fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:How many teams have done this successfully? SAS and OKL, so maybe 1 or 2 teams per decade. We know that this is a monkey-see-monkey-do type of league when it comes to building franchises, but seeing just the 1 or 2 successful teams and ignoring all the other teams who have been trying to build thru the draft for years is extremely shortsighted.

More than the zero teams that have successfully starphucked.

did the Laker's draft Shaq? Did Boston draft KG or Ray Allen? Did Detroit draft Rip Hamilton, Chauncy Billups or Ben Wallace?

Just because MSG sucks doesnt mean drafting is the only way to win

Is definitely not the only way to win, but the Lakers and Dallas acquired their franchise players (Kobe and Nowitski) on draft night as well.

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:How many teams have done this successfully? SAS and OKL, so maybe 1 or 2 teams per decade. We know that this is a monkey-see-monkey-do type of league when it comes to building franchises, but seeing just the 1 or 2 successful teams and ignoring all the other teams who have been trying to build thru the draft for years is extremely shortsighted.

More than the zero teams that have successfully starphucked.

did the Laker's draft Shaq? Did Boston draft KG or Ray Allen? Did Detroit draft Rip Hamilton, Chauncy Billups or Ben Wallace?

Just because MSG sucks doesnt mean drafting is the only way to win

You don't understand starphucking. Those teams built through the draft, got at least one or two stars from the draft, and then sealed the deal with FA signings. There's a difference between doing a starphuck and the entirety of your philosophy being starphucking. They followed precisely one of the strategies I've argued for: http://ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=40602&page=#900634

I've not seen a definition of starphucking but I think of it as desperately overpaying guys who aren't that great, not as paying a lot to guys who deserve it. The "phucking" implies that it's based on immediate desire rather than a rational calculation. I'd call the KG, Shaq, and other examples "star-acquiring" not "star-phucking." But the previous paragraph would apply with other definitions of starphucking anyway.

Amare and Melo came from 50 win a year teams, go to the all star games and are elite scorers. Their value around the league has been established.

Its dangerous to judge talent when its not performing that well, just as its dangerous to judge it when its overachieving, and the Knicks did not have a good year last year.

The Knicks didnt trade the #1 pick, or a top 5 pick for anyone on this current team. Isiah is gone.

You can hate (understandable) Dolan for the starphucking all you want, but lets not pretend there was another clear option to take. You sell it like we passed on building a team like OKC has, in favor of Melo/Amare and thats simply not the case. The Knicks situation had nothing to do with that.

It would have been nice if our free agent splash yielded Chris Paul and Lebron James to go with Tyson Chandler but that wasnt an option. Just like its better to draft Durant and Ibaka over guys like Marcus Fizer or Tyrus Thomas. Hell you pick #2 and the best player available might be Keith Van Horn.

The simple fact is while the Knicks are CLEARLY disfunctional, they do have a very talented roster.

They have one of the games best scorers. They have the DPOY at center. Their PF is a year removed from a monster all star year.

The Knicks are in a pretty good position. They still need to execute on some things, and there is no guarentee that will happen, but we arent waiting around for Gallo/Chandler and Felton to become Westbrook, Durant and Ibaka cause they arent.

The problem isn't that we don't have good enough front line talent, but rather that the TEAM as a whole isn't as deep and well constructed as the teams like SA or OKC. We knew this team was somewhat depleted and limited in how it could improve. Now it's gonna be up to Grunwald to figure out a way to add talent. My guess is thru the draft and undrafted young talent. Add a key vet and hope for the best. There are no clear answers to the problems this team has. They at least found one thing they could depend on and that was an identity as a defensive team. If they look for more players that have a tough defensive demeanor even if they're young, that could really help to define what this team will be.

Just don't start talking like this team is doomed, cuz it's not. Melo being a relatively young player means this team will have a chance to be good for a good number of years. He'll only be 32 in 4 years and that's not over the hill. I envision Melo being a bit like Paul Pierce as he ages. He'll still be effective in many of the things he's good at so long as he isn't severely injured. Guys that get it done without being high flyers tend to last longer.

