Mray20 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:The documentary was really good. Actually, I would have like to have seen more footage from the practices. That was where the real battles and competiton was. As far as Isiah being left off, I thought it was a bit unfair. So Jordan and Pippen didn't want to play with the enemy (Isiah) but it was okay to play for the coach of the BadBoy enemies? Regardless of what you think of him, Isiah was a flat-out better player than Stockton and his resume suggested that he deserved a spot on that team. But as we now know, politics played a bigger role.

I liked it too, Barkley was hilarious, it was funnier overall than I expected. My guess is Jordan believed that Isiah had more to do with the cheap shots than Chuck Daly.

Stockton is the all time NBA assists and steals leader so lets not get carried away here. He deserved to be there as much as Isiah, as good as he was. Jordan and Pippen weren't the only ones who didn't want him on the team.

How am I getting carried away? Isiah was a better player than Stockton. Isiah won 2 rings and was named finals MVP in 90 finals. Isiah beat Jordan's team more than Jordan's team beat his. Not many if any players can stake that claim other than Isiah. Stockton was a tremendous pg, and he ranks as one of the best but I have Isiah ahead of him. Keep in mind, Stockton played 19 seasons so of course he's going to own a few records.

And you are correct, Pippen and Jordan weren't the only ones who didn't want him on the team. Karl Malone and Isiah got into it during a game where Isiah was giving Stockton the business. He was dominating Stockton and Malone retaliated by giving Isiah a harsh elbow to the head that drew blood. Also, there's a history with Larry Bird aswell.

Say what you want about him personally but Isiah deserved to be on that team he's the only player to beat Jordan Magic and Bird in the playoffs if I'm not mistaken, probably the greatest 6 foot player ever and one of the fieriest competitors and greatest players of all time

No one is arguing that he wasn't good enough.

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:The documentary was really good. Actually, I would have like to have seen more footage from the practices. That was where the real battles and competiton was. As far as Isiah being left off, I thought it was a bit unfair. So Jordan and Pippen didn't want to play with the enemy (Isiah) but it was okay to play for the coach of the BadBoy enemies? Regardless of what you think of him, Isiah was a flat-out better player than Stockton and his resume suggested that he deserved a spot on that team. But as we now know, politics played a bigger role.

I liked it too, Barkley was hilarious, it was funnier overall than I expected. My guess is Jordan believed that Isiah had more to do with the cheap shots than Chuck Daly.

Stockton is the all time NBA assists and steals leader so lets not get carried away here. He deserved to be there as much as Isiah, as good as he was. Jordan and Pippen weren't the only ones who didn't want him on the team.

How am I getting carried away? Isiah was a better player than Stockton. Isiah won 2 rings and was named finals MVP in 90 finals. Isiah beat Jordan's team more than Jordan's team beat his. Not many if any players can stake that claim other than Isiah. Stockton was a tremendous pg, and he ranks as one of the best but I have Isiah ahead of him. Keep in mind, Stockton played 19 seasons so of course he's going to own a few records. Stockton owned those records because he played at a high level for many years, that's a testament to how good he was, not a disqualifier.

And you are correct, Pippen and Jordan weren't the only ones who didn't want him on the team. Karl Malone and Isiah got into it during a game where Isiah was giving Stockton the business. He was dominating Stockton and Malone retaliated by giving Isiah a harsh elbow to the head that drew blood. Also, there's a history with Larry Bird aswell.

You are getting carried away when you say that Isiah was "flat out better" than Stockton. Isiah was a better scorer but Stockton was a better defender and PG. You make it sound like he didn't deserve to be on the team when you say that. My point was that Isiah and Stockton both deserved to be on the team. You make it sound like Stockton was lucky to be named. If you had said that he should of had Christian Laetner's spot that would have been something else.

If Thomas had shown some class and not walked off the floor after being eliminated by the Bulls, shown some sportsmanship, maybe the other Dream teamers might not have objected. That's what Rod Thorn implies in the documentary.

