gunsnewing wrote:Its funny now everyone is killing Durant like they killed Melo when going up against the best player in the league Lebron. Killin Durant for not rebounding & scoring enough

Play some real defense, get more than 3 boards, and act like the scoring champ.

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:stupid.

When Melo learns to:
play defense
show up without baby fat
win a playoff series

We can talk about Melo being next.

When Amare stops acting like a ***** and show up playing defense and rebound like he was the next incarnation of Moses Malone than we can talk about winning a playoff series. As for Melo man up stop eating the Spanish food get off the couch and get to the gym.

Amare and his game have been deep in the playoffs... several times. Does his game has holes? Sure, but Ive seen Amare put up 25ppg in playoff series his team actually WON.

Ive SEEN a team built around Amare as the primary scorer and his 55% shooting go deep in the playoffs. Often.

I have to yet to see any evidence that Melo can be the same. Lets all pray he goes away or greatly changes how he plays basketball, else we can look to enjoy losing in the first round every year

nixluva wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Exactly man Melo led the team to an 18-6 record into the playoffs when we were out of it and surrendering a pick to houston.

Yet we're still below .500 in games he plays in!

Were the knicks every getting out of the 1st round with a broken down amare, gallo and dantoni?

Are you asking if the team could've gotten out of the 1st rd if they never traded for Melo? I think it's possible. You have to remember that the team had already at least achieved being a .500 team without Melo. It's not like things have been demonstrably better with him. Who knows how the team would've continued to develop if left alone?

To me that's not the issue. Melo is here and he's also a very difficult player to build a team around. Also some of us have really locked into this 18-6 thing and how Melo closed the season, but be careful. He's never played like he did during that short stretch for an entire season.

      MIN  FGM-FGA    FG%  3PM-3PA  3P%	 FTM-FTA  FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
April 36.9 11.3-22.8 .495  1.9-4.2 .460	 5.4-6.7 .813	7.3	3.6	0.4	1.1	3.1	2.5	29.8

SEASON	TEAM GP	GS MIN	FGM-A	   FG%	3PM-A	 3P%	FTM-A	FT%	OR   DR	  REB  AST  BLK  STL  PF  TO   PTS
'03-'04	DEN  82	82 36.5	7.6-17.9  .426	0.8-2.6	.322	5.0-6.4	.777	2.2  3.8  6.0  2.8  0.5	 1.2  2.7 3.0  21.0
'04-'05	DEN  75	75 34.8	7.1-16.4  .431	0.6-2.1	.266	6.1-7.6	.796	1.9  3.8  5.7  2.6  0.4	 0.9  3.1 3.0  20.8
'05-'06	DEN  80	80 36.8	9.4-19.6  .481	0.5-1.9	.243	7.2-8.9	.808	1.5  3.4  4.9  2.7  0.5	 1.1  2.9 2.7  26.5
'06-'07	DEN  65	65 38.2	10.6-22.4 .476	0.6-2.3	.268	7.1-8.7	.808	2.2  3.8  6.0  3.8  0.4	 1.2  3.1 3.6  28.9
'07-'08	DEN  77	77 36.4	9.5-19.2  .492	0.8-2.1	.354	6.0-7.7	.786	2.3  5.1  7.4  3.4  0.5	 1.3  3.3 3.3  25.7
'08-'09	DEN  66	66 34.5	8.1-18.3  .443	1.0-2.6	.371	5.6-7.1	.793	1.6  5.2  6.8  3.4  0.4	 1.1  3.0 3.0  22.8
'09-'10	DEN  69	69 38.2	10.0-21.8 .458	0.9-2.7	.316	7.4-8.9	.830	2.2  4.4  6.6  3.2  0.4	 1.3  3.3 3.0  28.2
'10-'11	DEN  50	50 35.5	8.7-19.3  .452	0.8-2.5	.333	6.9-8.3	.823	1.5  6.1  7.6  2.8  0.6	 0.9  2.7 2.8  25.2
'10-'11	NY   27	27 36.2	9.1-19.9  .461	2.0-4.6	.424	6.1-7.0	.872	1.5  5.2  6.7  3.0  0.6	 0.9  3.3 2.4  26.3
'11-'12	NY   55	55 34.1	8.0-18.6  .430	1.2-3.7	.335	5.4-6.7	.804	1.6  4.7  6.3  3.6  0.4	 1.1  2.8 2.6  22.6
Career	    646	646 36.2 8.8-19.3 .456	0.8-2.6	.322	6.3-7.8	.805	1.9  4.4  6.3  3.1  0.5	 1.1  3.0 3.0  24.7

Melo's career numbers are more of who he really is and I suspect that unless he makes a major change to his off season routine he'll stay about right where his career numbers are. So what we need is to figure out how to augment his game with players that can succeed despite his being a ball stopper. More half court players that fit into a style that is more grind it out than we've been in the last couple of years. I think adding even more defensive players along with some shooting and a couple more ISO capable players would make more sense.