Knicks must find a capable SG and backup PG. They need to add another PF who can actually score and rebound.

Although not any one player can lock down Lebron James, OKC is one of the rare teams that can come close.
Not only do they have multiple players that have the abilities to defend Lebron 1v1, but also with Wade as well, for the entire game.
On the top of it, they have multiple players that have many abilities to score, exhausting Wade and Lebron on both ends of the floor.

OKC's defense vs Lebron and Wade
--------------------------------------

Guard/Forwards
---------------------

The combinations and rotations of

Westbrook/Sefalosha/Harden on Wade *these guys take Wade's ability to post up, which not many players can do*

Durant/Sefalosha/Harden on Lebron

Ideally,

Sefalosha can harass Wade with his length and size
Durant defending Lebron *even with Duran'ts length, he does not have the ability to step out to guard Lebron's 3 point shot and his ability to penetrate and finish/Dunk
Westbrook's job would be to harassing the PG, while cheating at times, playing the passing lanes for the chance to cause a TO and ignite a fast break.

Power Forwards/Centers
------------------------------

With Perkins and/or Ibaka can be the help defenders, depending on who is playing the PF and C because of their abilities to spread the floor.
Since, the Heat do not have a true center/ post up player, Perkins isn't needed as much in this series.

Perkins/Nick Collison sets the best picks/screens on the team, making the defender choose
If the defender goes under the screen
it gives just enough room to pull up for a jump shot

if the defender goes over the screen,
it causes a mismatch as they roll to the basket or/and gives a step advantage to penetrate and finish at towards the rim.

Drafted at number 12, in the 2003 draft with Lebron/Wade/Melo, picked before Perkins, David West, Diaw, Barbosa, Lampe, Kapono, Mo Williams, and a few others.
He was from Kansas, the team that lost to Syracuse and Carmelo Anthony in the NCAA, projected to be a solid role player without a high ceiling.
Nick Collison, as a 7-8th man, is very under rated on the team, and while he isn't physically as talented as Ibaka, surprisingly he is still a good athlete.
He is the typical player that just knows his role, doesn't try to do too much, a hustle player, fights for position, and has a great bball IQ, with a great all round game.
Doesn't have the ability to create for himself but, he is surprisingly a good passer, is very strong, and does all the right things, playing a perfect "TEAM" game.
Whether his job is playing defense, taking charges, boxing out, setting screens, making great cuts, 2nd chance points, hitting the 17footer and ability to finish, with great hands.
He understands his role, plays it with perfection, whether it is as a 7th-9th man limited role or/and even starters role, excelling and doing whatever he is asked to do.
At 2-3m per year, with a multi year deal, he is a complete steal, aside from Harden and Ibaka *because of their rookie contracts*, he is the most cost efficient player on the team.

OKC, has good depth, with good bigs that move very well and are light on their feet.
In comparison to what Jared Jeffries defends for us but they bring much more than JJ on both ends.
Physically, they are blessed with athleticism, length, speed/quickness and offensively, much more polished.
They all have the ability to hit the 17 footer and will always get the look with the attention Durant, Harden, and Westbrook receives.

Miami HEAT
------------------

Because Durant, Westbrook, and Harden all have the ability to penetrate and have good range, they draw out Wade/Lebron and Battier from the paint.
Lebron/Wade are part of the top rebounders/ shot blockers, and the top defenders on the team.
Their best defender that is a big, is Joel Anthony, which has barely played since Bosh came back.
He is the only true shot blocker on the Heat, and is also a good rebounder and defender.
With all the players that can finish, beat the Heat of the dribble, and finish, I was very surprised Joel Anthony barely got any minutes.
I think, Erik Spoelstra, should get fired if he is unable to make this this finals a series.
While I think OKC is just too much for the Heat to handle, it is unacceptable how he didn't play his best defender in the paint.
OKC has shown, all year that, their greatest strength includes the multiple players with ability to penetrate and finish, in the playoffs, WCF, and in game 1.
Lets see if he makes adjustments to this in game 2.

nixluva wrote:This is how I view the Knicks right now. Melo is 28 and in his prime. STAT is not a dependable star healthy wise, but has his stretches where he can help this team. Lin is 23 and a developing young piece of the puzzle. Shump is 21 and a developing young piece as well. Then you have Tyson who at 29 is still a guy that is in great shape and like many C's should be able to be 7' and long well into his 30's. This team has some good core pieces but needs to fill in around the core.