Laetner definitely didn't deserve to be on the team but the committee made it a point to include one amateur selection so Laetner couldn't be replaced. Does Stockton's resume suggest that he was dream team worthy, yes. But, if Isiah is included, then Stockton is the likely candidate to be replaced since he and Isiah play the same position.

Dont agree that John Stockton was a better defender than Isiah. Steals does not equate to good defender (See Iverson). Also, Isiah was at the top of one of the best defensive teams in the history of the league. Is Stockton a better purepg? Perhaps, but its alot closer than you think. I dont think its fair to penalize Isiah just because he was a better scorer than Stockton and his team needed him to score to win ball games. Isiah has a career ast average of 9.3 per and had seasons where he averaged 14, 11 twice and 10 ast per respectively.

I think we both agree that it was the off the court stuff (and the walking-off the court stuff) that kept him off the original dream team. It's funny, Magic was also rumored to have a hand in the 1985 Freeze-Out game Allstar game of Jordans. That's rarely mentioned.

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:The documentary was really good. Actually, I would have like to have seen more footage from the practices. That was where the real battles and competiton was. As far as Isiah being left off, I thought it was a bit unfair. So Jordan and Pippen didn't want to play with the enemy (Isiah) but it was okay to play for the coach of the BadBoy enemies? Regardless of what you think of him, Isiah was a flat-out better player than Stockton and his resume suggested that he deserved a spot on that team. But as we now know, politics played a bigger role.

I liked it too, Barkley was hilarious, it was funnier overall than I expected. My guess is Jordan believed that Isiah had more to do with the cheap shots than Chuck Daly.

Stockton is the all time NBA assists and steals leader so lets not get carried away here. He deserved to be there as much as Isiah, as good as he was. Jordan and Pippen weren't the only ones who didn't want him on the team.

How am I getting carried away? Isiah was a better player than Stockton. Isiah won 2 rings and was named finals MVP in 90 finals. Isiah beat Jordan's team more than Jordan's team beat his. Not many if any players can stake that claim other than Isiah. Stockton was a tremendous pg, and he ranks as one of the best but I have Isiah ahead of him. Keep in mind, Stockton played 19 seasons so of course he's going to own a few records. Stockton owned those records because he played at a high level for many years, that's a testament to how good he was, not a disqualifier.

And you are correct, Pippen and Jordan weren't the only ones who didn't want him on the team. Karl Malone and Isiah got into it during a game where Isiah was giving Stockton the business. He was dominating Stockton and Malone retaliated by giving Isiah a harsh elbow to the head that drew blood. Also, there's a history with Larry Bird aswell.

You are getting carried away when you say that Isiah was "flat out better" than Stockton. Isiah was a better scorer but Stockton was a better defender and PG. You make it sound like he didn't deserve to be on the team when you say that. My point was that Isiah and Stockton both deserved to be on the team. You make it sound like Stockton was lucky to be named. If you had said that he should of had Christian Laetner's spot that would have been something else.

If Thomas had shown some class and not walked off the floor after being eliminated by the Bulls, shown some sportsmanship, maybe the other Dream teamers might not have objected. That's what Rod Thorn implies in the documentary.

Laetner definitely didn't deserve to be on the team but the committee made it a point to include one amateur selection so Laetner couldn't be replaced. Does Stockton's resume suggest that he was dream team worthy, yes. But, if Isiah is included, then Stockton is the likely candidate to be replaced since he and Isiah play the same position.

Dont agree that John Stockton was a better defender than Isiah. Steals does not equate to good defender (See Iverson). Also, Isiah was at the top of one of the best defensive teams in the history of the league. Is Stockton a better purepg? Perhaps, but its alot closer than you think. I dont think its fair to penalize Isiah just because he was a better scorer than Stockton and his team needed him to score to win ball games. Isiah has a career ast average of 9.3 per and had seasons where he averaged 14, 11 twice and 10 ast per respectively.