IrishKnickFan wrote:

technomaster wrote:
I suppose the nuggets have been demonstrably better than they were before they traded melo?

nixluva wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Exactly man Melo led the team to an 18-6 record into the playoffs when we were out of it and surrendering a pick to houston.

Yet we're still below .500 in games he plays in!

Were the knicks every getting out of the 1st round with a broken down amare, gallo and dantoni?

Are you asking if the team could've gotten out of the 1st rd if they never traded for Melo? I think it's possible. You have to remember that the team had already at least achieved being a .500 team without Melo. It's not like things have been demonstrably better with him. Who knows how the team would've continued to develop if left alone?

To me that's not the issue. Melo is here and he's also a very difficult player to build a team around. Also some of us have really locked into this 18-6 thing and how Melo closed the season, but be careful. He's never played like he did during that short stretch for an entire season.

      MIN  FGM-FGA    FG%  3PM-3PA  3P%	 FTM-FTA  FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
April 36.9 11.3-22.8 .495  1.9-4.2 .460	 5.4-6.7 .813	7.3	3.6	0.4	1.1	3.1	2.5	29.8

SEASON	TEAM GP	GS MIN	FGM-A	   FG%	3PM-A	 3P%	FTM-A	FT%	OR   DR	  REB  AST  BLK  STL  PF  TO   PTS
'03-'04	DEN  82	82 36.5	7.6-17.9  .426	0.8-2.6	.322	5.0-6.4	.777	2.2  3.8  6.0  2.8  0.5	 1.2  2.7 3.0  21.0
'04-'05	DEN  75	75 34.8	7.1-16.4  .431	0.6-2.1	.266	6.1-7.6	.796	1.9  3.8  5.7  2.6  0.4	 0.9  3.1 3.0  20.8
'05-'06	DEN  80	80 36.8	9.4-19.6  .481	0.5-1.9	.243	7.2-8.9	.808	1.5  3.4  4.9  2.7  0.5	 1.1  2.9 2.7  26.5
'06-'07	DEN  65	65 38.2	10.6-22.4 .476	0.6-2.3	.268	7.1-8.7	.808	2.2  3.8  6.0  3.8  0.4	 1.2  3.1 3.6  28.9
'07-'08	DEN  77	77 36.4	9.5-19.2  .492	0.8-2.1	.354	6.0-7.7	.786	2.3  5.1  7.4  3.4  0.5	 1.3  3.3 3.3  25.7
'08-'09	DEN  66	66 34.5	8.1-18.3  .443	1.0-2.6	.371	5.6-7.1	.793	1.6  5.2  6.8  3.4  0.4	 1.1  3.0 3.0  22.8
'09-'10	DEN  69	69 38.2	10.0-21.8 .458	0.9-2.7	.316	7.4-8.9	.830	2.2  4.4  6.6  3.2  0.4	 1.3  3.3 3.0  28.2
'10-'11	DEN  50	50 35.5	8.7-19.3  .452	0.8-2.5	.333	6.9-8.3	.823	1.5  6.1  7.6  2.8  0.6	 0.9  2.7 2.8  25.2
'10-'11	NY   27	27 36.2	9.1-19.9  .461	2.0-4.6	.424	6.1-7.0	.872	1.5  5.2  6.7  3.0  0.6	 0.9  3.3 2.4  26.3
'11-'12	NY   55	55 34.1	8.0-18.6  .430	1.2-3.7	.335	5.4-6.7	.804	1.6  4.7  6.3  3.6  0.4	 1.1  2.8 2.6  22.6
Career	    646	646 36.2 8.8-19.3 .456	0.8-2.6	.322	6.3-7.8	.805	1.9  4.4  6.3  3.1  0.5	 1.1  3.0 3.0  24.7

Melo's career numbers are more of who he really is and I suspect that unless he makes a major change to his off season routine he'll stay about right where his career numbers are. So what we need is to figure out how to augment his game with players that can succeed despite his being a ball stopper. More half court players that fit into a style that is more grind it out than we've been in the last couple of years. I think adding even more defensive players along with some shooting and a couple more ISO capable players would make more sense.

Honestly i can care less about the nuggets i just acre about us and the fact that we have only 1 playoff win since the trade isnt a good sign. I dont blame melo but i do blame jim dolan

Going into the playoffs 2 years in a row is a step in the right direction. Just crap luck that we've been banged up both years. If we can somehow manage to get into the playoffs with a healthy sqaud we will be looking at a different outcome for a change.