The problem isn't that we don't have good enough front line talent, but rather that the TEAM as a whole isn't as deep and well constructed as the teams like SA or OKC. We knew this team was somewhat depleted and limited in how it could improve. Now it's gonna be up to Grunwald to figure out a way to add talent. My guess is thru the draft and undrafted young talent. Add a key vet and hope for the best. There are no clear answers to the problems this team has. They at least found one thing they could depend on and that was an identity as a defensive team. If they look for more players that have a tough defensive demeanor even if they're young, that could really help to define what this team will be.

Just don't start talking like this team is doomed, cuz it's not. Melo being a relatively young player means this team will have a chance to be good for a good number of years. He'll only be 32 in 4 years and that's not over the hill. I envision Melo being a bit like Paul Pierce as he ages. He'll still be effective in many of the things he's good at so long as he isn't severely injured. Guys that get it done without being high flyers tend to last longer.

Knicks must find a capable SG and backup PG. They need to add another PF who can actually score and rebound.

It is being realistic, not negative.
Our team is constructed very poorly, the main reason why we do not have an identity with our starting core is because they do not mesh.
Not only do they not mesh, but they have too many holes to their games, in which do not compliment each other.
It is the same reason why our players have a hard time finding/developing their roles.
It isn't a coincidence why our 2nd unit players were able to produce better than our starting lineup all year, because they understood and complimented each other better.

If Amare rebounded better, defended better, boxed out, fights for position, develops a post game, be be able to hold his own, be a good help defender, finds back his shot.....

If Tyson can hit a 12 footer, develop a post game......

If Melo moves the ball, doesn't take bad % shots, can post up more often with players that spread the floor for him, comes to camp in shape....

Amare and Melo not only are poor defenders but they do not play well off the ball, they only know how to play efficiently with the ball in their hands
Lin needs the ball in his hands to be able to penetrate and needs players to play off the ball.
We need multiple players that have the ability penetrate and help facilitate in the starting lineup, with better defense, and the ability to spread the floor.
Tyson needs another big to compliment him and a G/F to be the anchor of the defense.

This is with our starting lineup alone, now our 2nd unit we need the same thing....

Miami is 10x better than us
OKC is 3x better than the Heat

we will not be able to improve till we get quality players which can't happen because those 3 alone take up almost of of the cap with their deficiencies.
With the veterans minimum to offer, it is impossible to fill all these needs.
If we do not win this ruling on early bird rights, we will be stuck in mediocrity at best.

This draft has many good role players to fill some of these needs.
It is our best chance to find cheap talents/contracts with multiple 2nd round picks and players that go undrafted.
How we acquire these picks and find a way to sign them, is our best chance.
I hope Grunweld finds some way to acquire them, with Woodson being able to develop some yoots.
If we can land at least 3 players somehow in the draft, that would be our best chance.

RonRon wrote:

Nalod wrote:Fire the coach? Really?

Can you get PHil Jax? Of not, its all subjective that a change is needed.

You have a team that might be OVERACHIEVING by getting to two finals in a row!

Maybe its fans expectations that Lebron and his superfriends should win.

The bench is a freaking joke.

Honestly, with the competition in the East, with the talent of their the Heat's big 3, it doesn't take much to go to the Finals.
I wonder what their record would be if they were to play in the West, they would be 3rd at best, with 6th being possible.

OKC
Spurs
Lakers
Memphis
Clippers *if Billups never went down*

So why fire him?

The team is flawed being top heavy and the chemistry is not right.

They look great on the fast break but other than that for the most part, one is watching the other.

Not ready to write them off until they are down 3-0.

Heat maybe flawed but there is still a lot there.

