Lin doesn't want NY to match or he just wants to.cash in, his next team's sake be damned.Think this was the only offer Lin could've accepted? Don't make it like poor Lin has no clue about what's happening and he just accepted the only offer he got because things aren't like that. He could've gotten the offer and tried to negotiate a different deal wit NY. But Lin knows how this deal hurts NY and how possible it is they wont match. That's what's sfary. Lin knows and allowed this to happen. He is smart. Remember he went to Harvard. ;)

We only had one real offer to make, around $24M over 4 years. If we wanted him to take that we should have offered it to him; we didn't. And why is Houston under some obligation to give him a contract that we want to match? They want to sign him because they have no point guard so they changed their offer to something that they'd hope we won't match. There's nothing untoward going on it's just business.

Again, we allowed him to test the market in good will. We could've offered him that ckntract but we let them test the market, as Lin's agent surely wanted.

Second, who has said Houston has to offer him a contract we can match? You are twisting the issue to your advantage. Most around here, me included, jave an issue on an offer sheet that was agreed to and then, once it was evident the team would match, was intentionally changed for that not to happen and at a time where the other team had made moves that would make it harder for the team to match a new poison pill offer.

I know you are trying to see it from Houstons perspective and also Lins, but if you really think about it, you will see there is no way Lin and Houston can look good in this situation.

Think about this: would the Knicks have done exactly the moves they already did and actually finished them if they had know Houstons offer sheet was this poison pill? I think they would've done a few things differently and Houston knows that.

Oh, and if Houston is put of point guards, they have nobody else to blame but themselves.

You're saying Houston should have offered him a contract that makes it easier for us to match:

Most around here, me included, jave an issue on an offer sheet that was agreed to and then, once it was evident the team would match, was intentionally changed for that not to happen and at a time where the other team had made moves that would make it harder for the team to match a new poison pill offer.

And I'll repeat what I said on the other thread. Three years from now we already have $61M tied up in Melo, Amare, and Tyson. Novak, Kidd, Camby, and Shumpert's contracts will be anoter $12M to $13M. Lin's contract isn't going to affect whether we're over the luxury tax threshold or not, we will be. It only affects how much luxury tax Dolan will have to pay.

About your last point, it's not the luxury tax people are concerned about. Clearly that bridge was crossed a long time ago.
The problem is, as someone else pointed out earlier, according to the new CBA if you are more than a certain level above the cap, there are further restrictions on how much money you are allowed to use for your exceptions and you can no longer do sign an trades etc... So this basically ruins our roster flexibility in a crucial year when we expect our other big contracts will be coming off the books. So the fact that its a 3 year deal and $15 mil hurts us beyond just the luxury tax.
So essentially, Lin's contract will push us over that upper limit.

I know and that's what I'm talking about. The salary cap is around $58M and the luxury tax, which is when those restrictions come into play, is around $74M. My point is that we'll be in the luxury tax pretty much no matter what and we'll be restricted in what we can offer free agents whether we sign Lin or not.

I'm certainly not an expert on the CBA so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I understood from earlier is that that it's not just a matter of being over the 74mil cutoff. Depending on how much over you are, there are increasing restrictions.

So you would be penalized and restricted more at 80 million than you would be at 76 million etc...

Is this correct?

VCoug wrote:

MinsHeartsReezy wrote:
I'm certainly not an expert on the CBA so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I understood from earlier is that that it's not just a matter of being over the 74mil cutoff. Depending on how much over you are, there are increasing restrictions.

So you would be penalized and restricted more at 80 million than you would be at 76 million etc...

Is this correct?

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q23

As far as I can tell there aren't any increased restrictions the further you are over the cap.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q21

There are more luxury taxes to pay the more you are over the cap but that's Dolan's money so who cares? We had around $100M just in salary for most of the Layden and Isiah eras and we were awful back then. I can't imaging that Dolan would get cheap now that we have a good team to pay.

There's a post on one of threads - it says if you are more than 4 million over the cap you only get a mini MLE, and can only sign players to 3 year contracts etc. in year three TYSON/ MELO/STAT puts us way past the 4 million apron do the "restrictions" apply at that point. Adding Lin to this DOES NOT add any additional restrictions. At least based on the rules set out on that post.

crzymdups wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

VCoug wrote:

MinsHeartsReezy wrote:
I'm certainly not an expert on the CBA so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I understood from earlier is that that it's not just a matter of being over the 74mil cutoff. Depending on how much over you are, there are increasing restrictions.

So you would be penalized and restricted more at 80 million than you would be at 76 million etc...

Is this correct?

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q23

As far as I can tell there aren't any increased restrictions the further you are over the cap.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q21

There are more luxury taxes to pay the more you are over the cap but that's Dolan's money so who cares? We had around $100M just in salary for most of the Layden and Isiah eras and we were awful back then. I can't imaging that Dolan would get cheap now that we have a good team to pay.

There's a post on one of threads - it says if you are more than 4 million over the cap you only get a mini MLE, and can only sign players to 3 year contracts etc. in year three TYSON/ MELO/STAT puts us way past the 4 million apron do the "restrictions" apply at that point. Adding Lin to this DOES NOT add any additional restrictions. At least based on the rules set out on that post.

this is accurate from what i've seen. adding lin, or for that matter lin and fields, makes no difference to the knicks cap. except it costs a lot of money.

Thanks for the clarification.