Amare was giving us 25/8 and shooting over 50%. During which other guys like Gallo, Chandler, Fields... all looked GREAT and were involved. That was a good formula.

Running the offense through a guy who shoots <45% and pounds the ball and has the athletic perimeter players standing and watching will NEVER EVER win you anything but a first round exit. This is simply bad basketball.

fishmike wrote:bottom line: we must play team ball to win. Amare's game is a team ball game. Run the P&R, screens, motion, etc. Others get involved.

Amare was giving us 25/8 and shooting over 50%. During which other guys like Gallo, Chandler, Fields... all looked GREAT and were involved. That was a good formula.

Running the offense through a guy who shoots <45% and pounds the ball and has the athletic perimeter players standing and watching will NEVER EVER win you anything but a first round exit. This is simply bad basketball.

That was unsustainable. Amare was playing 40+ minutes a night during that stretch and he hasn't been the same since. Felton also was playing at a completely different level then anything he's shown in the rest of his career. Also, during that 13-1 stretch we played two teams that were over .500, Atlanta and Denver, and we went 1-1 against them. Immediately prior to the trade we were 28-26. All the Melo haters like to talk about how great we were prior to the trade when all you're really talking about is the 14 games we looked really good and not the 15-25 record outside of those games.

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:stupid.

When Melo learns to:
play defense
show up without baby fat
win a playoff series

We can talk about Melo being next.

When Amare stops acting like a ***** and show up playing defense and rebound like he was the next incarnation of Moses Malone than we can talk about winning a playoff series. As for Melo man up stop eating the Spanish food get off the couch and get to the gym.

Amare and his game have been deep in the playoffs... several times. Does his game has holes? Sure, but Ive seen Amare put up 25ppg in playoff series his team actually WON.

Ive SEEN a team built around Amare as the primary scorer and his 55% shooting go deep in the playoffs. Often.

I have to yet to see any evidence that Melo can be the same. Lets all pray he goes away or greatly changes how he plays basketball, else we can look to enjoy losing in the first round every year

No point living in the past its about what have you done for the Knicks . Not Suns or Nuggets. Amare hasn't taken the Knicks out of the first round and same with Melo, atleast Melo can say took part in all the games for the Knicks in the playoffs. Amare can't even say that. Anyway you look at it their past has no bearing on the future.

the past has no bearing on the future? What is that nonesense?

We added Amare and the Knicks became a playoff team
We added Melo and the KNicks became a... what did he add again?

The problem is Melo's game is based on holding the ball and jacking it. Plain and simple. That and its at a rate at 45%. This is a losing formula. It works against lottery teams to pad your win total. It does not work against playoff teams. Luckily we have know seen for 2 years in a row that defending Melo ball is incredibly easy once the playoffs come around. End of story. There is nothing you can say that disputes this. 2 teams, 10 years of playoffs and and 9 first round exits.

THATS the past present and future. Unless of course he changes his game. Why would he?

Fish you make good point as always, but every team has ball stoppers Kobe is a ball stopper, Jordon was a ball stopper, Lebron and Wade are ball stoppers, Durant is also a ball stopper. Ewing was one of the major ball stoppers in the game. Getting to the WCF as a ball stopper did happen and other ball stoppers are ging to be there and will win.

You point out all the negatives of Melo but you don't look at the positives of his game. Positive he is a scorer and it really doesn't matter who he goes up against. He is the only player who will go at LeBron and at time come away out dueling him. He is clutch, he rebounds better than Amare. You mention playoffs the last two years come on Fish that is not even fair what are you expecting out of him the teams have been depleted. His main guy is always gone and he is there trying to give his team the chance to win. You keep harping on what he did in Denver, Nene was his second guy in Denver. He had AI he is going up against The spurs that was when they are on title runs. Lakers a loaded team a coach who continuously out coaches pretty much everyone. No player is going to beat those teams hell LeBron got sent home by the Spurs.

When AI got there he was all to willing a teammate same when Billups got there. I believe that your dislike for Melo is unjustified. you need to get past the trade that is your hang up that is messing with you. Melo can be a better player that is for sure now the pressure is on him now that all his piers from his draft have a ring. Even Milicic I beleive has a ring.

If Melo ever needed motivation this is it He has to pull a ring out of his you know what. That is what is going to change his game, you want change Heat winning his piers winning will be Melo's reason to change.

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:stupid.

When Melo learns to:
play defense
show up without baby fat
win a playoff series

We can talk about Melo being next.

When Amare stops acting like a ***** and show up playing defense and rebound like he was the next incarnation of Moses Malone than we can talk about winning a playoff series. As for Melo man up stop eating the Spanish food get off the couch and get to the gym.