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:How many teams have done this successfully? SAS and OKL, so maybe 1 or 2 teams per decade. We know that this is a monkey-see-monkey-do type of league when it comes to building franchises, but seeing just the 1 or 2 successful teams and ignoring all the other teams who have been trying to build thru the draft for years is extremely shortsighted.

More than the zero teams that have successfully starphucked.

did the Laker's draft Shaq? Did Boston draft KG or Ray Allen? Did Detroit draft Rip Hamilton, Chauncy Billups or Ben Wallace?

Just because MSG sucks doesnt mean drafting is the only way to win

You don't understand starphucking. Those teams built through the draft, got at least one or two stars from the draft, and then sealed the deal with FA signings. There's a difference between doing a starphuck and the entirety of your philosophy being starphucking. They followed precisely one of the strategies I've argued for: http://ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=40602&page=#900634

I've not seen a definition of starphucking but I think of it as desperately overpaying guys who aren't that great, not as paying a lot to guys who deserve it. The "phucking" implies that it's based on immediate desire rather than a rational calculation. I'd call the KG, Shaq, and other examples "star-acquiring" not "star-phucking." But the previous paragraph would apply with other definitions of starphucking anyway.

Is Gasol really in a different class than Amare, Melo and Chandler? Because with Kobe they were a lottery team. Who were the stars that Detroit drafted? Unless your suggesting Tayshawn Prince was the glue and Wallace, Billups, Hamilton, etc were spare parts?

Amare and Melo came from 50 win a year teams, go to the all star games and are elite scorers. Their value around the league has been established.

Its dangerous to judge talent when its not performing that well, just as its dangerous to judge it when its overachieving, and the Knicks did not have a good year last year.

The Knicks didnt trade the #1 pick, or a top 5 pick for anyone on this current team. Isiah is gone.

You can hate (understandable) Dolan for the starphucking all you want, but lets not pretend there was another clear option to take. You sell it like we passed on building a team like OKC has, in favor of Melo/Amare and thats simply not the case. The Knicks situation had nothing to do with that.

It would have been nice if our free agent splash yielded Chris Paul and Lebron James to go with Tyson Chandler but that wasnt an option. Just like its better to draft Durant and Ibaka over guys like Marcus Fizer or Tyrus Thomas. Hell you pick #2 and the best player available might be Keith Van Horn.

The simple fact is while the Knicks are CLEARLY disfunctional, they do have a very talented roster.

They have one of the games best scorers. They have the DPOY at center. Their PF is a year removed from a monster all star year.

The Knicks are in a pretty good position. They still need to execute on some things, and there is no guarentee that will happen, but we arent waiting around for Gallo/Chandler and Felton to become Westbrook, Durant and Ibaka cause they arent.

But the draft isn't some panacea. First off, you need to get a high pick in the right draft; picking first overall in the Kenyon Martin draft isn't going to help you much. But let's say you do get lucky in the right draft, unless you're picking first overall you're at the mercy of the teams picking ahead of you; would we be talking about OKC right now if Portland had picked Durant like they should have?

VCoug wrote:How come people here believe how you acquire players is more important than acquiring the right players? Would the Thunder not be in the Finals if they had signed Durant as a free agent and traded for Westbrook and Ibaka? The reason you see so many championship caliber teams that drafted their best player is because that's the waist way to get an elite player.

But the draft isn't some panacea. First off, you need to get a high pick in the right draft; picking first overall in the Kenyon Martin draft isn't going to help you much. But let's say you do get lucky in the right draft, unless you're picking first overall you're at the mercy of the teams picking ahead of you; would we be talking about OKC right now if Portland had picked Durant like they should have?

The only way you'll pull off a trade for Durant is if you give up your other assets (perhaps the picks that you would have used to get Ibaka and Harden). You actually don't need a high pick (and in fact not all the players in your own OKC example were high picks!). Most GMs are still fooled by high volume, flashy, inefficient scorers. There are always gems that go well beyond the top five. Most basketball GMs' understanding of the game is where baseball GMs were in their sport in the 1980s.