I think we both agree that it was the off the court stuff (and the walking-off the court stuff) that kept him off the original dream team. It's funny, Magic was also rumored to have a hand in the 1985 Freeze-Out game Allstar game of Jordans. That's rarely mentioned.

Stockton made NBA second team defense 5 times. Isiah never made first or second team. As far as being a better PG, if you count the number of years that Isiah was in the league and look at the what Stockton did in the same span he averaged 2 more assists per game with less talent. Isiah had more firepower on his team, more all-stars, one of the best 6th men in the league ever in Vinnie "the microwave" Johnson, the best rebounder in the league and HOfer in Dennis Rodman, a HOFer in Joe Dumars, All Star Bill Lambeer, Second team defensive player of the year in Rick Mahorn. A bunch of those guys were either first or second team defense so its wrong IMO to give him credit for them being such a great defensive squad.

Like I said, its wrong to say that Isiah was "flat out better", that's the only reason I disagreed with you. They both have their strengths but neither was a good deal better than the other.

Isiah took 6 more shots per game than Stockton and only averaged 2 less assists. Stockton would sacrifice shot attempts for assists. Not knokcing Stock, he was a damn good pure pg but Isiah could have done the same. I've already pointed out seasons where Isiah averaged 14 ast, 11asts, etc. Also, you have to factor in the 2 championship rings Isiah earned aswell as the Finals MVP and beating Magic, Bird and Jordan something that John Stockton and the Utah Jazz cant claim.

Lets not make it seem like the Utah Jazz cubard was bare. Stockton had the benifit getting the majority of his assist from Karl Malone, one of the top 2 PF's the league has ever seen not to mention one of the best finishers the league has ever seen. Also, Stockton had the benefits of playing in a terrific PNR system. The same system that every team in the league has copied and implented in some way into their own systems still to this day.

Okay, how about this...Isiah was a flat-out better player than Stockton.

Isiah phucked up and his timing was most unfortunate.

And..........

He he was not liked, perhaps despised.

It adds up.

ChuckBuck wrote:Gotta agree with Uptown. Stockton was an all time great, an efficient pure point guard in the way Steve Nash is today. Thomas is a flat out better player at the point guard position than Stockton, in the same vein Chris Paul is better than Nash.

+1

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:The documentary was really good. Actually, I would have like to have seen more footage from the practices. That was where the real battles and competiton was. As far as Isiah being left off, I thought it was a bit unfair. So Jordan and Pippen didn't want to play with the enemy (Isiah) but it was okay to play for the coach of the BadBoy enemies? Regardless of what you think of him, Isiah was a flat-out better player than Stockton and his resume suggested that he deserved a spot on that team. But as we now know, politics played a bigger role.

I liked it too, Barkley was hilarious, it was funnier overall than I expected. My guess is Jordan believed that Isiah had more to do with the cheap shots than Chuck Daly.

Stockton is the all time NBA assists and steals leader so lets not get carried away here. He deserved to be there as much as Isiah, as good as he was. Jordan and Pippen weren't the only ones who didn't want him on the team.

How am I getting carried away? Isiah was a better player than Stockton. Isiah won 2 rings and was named finals MVP in 90 finals. Isiah beat Jordan's team more than Jordan's team beat his. Not many if any players can stake that claim other than Isiah. Stockton was a tremendous pg, and he ranks as one of the best but I have Isiah ahead of him. Keep in mind, Stockton played 19 seasons so of course he's going to own a few records. Stockton owned those records because he played at a high level for many years, that's a testament to how good he was, not a disqualifier.

And you are correct, Pippen and Jordan weren't the only ones who didn't want him on the team. Karl Malone and Isiah got into it during a game where Isiah was giving Stockton the business. He was dominating Stockton and Malone retaliated by giving Isiah a harsh elbow to the head that drew blood. Also, there's a history with Larry Bird aswell.

