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The Road to a Championship. If the Knicks don't have this, They will never make it to the 2nd round.
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DurzoBlint
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6/11/2012  12:35 PM
Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

After reviewing all of the games and teams headed toward a championship ring is this.

1. You will never win a ring if you have a starting 5 and only 2 players you can depend on to nail a shot.
Take a look at the Heat, every starter can nail down a 3 pointer or just shoot the ball. OKC is close but they only have 3 players in the starting line-up that you can really depend on the nail a shot.
I've watched every team in the play-offs and all the teams encluding Chicago didn't have many players on thier team you could depend on to nail down a shot. Defense they have but you need someone to put points on the board.

We can say what we want to say about LeBron and Wade and Bosh but when they get the ball you can always depend on them making a shot. Only Durant is as good but he is only one player. The rest like Westbrooks is a shot in the dark. Who would you rather have on your team? Wade or Westbrooks?It don't look good for OKC because Miami is the team with the weapons. James, Wade and Bosh. and to beat this team you would have to put an allstar team on the floor to beat them. the Maveriks beat them last year because they had the right team at the right time with 4 of the 5 starters you could depend on to knock down shots along with a big defensive center.

I am a Knicks fan and we can't put a winning team on the floor next season and or the following season.

Until we get a top draft player who can play like Durant, James, or Wade. We ain't going no where in the play-offs. I will continue to enjoy the Knicks wins but deep down inside I know that we ain't going deep in the play-offs. Lin will have a lot to prove this coming season because I do not beleive he is our point guard for the future. I want to believe but 25 games just ain't enough it just media hype. Lin please prove me wrong, Amare please prove me wrong and Melo learn to be a leader and make the rest around you better.

This should be obvious to anyone who watches the sport. The problem is in today's NBA you have shooting guards who can't shoot, point guards who can't pass, forwards and centers who can't rebound or block shots.

Anyone who truly believes the NBA is strong and growing is fooling themselves. Skill levels, instead of growing are becoming more and more stunted. Players with well developed fundamentals are fewer and further between. The age needs to be put to 21. Not because its fair or right but, because these non-fundamental players are watering down my beloved NBA.

the fact that you can't even have an unrelated thread without some tool here bringing him up make me think that rational minds are few and far between. Bunch of emotionally weak, angst riddled people. I mean, how many times can you argue the same shyt
AUTOADVERT
Bonn1997
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6/11/2012  12:39 PM
You sound grumpy. Lebron, D Rose, Durant and others are doing things never done before. Just enjoy it.
gunsnewing
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6/11/2012  12:42 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:You sound grumpy. Lebron, D Rose, Durant and others are doing things never done before. Just enjoy it.

Where's wade?

Bonn1997
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6/11/2012  12:46 PM
gunsnewing wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:You sound grumpy. Lebron, D Rose, Durant and others are doing things never done before. Just enjoy it.

Where's wade?


You never give up
RonRon
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6/11/2012  12:52 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/11/2012  12:55 PM
while Wade isn't as dominant as he once was, he is still a beast.
Thing is, he takes a lot of contact, charges, and his game needs his physical attributes to make him the All Star that he is.
He is still a top 5 player in the league but I do see some of his concerns with the way he takes contact throughout his career.
Many teams will still love to opportunity to add an ALL Star of his caliber.

Carmelo should be in the same category as Wade, even though Wade may be in decline, so is Melo...
More importantly, Wade is a great defender, with the ability to penetrate, versatile, dominant force, with great athleticism/size, and just plays very strong.
Melo ball does not win you championships, our trio + Lin isn't even as good as many teams.
We barely have draft picks, salary room, the ability to keep/add talent on FA, and our players do not mesh well.
We need an identity and the players that can support it.
Our weakness includes shooting, versatility, players that can penetrate/facilitate, and great defensive players outside of Tyson Chandler and Iman who blew 2 knee's out.


Championship Contenders
-------------------------
OKC
Miami
Chicago
Spurs

are far superior to us, have "All Stars/Stars" that are much more dominant on both ends, and that is the truth.
Many young teams have draft picks, cap room, players to develop, and the ability to acquire more talent, while we are very limited.