Amare and his game have been deep in the playoffs... several times. Does his game has holes? Sure, but Ive seen Amare put up 25ppg in playoff series his team actually WON.

Ive SEEN a team built around Amare as the primary scorer and his 55% shooting go deep in the playoffs. Often.

I have to yet to see any evidence that Melo can be the same. Lets all pray he goes away or greatly changes how he plays basketball, else we can look to enjoy losing in the first round every year

No point living in the past its about what have you done for the Knicks . Not Suns or Nuggets. Amare hasn't taken the Knicks out of the first round and same with Melo, atleast Melo can say took part in all the games for the Knicks in the playoffs. Amare can't even say that. Anyway you look at it their past has no bearing on the future.

the past has no bearing on the future? What is that nonesense?

We added Amare and the Knicks became a playoff team
We added Melo and the KNicks became a... what did he add again?

The problem is Melo's game is based on holding the ball and jacking it. Plain and simple. That and its at a rate at 45%. This is a losing formula. It works against lottery teams to pad your win total. It does not work against playoff teams. Luckily we have know seen for 2 years in a row that defending Melo ball is incredibly easy once the playoffs come around. End of story. There is nothing you can say that disputes this. 2 teams, 10 years of playoffs and and 9 first round exits.

THATS the past present and future. Unless of course he changes his game. Why would he?

Fish you make good point as always, but every team has ball stoppers Kobe is a ball stopper, Jordon was a ball stopper, Lebron and Wade are ball stoppers, Durant is also a ball stopper. Ewing was one of the major ball stoppers in the game. Getting to the WCF as a ball stopper did happen and other ball stoppers are ging to be there and will win.

You point out all the negatives of Melo but you don't look at the positives of his game. Positive he is a scorer and it really doesn't matter who he goes up against. He is the only player who will go at LeBron and at time come away out dueling him. He is clutch, he rebounds better than Amare. You mention playoffs the last two years come on Fish that is not even fair what are you expecting out of him the teams have been depleted. His main guy is always gone and he is there trying to give his team the chance to win. You keep harping on what he did in Denver, Nene was his second guy in Denver. He had AI he is going up against The spurs that was when they are on title runs. Lakers a loaded team a coach who continuously out coaches pretty much everyone. No player is going to beat those teams hell LeBron got sent home by the Spurs.

When AI got there he was all to willing a teammate same when Billups got there. I believe that your dislike for Melo is unjustified. you need to get past the trade that is your hang up that is messing with you. Melo can be a better player that is for sure now the pressure is on him now that all his piers from his draft have a ring. Even Milicic I beleive has a ring.

If Melo ever needed motivation this is it He has to pull a ring out of his you know what. That is what is going to change his game, you want change Heat winning his piers winning will be Melo's reason to change.

EWing was a ball stopper? MJ? Absolutely. Now go look at their FG% and compare that to Melo's. When you shoot over 50% your allowed to do that. When your not your just forcing up too many shots. Its simple math.

My dislike for Melo and the trade? Again... your waaaaay off. My dislike is that we have based our offense around a guy who forces too many shots and before he forces those shots the other players are standing and watching because he's pounding the rock. That + a low FG% = losing basketball. This is not hate or dislike. This is math. Its a losing formula for the Knicks
When Melo wins I like him just fine. He's ARod to me. Overkill, we didnt need that type of player... more stats and flash than wins.

Where are my anti Melo posts? I do appreciate what he brings, believe it or not, but we will never EVER win with this formula. Why do you think I harp on Lin being the future? Because we need someone ELSE to run the offense and Melo to take a Paul Pierce role.

If Melo is your finisher GREAT.

Sorry... but the formula for success should be a good PG who gets everyone involved. Feature Amare/Chandler on offense (high screens, P&Rs). Melo will get plenty of shots, great scorers (and he IS a great scorer) always do, and Melo should always be the one featured at the end of games and qtrs, especially on the low block.

This is just basketball sense. The only low % scorer who handled the ball as much as Melo and WON was Allen Iverson, and thats the best little man to ever play. Melo isnt an MVP caliber player. Thats not hate or dislike, its calling apples fruit spinach a veggie

MSG3 wrote:

JohnStarksFan wrote:

fishmike wrote:stupid.

When Melo learns to:
play defense
show up without baby fat
win a playoff series

We can talk about Melo being next.

It's not baby fat! It's taco/nacho/cheese-steak fat!
This was the start of 2009-2010 season... anybody know what the nuggets did that year?

Here he is at the end of March 2012. Smh.

Yea he was playing horrible at the end of March.....(*sarcasm)

Good point, but it's not sustainable if he doesn't get himself back into top shape. Maybe he's got a yeast infection we don't know about.