You are getting carried away when you say that Isiah was "flat out better" than Stockton. Isiah was a better scorer but Stockton was a better defender and PG. You make it sound like he didn't deserve to be on the team when you say that. My point was that Isiah and Stockton both deserved to be on the team. You make it sound like Stockton was lucky to be named. If you had said that he should of had Christian Laetner's spot that would have been something else.

If Thomas had shown some class and not walked off the floor after being eliminated by the Bulls, shown some sportsmanship, maybe the other Dream teamers might not have objected. That's what Rod Thorn implies in the documentary.

Laetner definitely didn't deserve to be on the team but the committee made it a point to include one amateur selection so Laetner couldn't be replaced. Does Stockton's resume suggest that he was dream team worthy, yes. But, if Isiah is included, then Stockton is the likely candidate to be replaced since he and Isiah play the same position.

Dont agree that John Stockton was a better defender than Isiah. Steals does not equate to good defender (See Iverson). Also, Isiah was at the top of one of the best defensive teams in the history of the league. Is Stockton a better purepg? Perhaps, but its alot closer than you think. I dont think its fair to penalize Isiah just because he was a better scorer than Stockton and his team needed him to score to win ball games. Isiah has a career ast average of 9.3 per and had seasons where he averaged 14, 11 twice and 10 ast per respectively.

I think we both agree that it was the off the court stuff (and the walking-off the court stuff) that kept him off the original dream team. It's funny, Magic was also rumored to have a hand in the 1985 Freeze-Out game Allstar game of Jordans. That's rarely mentioned.

Stockton made NBA second team defense 5 times. Isiah never made first or second team. As far as being a better PG, if you count the number of years that Isiah was in the league and look at the what Stockton did in the same span he averaged 2 more assists per game with less talent. Isiah had more firepower on his team, more all-stars, one of the best 6th men in the league ever in Vinnie "the microwave" Johnson, the best rebounder in the league and HOfer in Dennis Rodman, a HOFer in Joe Dumars, All Star Bill Lambeer, Second team defensive player of the year in Rick Mahorn. A bunch of those guys were either first or second team defense so its wrong IMO to give him credit for them being such a great defensive squad.

Like I said, its wrong to say that Isiah was "flat out better", that's the only reason I disagreed with you. They both have their strengths but neither was a good deal better than the other.

Isiah took 6 more shots per game than Stockton and only averaged 2 less assists. Stockton would sacrifice shot attempts for assists. Not knokcing Stock, he was a damn good pure pg but Isiah could have done the same. I've already pointed out seasons where Isiah averaged 14 ast, 11asts, etc. Also, you have to factor in the 2 championship rings Isiah earned aswell as the Finals MVP and beating Magic, Bird and Jordan something that John Stockton and the Utah Jazz cant claim.

Lets not make it seem like the Utah Jazz cubard was bare. Stockton had the benifit getting the majority of his assist from Karl Malone, one of the top 2 PF's the league has ever seen not to mention one of the best finishers the league has ever seen. Also, Stockton had the benefits of playing in a terrific PNR system. The same system that every team in the league has copied and implented in some way into their own systems still to this day.

Okay, how about this...Isiah was a flat-out better player than Stockton.

Nope, can't say that . When you factor in offense and defense its still a wash. Isiah took more shots per game but if Stockton did the same and had more fire power on his team he would have averaged more assists and pts.

Look at Magic, he had Kareem with an unstoppable sky hook, Worthy who would have been a franchise player on pretty much any other team except the Celtics, Byron Scott, who was for a stretch the best 3pt shooter in the league, and a "showtime" system which maximized his talents. Would he have won all those rings with Karl Malone? I think not.

Magic still is the best PG to ever play the game as far as skills go IMO. The same deal goes for Stockton, he didn't have enough talent with him to win a ring, but he was just as good as Isiah when you look at what they did on both sides of the court.