Playoff Contenders
------------------------
Memphis
Lakers
Dallas *depends what happens this off season*
Bucks
Clippers *team totally changed when Billups went down, I think they will come back a lot stronger this off season*


Young Teams that will climb the ladder
---------------------------------------

Wolves
Indiana
Philly
Houston
Denver


even "horrible" teams like
--------------------------------------------

Brooklyn Nets
New Orleans
Bobcats
Kings
Golden State * if they find a way to remove the salaries of Andris Biedrins and Jefferson *GM should be fired for using amnesty on Reggie Williams

They are going to have huge improvements, if not this year, in another 1-3 years.
While we have little room to improve, unless we at least move one of our big 3 to acquire cost efficient talent that FITS/Meshes together.
Many have or will have plenty of cap room to go with their rookie deals to build on, while we might not be able to retain ours and actually need quality improvements.
Veteran minimum deals may be limited in skills but that what we can only afford, more importantly is to have the players that we can use to build an identity, and team chemistry...

Like any Coach, for their system/philosophy to work, they need the right players that can execute it.
This season was weird, with our injuries, changing of coach, lack of 2 way players, and players that are limited in skills, it was very hard to execute.
We need players that have the ability to penetrate in multiple positions, while being good/great defenders to compliment Tyson Chandler, and shooters to space the floor.
All 3 things above, then we need players that MOVE and play well OFF BALL, with good spacing, which requires a high bball iq.

Linsanity was based on our defense and the ability to penetrate from Lin, with the above.
We were playing with 2nd/3rd players that executed.
No, they are not good enough to make us contenders, but that is the style/identity that we need to play in to take us to the next level.

Woodson and Team Melo

vs

Dantoni and Team Lin

our team was divided on 2 different identities with different priorities, while each have their own pros and cons.
We need a balance of both, with Woodson's ability to make our "stars" become at least a good defensive team, while being a good offensive team with Dantoni.
however, their beliefs on how to get the those points are completely opposites...
We need players that can balance both out, while understanding their roles as individuals and as a team.
Our 1st unit and 2nd unit should be cohesive and be able to execute their philosophy which may be different.
We need players that play to make each other better and attack/defend as a whole......


NOT STATS

JohnStarksFan
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6/11/2012  12:56 PM
gunsnewing wrote:We will see about wade next year. I doubt he ever plays a full season again with the way he plays

This is ridiculous.
Wade:
All-NBA 3rd Team: 2 seasons (this season included)
All-NBA 2nd Team: 3 seasons
All-NBA 1st Team: 2 seasons
NBA All-defensive 2nd Team: 3 seasons
Scoring Champ in 2009
Finals MVP: 2006
Career avgs: 25.2ppg, 5.1 rpg, 6.2 apg, 1.8 spg, .486 fg%
Has a ring and might get another.

Wade is a beast and is a better overall player than Carmelo Anthony HANDS DOWN. Anyone who says otherwise has been sucking Melo since Cuse days.

With that said.... LET'S GO KNICKS 2012-2013!!

gunsnewing
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6/11/2012  1:03 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/11/2012  1:04 PM
JohnStarksFan wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:We will see about wade next year. I doubt he ever plays a full season again with the way he plays

This is ridiculous.
Wade:
All-NBA 3rd Team: 2 seasons (this season included)
All-NBA 2nd Team: 3 seasons
All-NBA 1st Team: 2 seasons
NBA All-defensive 2nd Team: 3 seasons
Scoring Champ in 2009
Finals MVP: 2006
Career avgs: 25.2ppg, 5.1 rpg, 6.2 apg, 1.8 spg, .486 fg%
Has a ring and might get another.

Wade is a beast and is a better overall player than Carmelo Anthony HANDS DOWN. Anyone who says otherwise has been sucking Melo since Cuse days.

With that said.... LET'S GO KNICKS 2012-2013!!

Wade was clearly a better player than Melo in his prime. Scoring champion when Miami was a lotto team yes. What im saying is right now I rather have 27yr old Melo than 30yr broken down microfracture torn acl back spasms Wade. And again Wade playes with Shaq who would eat Dwight Howard for his lunch and now he is lucky to play with the younger less injury riddled best player in the world in Lebron and Bosh in their prime. Again Wade will not stand the beating. See penny, mcgrady, vince carter, michael finley for reference.

Oh and lets throw jason richardson in there too and jerry stackhouse.

Give me Melo over wade right NOW. Anyone who disagrees clearly has a melo bias

gunsnewing
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6/11/2012  1:12 PM
Its no surprise why a guy like ray allen has lasted this long. He was never a slasher and the offense never ran through him. He didnt have the ball in his handa every single play. Wade is toast
JohnStarksFan
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6/11/2012  1:35 PM
gunsnewing wrote:Its no surprise why a guy like ray allen has lasted this long. He was never a slasher and the offense never ran through him. He didnt have the ball in his handa every single play. Wade is toast

And since when is Melo Mr. Durability? He's played an 82 game season ONCE in his career (rookie season), and was riddled with old man injuries last year. Oh, maybe that's because he started playing defense for the first time in his NBA career.

I would still take 30yo DWade over 28yo Anthony. And as they get older, who is more bench prone?

Games played in the last 4 seasons out of 312
Wade: 281
Anthony: 267

Sorry brother.

gunsnewing
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6/11/2012  2:10 PM
I see melo like pierce having a longer shelf life because of the contrasting styles of play
yellowboy90
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6/11/2012  2:45 PM
GustavBahler wrote:OKC plays team ball. Westbrook can get selfish at times but the rest of the team shares the rock. I'm surprised that they get this label as being a selfish team. Durant is probably the most deferential superstar in the NBA.

BTW Papabear, I hope you will share some of your experiences as a musician on the road. I know I'm not alone in looking forward to it.


They play team ball yet they always rank low in assist. They are an all ISO team.
gunsnewing
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6/11/2012  3:00 PM
Yes and brooks learned from jvg. Master of iso see ewing & h20 led teams. Nothing wrong with some iso. See jordan and the bulls or kobe and the lakers. One common thread is they all played great defense. Mike Woodon demands defense. Just a matter of getting Amare to relearn how to play basketball. Erase the Dantoni influence in his game completely. Then we might compete with the heat, okc, spurs etc
GustavBahler
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6/11/2012  5:01 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:OKC plays team ball. Westbrook can get selfish at times but the rest of the team shares the rock. I'm surprised that they get this label as being a selfish team. Durant is probably the most deferential superstar in the NBA.

BTW Papabear, I hope you will share some of your experiences as a musician on the road. I know I'm not alone in looking forward to it.


They play team ball yet they always rank low in assist. They are an all ISO team.

Those numbers are deceiving. Watch the games and you see a team that moves the ball well and finds the open man. They knock down a lot of jumpers that way.

RonRon
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6/11/2012  7:09 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/11/2012  7:14 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:OKC plays team ball. Westbrook can get selfish at times but the rest of the team shares the rock. I'm surprised that they get this label as being a selfish team. Durant is probably the most deferential superstar in the NBA.

BTW Papabear, I hope you will share some of your experiences as a musician on the road. I know I'm not alone in looking forward to it.


They play team ball yet they always rank low in assist. They are an all ISO team.

Those numbers are deceiving. Watch the games and you see a team that moves the ball well and finds the open man. They knock down a lot of jumpers that way.

Westbrook takes many bad shots, something you CANNOT do vs the Heat because of their ability to finish back on a fast break.
However, plaing SA, I think OKC learned they must utilize the rest of the players instead of resorting to 1v1 with

Durant
Westbrook
Harden

My opinion is Westbrook isn't near the same skills as Durant or even Harden, he should never be shooting more shots than those 2, at least Durant.
Westbrook's strength is DEFENSE, something he should concentrate more on with film vs Wade this series.
Looking to facilitate, get Durant, Harden, and whoever is open going, instead of getting a stat for himself...