This is a very poor argument and opens up avenues for other non-realistic arguments. You cant move players around and say, "He wouldn't have won with this team, but he would have won with that one, etc" If that's the case, can I argue that Melo would have a ring if he played with KG, Ray and Rondo instead of Pierce? Lets give Lebron all 5 of Kobe's rings because those Lakers teams were better than the Cavs so if Lebron played with Prime-Shaq, he certainly would have his fair share.

You cant discount Isiahs 2 rings, in an error dominated by Magic, Bird, and Jordan. Who else can claim to have beaten those guys other than Isiah?

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:The documentary was really good. Actually, I would have like to have seen more footage from the practices. That was where the real battles and competiton was. As far as Isiah being left off, I thought it was a bit unfair. So Jordan and Pippen didn't want to play with the enemy (Isiah) but it was okay to play for the coach of the BadBoy enemies? Regardless of what you think of him, Isiah was a flat-out better player than Stockton and his resume suggested that he deserved a spot on that team. But as we now know, politics played a bigger role.

I liked it too, Barkley was hilarious, it was funnier overall than I expected. My guess is Jordan believed that Isiah had more to do with the cheap shots than Chuck Daly.

Stockton is the all time NBA assists and steals leader so lets not get carried away here. He deserved to be there as much as Isiah, as good as he was. Jordan and Pippen weren't the only ones who didn't want him on the team.

How am I getting carried away? Isiah was a better player than Stockton. Isiah won 2 rings and was named finals MVP in 90 finals. Isiah beat Jordan's team more than Jordan's team beat his. Not many if any players can stake that claim other than Isiah. Stockton was a tremendous pg, and he ranks as one of the best but I have Isiah ahead of him. Keep in mind, Stockton played 19 seasons so of course he's going to own a few records. Stockton owned those records because he played at a high level for many years, that's a testament to how good he was, not a disqualifier.

And you are correct, Pippen and Jordan weren't the only ones who didn't want him on the team. Karl Malone and Isiah got into it during a game where Isiah was giving Stockton the business. He was dominating Stockton and Malone retaliated by giving Isiah a harsh elbow to the head that drew blood. Also, there's a history with Larry Bird aswell.

You are getting carried away when you say that Isiah was "flat out better" than Stockton. Isiah was a better scorer but Stockton was a better defender and PG. You make it sound like he didn't deserve to be on the team when you say that. My point was that Isiah and Stockton both deserved to be on the team. You make it sound like Stockton was lucky to be named. If you had said that he should of had Christian Laetner's spot that would have been something else.

If Thomas had shown some class and not walked off the floor after being eliminated by the Bulls, shown some sportsmanship, maybe the other Dream teamers might not have objected. That's what Rod Thorn implies in the documentary.

Laetner definitely didn't deserve to be on the team but the committee made it a point to include one amateur selection so Laetner couldn't be replaced. Does Stockton's resume suggest that he was dream team worthy, yes. But, if Isiah is included, then Stockton is the likely candidate to be replaced since he and Isiah play the same position.

Dont agree that John Stockton was a better defender than Isiah. Steals does not equate to good defender (See Iverson). Also, Isiah was at the top of one of the best defensive teams in the history of the league. Is Stockton a better purepg? Perhaps, but its alot closer than you think. I dont think its fair to penalize Isiah just because he was a better scorer than Stockton and his team needed him to score to win ball games. Isiah has a career ast average of 9.3 per and had seasons where he averaged 14, 11 twice and 10 ast per respectively.

I think we both agree that it was the off the court stuff (and the walking-off the court stuff) that kept him off the original dream team. It's funny, Magic was also rumored to have a hand in the 1985 Freeze-Out game Allstar game of Jordans. That's rarely mentioned.