Papa Bear is right about the Knicks though, we just aren't even close to many of these teams.
There are probably over 12 teams that are better than us by a good distance, with the ability to continue to improve and add players.
While we are praying to find a gem to take us to the next level at the veterans minimum, it just is not happening....

muhaha
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6/12/2012  5:12 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/12/2012  5:14 AM
yellowboy90 wrote:They play team ball yet they always rank low in assist. They are an all ISO team.

It's true OKC iso'ed a lot this season but the big difference was:
Westbrook, Durant, and Harden all had higher isolation effeciency than JR and Melo!

Harden had the highest isolation efficiency in the league around 1.20 PPP (point per posession). Absolutely amzing efficiency! JR had one of the lowest at less than 0.70.

OKC can iso all they want with Durant and Harden but Knicks can't. If a team relies heavily on low efficiency plays, it's a recipe for failure. Plain and simple!!

GustavBahler
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6/12/2012  6:35 AM
muhaha wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:They play team ball yet they always rank low in assist. They are an all ISO team.

It's true OKC iso'ed a lot this season but the big difference was:
Westbrook, Durant, and Harden all had higher isolation effeciency than JR and Melo!

Harden had the highest isolation efficiency in the league around 1.20 PPP (point per posession). Absolutely amzing efficiency! JR had one of the lowest at less than 0.70.

OKC can iso all they want with Durant and Harden but Knicks can't. If a team relies heavily on low efficiency plays, it's a recipe for failure. Plain and simple!!

They are also the second best in the league behind SA in offensive rebounding efficiency. You add that to a squad that's 5th in the league in fast break points, the three time scoring champion, and it looks on paper like they're "all ISO" but they have won in playoffs in large part due to superior ball movement, not ISO.

Bonn1997
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6/12/2012  6:57 AM
muhaha wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:They play team ball yet they always rank low in assist. They are an all ISO team.

It's true OKC iso'ed a lot this season but the big difference was:
Westbrook, Durant, and Harden all had higher isolation effeciency than JR and Melo!

Harden had the highest isolation efficiency in the league around 1.20 PPP (point per posession). Absolutely amzing efficiency! JR had one of the lowest at less than 0.70.

OKC can iso all they want with Durant and Harden but Knicks can't. If a team relies heavily on low efficiency plays, it's a recipe for failure. Plain and simple!!


Interesting. Where did you get the isolation efficiency stats from?
muhaha
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6/12/2012  10:08 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/12/2012  10:15 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
muhaha wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:They play team ball yet they always rank low in assist. They are an all ISO team.

It's true OKC iso'ed a lot this season but the big difference was:
Westbrook, Durant, and Harden all had higher isolation effeciency than JR and Melo!

Harden had the highest isolation efficiency in the league around 1.20 PPP (point per posession). Absolutely amzing efficiency! JR had one of the lowest at less than 0.70.

OKC can iso all they want with Durant and Harden but Knicks can't. If a team relies heavily on low efficiency plays, it's a recipe for failure. Plain and simple!!


Interesting. Where did you get the isolation efficiency stats from?

I will make a new thread dedicate to Knicks offensive outcome for posession type and specific player.

Note: JR's iso efficiency is slightly less than 0.90 (not 0.70 as I stated earlier).
Harden's efficiecy is around 1.10 (not 1.20 as i stated earlier) My bad!

Bonn1997
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6/12/2012  10:37 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/12/2012  10:39 AM
Great; few people realize the importance of efficiency but statistically it is much more important than total points scored. Are those numbers calibrated (such that the mean is 1.0)?
gunsnewing
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6/12/2012  11:11 AM
Lets be fair hear we are judging Melo off problably his worse statistical season as a pro where for 3/4ths of the season he and the coach couldnt get on the same page and add the nagging wrist & groin injuries if course he iz not going to be as efficient. Yes Melo needs to take his game to the next level and conditionally but once he figures it out watch out. He is still only 27 and should be great for at least another 8yrs
The Road to a Championship. If the Knicks don't have this, They will never make it to the 2nd round.

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