Stockton made NBA second team defense 5 times. Isiah never made first or second team. As far as being a better PG, if you count the number of years that Isiah was in the league and look at the what Stockton did in the same span he averaged 2 more assists per game with less talent. Isiah had more firepower on his team, more all-stars, one of the best 6th men in the league ever in Vinnie "the microwave" Johnson, the best rebounder in the league and HOfer in Dennis Rodman, a HOFer in Joe Dumars, All Star Bill Lambeer, Second team defensive player of the year in Rick Mahorn. A bunch of those guys were either first or second team defense so its wrong IMO to give him credit for them being such a great defensive squad.

Like I said, its wrong to say that Isiah was "flat out better", that's the only reason I disagreed with you. They both have their strengths but neither was a good deal better than the other.

Isiah took 6 more shots per game than Stockton and only averaged 2 less assists. Stockton would sacrifice shot attempts for assists. Not knokcing Stock, he was a damn good pure pg but Isiah could have done the same. I've already pointed out seasons where Isiah averaged 14 ast, 11asts, etc. Also, you have to factor in the 2 championship rings Isiah earned aswell as the Finals MVP and beating Magic, Bird and Jordan something that John Stockton and the Utah Jazz cant claim.

Lets not make it seem like the Utah Jazz cubard was bare. Stockton had the benifit getting the majority of his assist from Karl Malone, one of the top 2 PF's the league has ever seen not to mention one of the best finishers the league has ever seen. Also, Stockton had the benefits of playing in a terrific PNR system. The same system that every team in the league has copied and implented in some way into their own systems still to this day.

Okay, how about this...Isiah was a flat-out better player than Stockton.

Nope, can't say that . When you factor in offense and defense its still a wash. Isiah took more shots per game but if Stockton did the same and had more fire power on his team he would have averaged more assists and pts.

Look at Magic, he had Kareem with an unstoppable sky hook, Worthy who would have been a franchise player on pretty much any other team except the Celtics, Byron Scott, who was for a stretch the best 3pt shooter in the league, and a "showtime" system which maximized his talents. Would he have won all those rings with Karl Malone? I think not.

Magic still is the best PG to ever play the game as far as skills go IMO. The same deal goes for Stockton, he didn't have enough talent with him to win a ring, but he was just as good as Isiah when you look at what they did on both sides of the court.

This is a very poor argument and opens up avenues for other non-realistic arguments. You cant move players around and say, "He wouldn't have won with this team, but he would have won with that one, etc" If that's the case, can I argue that Melo would have a ring if he played with KG, Ray and Rondo instead of Pierce? Lets give Lebron all 5 of Kobe's rings because those Lakers teams were better than the Cavs so if Lebron played with Prime-Shaq, he certainly would have his fair share.

My point is you need talent to win. Isiah had far more talent on his squad but you discount that fact and you give Isiah credit for the Pistons being such a great defensive team when he had some of the best defenders in the league on that squad and you say that Isiah was a better defender when he never made first or second team defense. That's a poor argument.

You think Utah was going to win a bunch a rings with Eisley, Anderson, and Ostertag? Magic couldn't of won all those rings without all that HOF talent around him, Isiah couldn't of won without all that HOF talent around him, and that goes for most championship teams. When you look at what they did on both sides of the court, offense and defense, statistically Stockton was better in most categories and averaged one less turnover per game as well.

That's why I believe its wrong to say that Isiah was "flat out better" They both have their strengths but neither is better enough to be heads above the other.

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Gotta agree with Uptown. Stockton was an all time great, an efficient pure point guard in the way Steve Nash is today. Thomas is a flat out better player at the point guard position than Stockton, in the same vein Chris Paul is better than Nash.

+1

Lousy analogy. Nash was a better floor general than all of them but his defense was lacking. Stockton put up better numbers assists wise than all of them (only Magic has a better average) and he was a better defensive player than all of them except for Paul.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. When I'm ranking the all time best, I got Isiah ahead of Stockton as a better player.

Yup. If you were to rank those 5, it'd be:

Magic>Thomas>Stockton>Paul>Nash